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Polyfil Lids - 1
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 07:26 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Original 9er Tek Substrate Page

Recounted & Experienced

Cook Whole Grain Brown Rice according to the package directions, but reduce the water by 25% and leave out the salt, butter/margerine/oil whatever: all you want to do is cook one measure of rice in 1-1/2 measures of fresh water.

Simmer covered with the lowest possible heat and do not overcook. When the cooking time is over (30-50 min usually) turn off the heat and let sit covered in the pot for 30-45 min to cool some. Cook Slowly

Once it has cooled some remove the cover, fluff and mix the rice with a fork.

Scoop the rice out into jars with a large serving spoon. DO NOT PACK! You want the rice to be loose, fluffy, and very porus in the jars. Packing the rice down will mess things up. Don't get a bottom heavy jar like Breeze in Foil Covers...
Sterilize the jars in the PC for 30 minutes

Variations:

You can make up 1/2 pint, pint, even quart jars with this Tek pretty much like PF jars, that is you can cover the top with Verm and Shoot Spores or Liquid Mycelia (Honey/Dextrose) through the holes. Leave the Foil Covers on during Incubation.

Colonized rice cakes should be cased in something like 50/50 casing with plenty of Lime added. Cakes should not be treated like PF cakes in that if you place them in a fruiting chamber with a double-end casing the cakes have a higher rate of contamination (probably because the cakes are 100% rice)... Your mileage may vary.

Wide Mouth Quarts can be made up with this Tek. The colonized quart jars of rice can be broken up and used to make up Cased Beds. This is a good Tek for producing bulk quantities of substrate. It need not use verm and there is a minimum of mixing and measuring.

Cooking Rice in the jar works (as is done in other Grain Teks) IF you shake like the devil when the jars are still hot as hell coming out of the PC... Pre-cooked rice does not need shaking, you can fill the jar up to the ring line. Jars that do require shaking (such as Teks where grain is cooked in the jar) should not be over 2/3 full after sterilization.

And we all know that the more jars are handled the higher the contam rate. Cooking the rice first, fluffing it, then loosely packing jars works _much_ better.

With a Polyfill Lid you can tip the jar and squirt the needle right where substrate meets glass... Tip the jar up and inoculum trickles down the side and percolates through the rice. Inject as you roll the jar. Use about 5-6 cc's of fresh clean Dextrose per Quart jar, then roll and shake the jar to spread inoculum. It'll colonize faster than cakes. You want to hit the glass right above the substrate, then tip the jar up and shake gently to work the inoculum around. Liquid inoculum will not absorb on whole grain substrates as on PF substrate, the inoculum will cover a great deal of area (and volume) if it is applied properly; it goes twice as far.

A Polyfill lid substitutes for the verm layer in the top of the jar. But you can use an old PF lid by simply packing down some polyfill in place of the verm barrier. Even with an old PF lid you can cook up a completely vermless cake

Related Link: PSiLO187's Simple Bulk Spawn Production Tek v.6.6.6.2

Simple Cubie Tek : Casing Overview : PF Tek Homepage : Substrate : Vermless "Coir" Casing : Shroom Glossary
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 05:25 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to begin a nice discussion on why people use either whole grain brown rice only or brown rice/vermeculite.

I know when my friend first began, she read all these reports and suggestions on using brown rice flour mixed with verm and a dry verm barrier on top. She used that for a month or two until she felt she perfected that technique. (For her to feel like she's perfected it, she has to do 10 or more jars in a row with no contamination). She then read about using long grain brown rice instead of brown rice flour/verm. Still using a dry verm layer on top though. So she tried that, and lo and behold. It works, of course. And she noticed the whole grain brown rice colonizes so much faster than the brown rice flour. And she notices the yields are greater. Then she think to herself, why does she need the dry verm barrier, after all? Her techniques are as sterile as a hot oven door allows, and she feels thats sterile enough. Besides, the dry verm barrier just takes up space and she'd like to get away from using vermeculite completely as she feels that it's a useless inert ingredient in both her jars and her casings. She doesnt feel like she needs it at all.

