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Mycotopia Web Archive Archive Air, Circulation, Exchange and Humidity. Theory: More Oxygen=Bigger Shrooms / Less Oxygen=More pins? Previous Next

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Archive through July 09, 2002shroomzer cubensisKarna15 1 07-09-02  07:02 pm

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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 07:13 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am going to add a note about air circulation which I was too tired to post last night, in response to the good doctor up there stating one air exchange a day is sufficient... For Him.

It depends on the volume of air being exchanged.
A big grow chamber, with lots of headroom, is going to hold a large volume of air.

My little cramped rubbermaids, where the fruits are trying to push the lids off, contain a fairly low volume of air compared to other grow systems I have seen.

Mine needs air exchanges several times per day, the air gets stagnant fast. Your grow chamber needs less air exchange, but I bet it's because your system hold lots of air. Mine is wall to wall, casing to lid, full of shrooms. They have to get more air than once a day or contams start ripping into the harvest.
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Brettiejams (Brettiejams)
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 08:14 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Fact 1) Pinning is usually done in a sealed jar correct? which means that there is lots of CO2 in a sealed jar and low oxygen levels (and light of course). So that proves that high CO2 allows pins to grow! (Listen up Anno)"- Shroomzer

Even that is innacurate, in my opinion.

You want to see a few pins in the jar so that you know the whole pre-pinning process is over, but I never let the entire pinning process happen in the jar.

Once I see a few pins I birth and start fanning,
and I've had plenty of success using this technique.
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 08:44 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alright. This is a pretty hot topic so I gotta get in on it...

Yes, CO2 is a byproduct of mushroom respiration and will build up (along with other gaseous artifacts of fungal growth) in a casing layer or at the bottom of a terrarium. This atmosphere is conducive to vegetative (mycelial) growth.

The presence of Oxygen (and other "fresh air" gases) will stimulate a fruiting response.

The reason behind this is found in natural growing habitats. When the mycelia is spreading throughout its substrate (a cow pie or whatever), it is enveloped in byproducts of its own respiration. Now, as it goes near the surface of the substrate it gets more and more fresh air and light. This is how it knows where the boundaries of the substrate lie... and thus, where it should grow toward and sprout mushrooms.

A mushroom is usually more robust when lots of O2 is present, because the fungus is more "sure" that this mushroom is in the right place. Lots of oxygen usually means lots of air flow, which in turn means lots of wind to spread the spores... so the fungus pushes lots of energy into growing those mushrooms that are in the best climates.

So: Carbon dioxide does not stimulate pinning.

Cabon dioxide does stimulate mycelial (vegetative) growth.

Oxygen and light (and cooler conditions, because mycelium puts off heat that is insulated within the interior of the substrate... this insulation goes away at the outer edges of the medium) stimulate pinning.

Oxygen stimulates (but does not cause) the growth of larger mushrooms.

As Imok would say, "Hope this helps"

-ion
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Imok Urok2 (Imok)
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 09:50 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 10:46 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

You want to see a few pins in the jar so that you know the whole pre-pinning process is over, but I never let the entire pinning process happen in the jar.



but i have, it's called the invitro tek.
and fact is the total eventual yields are quite competitive with birthed cakes, the biggest difference being that invitro fruit take longer to grow.
i attribute most of the slowness to the compression inside the jar, as ones i've removed portions of to gain space fruit faster.
and chronic's tek also shows quite clearly that the subject of co2 vs. oxygen is much more complicated than most seem to think.
chronic tek jars get very little air exchange, co2 levels remain high throughout fruiting and yet they fruit very well. and faster than invitro.
anyone care to try to explain that phenomenon and reconcile it with what you're saying about air exchanges ?
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 11:43 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More volume of air around the cake appears to produce faster fruit... Seems to me what you are saying.

You remove a portion of the cake to make room for fruiting. But that space is not a vacuum. You let more air in.

Chronics tek... Lets more air in still, and it looks to me like better performance still...
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Brettiejams (Brettiejams)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 12:16 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the fact of the matter is, that cubensis is has a very high tolerance for c02, and they grow in spite of higher c02 levels, not because of it.

Hippie, you yourself said that high co2 levels make smaller shrooms (typically small caps with thin stems). That is because they are growing in a less than ideal enviornment.

And to get back to the initial point,

With the statement that co2 causes pinning... how come most of the time with cakes, in my experience, the second flush is the best one?

On the second flush they just start pinning inside the terrarium without any jar to hold in co2 at all... and it is true that the double ended casing holds some c02 close to cake and you get good pinning there, but I also get plenty of pinning on the sides of the cakes too.

I realize there are plenty of ways that you can grow, because cubies are so hearty, but rather I am trying to state what the ideal growing parameters are.... asuming that you are not concerned with stealth or similar considerations.
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 12:53 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Light and cooler conditions also promote fruiting. I would assume that any "tek" that allowed for at least two out of the three main factors to be present would still yeild mushrooms.

Cake culture works, but I believe that the unnatural state (not having a casing or "skin" over the colonized substrate, and an axenic thallus) lends toward more leniency in terms of fruiting parameters.

Since the cakes have what could be considered full light and full air coverage over the entire outside of the mycelial mass, it fruits despite less than ideal conditions with air mixture... more open surface area = more points of respiration and "photon pickup" = fruiting without as much oxygen in the surrounding air.

This is just a theory, of course...

-ion
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shroomzer cubensis (Shroomzer)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 02:37 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

2nd flush for me also gives better yield. But thats obviously because its already started pinning. I had new pins on the 2nd flush about 15 hours after I dunked. I scraped them clean, but the not formations were already ready to bust at the soil level so no more CO2 was needed to re-pin.
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 02:24 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think we can explain 2nd flushes as the cake's now had more time, it's increased in mycellial mass and therefore can support more fruit.
i tend to go with ion's statement,
i think cakes are quite different than casings,
and unfortunately there's been no real study of cakes like there has been for casings.
cakes seem pretty much immune to co2,
and seem to need very little air at all.
quite the opposite of casings.