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Mazatecs, P. Mexicana and SclerotiaA Friend's CatA Friend's Cat11 1 05-13-03  02:06 pm

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bob swinx (Yogurt)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 06:27 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what strains if any of p cub. will produce sclerotia and can someone point me to a sclerotia tek that preferably does not use bags
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not *really* a Jedi (Mycofile)
Posted on Wednesday, July 10, 2002 - 07:03 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No strains of cubensis produce sclerotia. A few strains produce what some of us call psuedo sclerotia (thanks to workman for the term). PF classic, Penis envy etc. But even these psuedo sclerotia are not really much like sclerotia at all. If you want sclerotia, try mexicanna or tampeninsis.

No tek needed, just use grain in jars and let them sit in the dark for a couple months. Rye grass seed is prefered over other grains. Whole brown rice is also a good substrate for sclerotia production.
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Nilli Willis (Procell)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 03:34 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey! Mycofile, who posted the bulk neglect tek report at the shroomery?
If so, thanks for the great post. Helped ALOT
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 02:19 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that's him,
a great guy.

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not *really* a Jedi (Mycofile)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 03:11 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hm.....What? I don't get what you're saying hip.

All cubes fruit invitro (at least all of the many strains I ever grew or heard of). And yes, the key is light exposure (remember I came to the same conclusion as you did, right about the same time at DD?). But what I'm talking about with the psuedo sclerotia have nothing to do with that.

Penis Envy more so than any other strain in my experience produces some dense, funky growths. These growths do resemble sclerotia, but aren't true sclerotia. Some of the strange growths thrown by the PF strain have been likened to sclerotia. These don't occur only invitro. I've picked them from cakes, casing surfaces, burried in casings, and yes invitro too.

An invitro fruit just looks like an invitro fruit, not a sclerotia IMO. Funky nuggets of fruit with no cap, no gills, and no apparent form are what I refer to as psuedosclerotia. Anyway, they aren't really relevant to this post, cause yogurt wants real sclerotia I'm sure, and for that he'll have to look beyond cubensis.
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Jade GreenDreams (Jade)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 03:20 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

how challenging is it to make sclerotia?
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Mule (Mule)
Posted on Thursday, July 11, 2002 - 09:22 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sclerotia, production is quiet easy. If fact, you can use the PF teq for its production.With no need to birth the cake. All that needs to be done is to inoc the jars, and place them in a warm spot, alittle light has been shown to help but is not needed. The other thing is time while there be some sclerotia in as little as twenty days, it is better to give it 90 or more, the older the sclerotia is the higher the active content will be. The only draw back on using the PF teq for sclerotia production is that the stones will have Vermlite in them, most can be removed with a soft tooth brush after they dry. The last note is to use more water then the usal to make cakes this has been found to produce the beter results. The feild is wide open with this little has been done in the study of sclerotia, one thing of note because of the way it forms it is a perfect candent for substrate doping, with trypamines. Experments are being carried out now using melatonan. Now it a good time to start a bunch of jars, and put them in a box, tape it shut , and wrap it in xmas paper. Put a tag on it dont open before xmas, a long wait but well worth it.
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Jade GreenDreams (Jade)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 03:02 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tampenensis is a good strain to do this with?
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not *really* a Jedi (Mycofile)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 03:09 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes, it's about all that the tamp is good for in my opinion.
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Mule (Mule)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 03:48 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psilocybe mexicana, is the best for this. Spore works A strain has shown some uncredible results.
But tampenensis, will work also.
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Jade GreenDreams (Jade)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 05:11 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok i want to make sure i understand this..

1)basically just make up some brf jars with a little extra ccs of water (what would be an ideal size jar for this?)

2)pressure cook to sterilize, innoculate as usual..

3)put them away for 90 days? thats it? lol..

im very interested in this.. i read that sclerotia when dried retains 30% of its original weight. id imagine thats a pretty good yield of quality magic that could be obtained with little work?

lastly, if anyone here is an expert on sclerotia.. what sort of yields wet/dry could one expect from the ideal sized jar? (whatever that size may be)
Thanks
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Mule (Mule)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 11:57 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, its that easy. Jar size I would say that pints would be best, but Im not sure. I use spawn bags , rather then jars, but jars work just as well. As far as yeilds go They can very depending on spieces and strain. Here is a few links to some of the latest results of differnt people.