So she moves on to just using whole grain brown rice as her substrate. This begins to work really well. She gets no contaminants even without the dry verm barrier ala pf tek.. She now uses no vermeculite in any of the process of innoculation or casing. And her yields are higher now. And since she's moved onto using micron magick filter discs, her colonization time has pretty much been cut in half.

So my question here is, why do people stick so long with the pf tek (brown rice flour, vermeculite, dry verm barrier on top) when just having whole grain brown rice seems healthier, more natural and just all around EASIER? And in preparing the substrate, whatever you don't end up using, you can eat!

The only reason I can think of for not using whole grain brown rice is if you simply CANNOT cook rice. If every time you try to cook rice, you burn it. Aside from that, using whole grain brown rice is so much easier. Hell, you can even add a little brown rice flour to it when youre cooking it to make you feel better :)
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Martaxus (Martaxus)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 06:05 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How is sterilization done with whole brown rice then? How much better were her whole BR yields this way?

I guess we're just resistant to change when working methods are being used...but I'm interested!
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 06:33 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sterilization is done the same way as brf/verm. In a pressure cooker for an hour or so (just to be sure). The rice is first cooked normally, as if you were going to eat it. Then it is stuffed into jars (Doesnt matter if you press it down a little as there will always be air pockets in fluffy rice). Then it is put into pressure cooker. After it cools, it is innoculated however you like.

She didn't exactly see a dramatic increase in yields from this, but she did see dramatic colonization time and she thinks she saw somewhat of a good change in size/potency. But that could just be her opinion. And you dont have to search far and wide for long grain brown rice! Its in every supermarket shelf in America/Canada/Wherever You Live.
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Martaxus (Martaxus)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 08:03 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup, that saves some gas and curious purchases. Roughly how many jars has she done this way? Any pitfalls along the way? How did the cakes perform moisture-content-wise? I like to dunk after birth & between flushes.

What cooked rice:water ratio did she use?

I've heard of micron magick filter discs before, but don't know anything about them. What are they used for, a replacement for the verm barrier? Are they important?

Sorry for the # of Q's :) I'm days away from doing another batch and had painfully long colonization time last try, probably due to the cakes being too tightly packed.
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 08:35 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im sorry, I shouldve mentioned that she does casings from these cakes. But now that you mentioned, the rice cakes stay together pretty well. Glued together by the mycelia. They;'re fine to dunk as she has dunked a few times before casing.

No extra water is needed when the rice is fully cooked. The water inside the rice is more than enough. The rice has to be fluffy and soft. Just follow the directions on the bag and dont include extra ingredients like oil, salt, etc. Just pretend youre gonna be eating very bland rice :)

She's done over 50 jars this way and is now moving on to using whole grains like rye and finch seed. The only problem she's run into with these is hitting a bowl of nugs while cooking the rice, forgetting she's cooking the rice and overcooking it. But even then, one time she overdid it on the rice, over cooked it, added more water and let it cook again... came out near perfect and a batch of rice was saved.

I urge you to at least try half of your jars with whole grain brown rice.

Also, micron magick filter discs are thin discs that you put on your jars instead of the normal lids and they allow full airflow back and forth in the jars (speeding up colonization dramatically) but not allowing anything larger than .3 microns through. She's never had a contam with these discs and they are not necessary and very optional. You can even drop em in the pressure cooker without a problem. She just puts foil on top of the discs in the pc just in case.
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 09:01 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A word to the wise, cakes made from whole grain rice contam much easier than PF cakes if they are double-end cased and placed in a fruiting chamber. This tek is a little more advanced and the cakes should be placed in a suitable container and cased.
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 09:26 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Nan, I was not aware of this as my friend never grows from cakes and does casings exclusively. Good tip!
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plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 10:38 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

where can i get some of these magickal discs? can you do syringe innoculation through them? are they expensive?
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Saturday, October 27, 2001 - 11:23 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.micronmagick.com/