Millet from Forest Floor



Una from the shroomery has many post on sclerotia.
{note while he and millet both use grass seed, the same results can be had from brf}
#Post616445



Anno from the shroomery
#Post606965




While not as pretty as a fruited mushroom, they work. Also taste better.
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Imok Urok2 (Imok)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 03:04 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I modified your links Mule and inserted some of the pics from the posts you refered too.
Hope this helps :)
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lurker (Lurker)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 04:14 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is there an easy answer to the question: What are sclerotia and how do you use them? Thanks.
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Mule (Mule)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 05:41 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Imok Urok2 , thats much better. What is sclerotia ? Sclerotia is a dense matting of myclium growth. Because of its density, the drying wieght will about 30% while most mushrooms are about 10% . Why it is produced is unknown. Sclerotia has a both psilocybin and psilocin. The active content is about the same as is found in most strains of Psilocybe Cubensis. Most report that is a more mellow and thought provoking, (hence the name philosphers stones ). Potency seems to depend on the size and age of the sclerotia with larger, with older specimens being more potent. It is also likely that sclerotia grown at room temperature or cooler, (IE: slower) is more potent than those grown at 85F.Personaly there a favorite, I find a sunday affter noon on 6-10 grams of stones a plesent way to work in the garden, or spend time drowning worms (fishing). Please note with dose ranges I have been at this for more then 25 years, dont do high amounts if you havent done them , or have done them rarly, and never give that much to freind.
There good to eat affter they dry , they have a nutty falvor. We here like to mix them (or any shroom as far as that goes) in blender with V8 and a shoot of gin, hits harder for some reason. Any recipe that can be used for shrooms works as well with stones.
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 03:28 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i would think that one would be better off avoiding any vermiculite in the mix, as you would seemingly be eating it as it becomes embedded in the sclerota, yes ?
might want to stick to grass seed to be safe.
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Jade GreenDreams (Jade)
Posted on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 12:45 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

anyone know an exact recipe w/ measurements for what hippie just mentioned?
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Merlin (Merlin)
Posted on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 01:42 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think this may be what you're looking for, Jade. sclerotia
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Mule (Mule)
Posted on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 05:45 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also a straight rice substrate will work. Adding rolled oats, soy malt or soy flour helps in there production.
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 02:24 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cultivation of fruitbodies and sclerotia on sterilised grass seed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This document gives instructions on how to prepare substrate suitable for the cultivation of:

Psilocybe mexicana (mushrooms and sclerotia)
Psilocybe tampanensis (mushrooms and sclerotia)
Psilocybe cubensis (mushrooms; rye grain is preferred for this species)
Panaeolus subbalteatus (mushrooms)
Preparation of the substrate

The substrate is based on grass seed. The most commonly sold form is rye grass seed (Lolium perenne) but we have also used mixtures of different species with great succes. Make sure however that it is not treated with fungicides. If seed has been treated with fungicides it should say so on the packaging. You may have to look around a little bit to get some unexpensive seed (we buy ours from an animal feed store where it is sold as birdfeeding).

We use the following formula for 720 ml jars

110 grams grass seed
180 ml water
After the water and seed have been filled into the jars, the lids are put on but NOT screwed tight! The lids MUST remain loose! Then a double layer of tinfoil is crumpled over the lid and top part of the jar. Now the jars are ready for sterilisation.

NOTE: Different varieties of grass seed and even batches of the same variety can differ greatly in their ability to absorb water. Too much water results in a slimy clump of seed that cannot be shaken, too little results in substrate that is too dry and produces little or no mushrooms/slcerotia. You should experiment a little with these.

Alternatively you can soak the grass seed overnight in water and then fill the jars with soaked grass seed. This will produce a more homogenous substrate.


Sterilisation

The jars should be sterilised in a pressure cooker or autoclave, a normal pot will NOT suffice. First a layer of water is poured into the cooker. The jars are placed in the pressure cooker making sure that the lids are loose!Now sterilise the jars for one hour according to the directions supplied with your pressure cooker. If you are using bigger jars then the sterilisation time should be prolonged. (we sterilise 1.5 litre jars and spawnbags always for 2 full hours).Once the cooker is no longer under pressure the jars should be taken out and the grass seed in the jars should be shaken loose to mix the wet and dry kernels. The jars should then be allowed to cool in a clean place. Always check the jars for cracks before shaking! When the jars have cooled to room temperature inoculations can take place. As the jars are cooling down the lids should remain loose or else they will pull a vacuum.


Inoculation

When the jars have cooled down they are ready to be inoculated. Don't be hasty, be patient! If you inoculate the jars while they are still hot the spores or mycelium might get killed. You can use a spore syringe, mycelium syringe, agar squares or whatever kind of inoculant you want. The most important thing to remember is to WORK CLEAN! When using syringes always flame the needle before commencing inoculations. When using agar squares always flame the scalpel! Be careful! ALCOHOL AND SPRAY LYSOL ARE HIGHLY FLAMMABLE!!!