$5 for 25 or $15 for 100
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An guy (Boomer)
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 05:19 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why long grain? Short grain too sticky?
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plinkerdink420 (Plinkerdink420)
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 06:34 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

are they ruined if you stick a syringe through them for innoculation... if one were to just put a peice of tape over the holes, would the filter still be good, or would you have to lift the lid for innoculation with these
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Martaxus (Martaxus)
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 06:36 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So making beds of colonized rice cakes should work well? Why are they more liable to contam as cakes, the direct exposure to air versus a verm barrier with beds?
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 06:57 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An Guy, I use long grain because that is what the original instructions I read a year ago said to use. You can try short grain. Also try wild rice and other types to see if it works.

plinkerdink, the discs are still fine if you stick a needle through them. You can either seal the hold with silicone sealant if you have some handy, or some electrical tape will do (I use electrical tape because it is non porous).

Martaxus, beds of colonized rice cakes should work perfectly fine. I'd also like to know why they're more liable to contam than cakes.
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 08:37 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know I am not sure why they contam easier, but they do if you do not completely bed them in casing. The exposed cake sides pick up contams at a rate that exceeds BRF/Verm cakes for some reason. I prepared pure rice cakes using exactly the same Tek as Marx2k, but when double-end cased in a fruiting chamber side by side with PF cakes, the pure rice cakes contamed before the second flush while PF cakes went three flushes (some PF cakes went four flushes even though they were exposed to contamed cakes in the same chamber).

However, pure rice cakes that were cased in pH stabilized 50/50 out produced PF cakes, and when the 50/50 casing started to contam the old casing was removed and replaced with fresh... Several more nice flushes were obtained. There's a lot of food in there.

It's a solid Tek (9er Tek), just don't treat pure rice cakes like PF cakes in that with a double-end casing, pure rice cakes contam faster.
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Martaxus (Martaxus)
Posted on Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 10:08 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exellent. Thanks for the info. I'll give this plan a run in a few days.
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An guy (Boomer)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 06:05 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

k- I'll try the short grain- I use Lundgrens organic short grain brown in my kitchen, so that's what I naturally reached for when I made up some jars.

FTR, I also use other browns from Lundgren, and a black and a red rice also, all whole grain, not milled, the work terrific- I have been putting a loupe on my mycelia, and it seems to me the first thing to colonize is the bran, the little pieces of it, and then the starchy inner particles get colonized. So far that I can see.

Ain't used any wild rice yet. I'll try my short grain regular stuff, see what happens. Hadn't planned on doing any casing if I could stay away from it, but from what you're saying I better find some threads and read up on it with a whole grain cake.
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 07:18 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do a word search in the Archives for "casing" as a topic. Lotta info in the basement on this. Hongus Tek works too.
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Brettiejams (Brettiejams)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 05:22 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey plinkerdink.... I always lift the lids to innoculate when using filter discs... and i only use them to do quarts of grain for casing. If you poke a hole in them there will be a hole big enough for contams to get through.

Also.. ive gotten contams growing IN the discs while using them......yes, that's right, IN them. I got the black pin mold growing in them one time and the stuff grew right through the filter and contaminated several of my jars.... they need a shot of lysol about twice a week during incubation to avoid this.

If you want to use a synthetic filter...I'd suggest a lid with a hole in it stuffed with polyfill. You can innoculate right through the polyfill and it is not as inclined to contamination.
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An guy (Boomer)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 06:57 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I'm going to do that- I'm learning...heh...just did one on polyfil and finally found out what the hell that is...

Re whole grain and it's slightly higher susceptibility to contam, and BRF lower suscept(I'm not gonna spell it again, dannngg)-

What about splitting the difference?

I grind my own with an actual hand-cranked grain grinder and can roughly set the size.

So, grain just on average, split in half or a few pieces- might not that be a little hotter than powder, but gain a little in immunity from pure whole grain?

Watching my own stuff, as I've mentioned, I've seen the spawn likes the bran first- it seems to be 'hotter'. So I can see why it would go pretty fast and flush a little hotter than powder.