Even a simple hood made of a cardboard box prevents prevent drafts and subsequently contamination. Do not expose the sterilised grain to air longer then absolutely necessary. Open the lids of the jars just a crack and work swiftly. After inoculation the lids of the jars are closed and the jars are shaken. Then the lid is loosened again so the mycelium will be able to breathe.


Colonisation

After inoculation the jars are put in a clean and draft free location. We normally put our jars at room temperature (20°C) or slightly higher. When mycelium starts to grow in only a few spots we shake the jars to redistribute the colonised kernels. This speeds up colonisation dramatically. Depending on the temperature, the species and the method of inoculation the grass seed can be completely colonised in 5-20 days.

When jars are incubated too long or at too high a temperature the mycelium will excrete yellowish metabolites. This situation is not good, these seed in these jars should be cased as soon as possible.


Casing (for the cultivation of mushrooms)

When the grass seed in the jars is completely colonised it needs to be cased. For this purpose
we use 1-litre disposable plastic trays. The colonised grass seed of one jar is shaken
loose are poured into a tray. If there are lumps within the seed these can be broken up with
the clean rim of the jar. The surface of the grain is levelled evenly. Using a big spoon and a
fork the grain is now covered with a thin layer (1.5-2.0 cm) of casing soil. We always try to
keep the casing surface even while at the same time keeping it rough (with small valleys and hills)
The cased tray is then covered with tin foil and put in a clean location (20-25°C).
Within a few days you will notice the mycelium growing through the casing soil.
Depending on the strain (some strains fruit earlier and easier then others) the casings are now
ready to be exposed to air and light to start the fruiting cycle.


Recipe and Preparation of the casing soil

We use the following recipe:

10 parts of peat
5 parts of vermiculite
2 parts of limestone (Marl)

The ingredients are mixed in dry form and while stirring water is added. The amount of water of course depends on the moisture content of the peat. The object is to get as much water in the casing soil as possible without turning it into mud. If the casing gets too wet just add a little more dry ingredients.
This casing soil is then filled into oven bags (made of nylon), autoclave bags (PP) or jars and
these are sterilised for one hour in the pressure cooker. When the soil has cooled down to
room temperature it's ready to use.

We know that some authors advise against sterilisation of casing soil because it would kill
all the beneficial organisms. We however have had only bad experiences with untreated or
pasteurised casing soils. We just tell what works best for us!


Fruiting

Some cultivators use very elaborate set-ups with humidifiers, cool-mist devices and such. We have never found this necessary. The fruiting containers that we use consist of simple clear plastic bins that are covered with polyethylene sheeting. These bins are stackable and thus very space efficient. For air exchange some hole are melted in the sides of the bins.These holes can be covered with mesh to keep out flies.Basically, five cased trays are put in one bin and the evaporation from the casing surface is enough to maintain the proper moisture inside the bin. The holes provide some air exchange. We always cold-shock the harder-to-fruit strains (we put them in the fridge for one night beforeputting them in the bins). For easy fruiting strains (i.e. Ecuador cubensis) this is not necessary. Psilocybe mexicana, Psilocybe tampanensis and Panaeolus subbalteatus do not benefit from such a treatment.The casings are misted each day and the casing is never allowed to dry out. Directly after a flush
is picked watering is increased because the maturing mushrooms pull a lot of moisture from the casing soil. It's very difficult to give explicit directions on a watering regime. You will have to develop a "feeling" for it.Depending on the strain the first pinheads will appear 6-15 days after putting the casings in the bins. The mushrooms will mature in 5-7 days after which they can be picked. We normally let the casings produce 3 flushes, but they may (when watered properly) Psilocybe mexicana usually produces one big flush and a small second flush. Other mentioned species produce more constant.

Keep the surface of the casing as clean as possible by removing dead pinheads (aborts) as these can lead to moulds showing up on the casing surface.




Sclerotia

The mycelium of Psilocybe tampanensis and Psilocybe mexicana can produce sclerotia while still in the jar. Colonised grass seed need not be cased for this to happen. In our experience (with tampanensis) slcerotia will continue to enlarge until 4 months after inoculation. The jars should be put in a clean (preferably dark) location. Sclerotia of these species also form in the casing layer of cased trays.
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 02:25 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

.
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Jade GreenDreams (Jade)
Posted on Sunday, July 14, 2002 - 08:08 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what kind of considerations should be taken when deciding how much to dose? (fresh and wet). for example, how much sclerotia would one need to take (wet and dry) to have a trip the equivelent of 2 grams dry of typical shrooms?
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Dirty Wop (Anotherdirtywop)
Posted on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 01:36 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yum
looks like star crunch or peanut brittle:)
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Imok Urok2 (Imok)
Posted on Monday, July 15, 2002 - 01:56 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Hip, you want the pics imported to our board or leave them hosted?
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 12:25 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i'll import what i can.
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