But, the powder, from what ya'll are saying, seems to build some higher level of immunity.

So, I'm thinking the starches etc found in the core of the grain might build some kind of basic strength to offer that better immunity. But that it isn't as 'hot' of a food as the bran.

So, bigger chunks offer bigger air spaces, and bigger 'islands' of the bran outer coat, forming larger spawn points which make for a higher joi de vive, but still the core of the grain is exposed and fed off of easier than with whole grain. This in turn leads to the best of both worlds- faster colonization than BRF, and a greater level of contam immunity than with whole grain.

Boy do I theorize a lot...

The other thing- instead of 4 holes to a pf lid, has anyone tried, like 12? 8 around the outside, and a circle of 4 in the middle?

Speed up colonization some?

Like to say, youse are some classy folk, fuckin' period.

boomer
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 07:33 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We had the "number of holes" discussion
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Cbee (Cbee)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 08:30 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you need to have a pressure cooker to use the just rice tek mentioned above? Or can you steam them liek the pf tek, not having the funds for a pressure cooker sucks =) i wanna do rye
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Tuesday, October 30, 2001 - 09:43 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I pressure cook everything and have only messed with a steamer for PF jars once. You could test a couple of jars pretty easily, and it may work because the rice gets cooked for 30 minutes or so before the jars are filled. Then the jars gets cooked in the steamer for another, what, let's say an hour. Whole grain substrates are hard to sterilized (rye in particular)... If you were to try and experiment I would do this:

Soak the rice overnight in fresh water, this would hydrate any spores on the grain and may make it easier to kill them. Cook the rice for 30 minutes. Load the rice into jars while it is still hot, steam the jars for an hour.

I have no idea if it would work. But you could try it with 2-3 jars, let them sit after steaming for about 5 days and see if any contams pop up.

Best I can do for you, and it's just a guess. Anybody else?
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Karna (Karna)
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 10:30 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my humble opinion, short grain rice such as sushi rice is a little too sticky. It will prolly still work ok, but the colonization time may be greatly increased since it has a greater tendency to clump. If this happens, or if you overcook and are left with a soggy mass, addition of vermiculite will clear things up, make it more airy and less soggy. Of course then you're left with a quasi-pf formulation.
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Lichen (Lichen)
Posted on Wednesday, October 31, 2001 - 10:45 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have used long grain and short grain in my cooking and in mushroom cultivation, and I think short grain is higher in carbohydrates, and a stronger source of food for the human body. It does fine with pfcakes, too.
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 04:40 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think instead of using vermeculite, replace verm with ... corn meal :) or oatmeal (pre pressure cooking)... and see how that works out
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hippie3 (Hippie)
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2001 - 02:31 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i would not do that, marx2k, it would be too dense a mixture to colonize quickly.
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Marx2k (Marx2k)
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 01:22 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hippie, I suppose you are right.
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Lichen (Lichen)
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2001 - 01:54 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes, both oatmeal and cornmeal clump and become mush when cooked. You might try whole oats or whole corn grain. Corn like that fed to hogs is strong, though, and will need to be pressure-cooked (although I am sure you already use a pressure cooker, while I myself, using standard pftek, use a steamer.)

I have heard of people using chicken scratch with good results, but remember, you've got to mix an inert (or at least non-soluable) ingredient into the jar if you're going to put crushed or ground grain in there.

I have used short grain rice in pftek, and it works the same as long grain
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LOW BUDGET (2000flushes)
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 10:14 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

should you slice or crumble a whole grain cake to case?
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 12:15 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This depends on the casing Tek you are using. The PF Tek does not crumble or slice the cake, it cases the cakes in what is known as the "double ended casing"
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Hippie (Hippie)
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 01:23 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

slice the main pieces, then crumble to fill in the gaps.
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LOW BUDGET (2000flushes)
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 07:30 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

nan, i thought that one should not double end case whole grain cakes, is this true?
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2001 - 09:24 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yer right... I was reading "cake" not "whole grain cake"