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Millet's Tek - 1
First Bulk Grow a la Mycofile??9 1 05-03-04  04:18 pm

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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:04 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

reprinted from shroomery,
since our good friend mycofile is too busy to post it here.

=================================================
by
mycofile
Jedi Master

All the information below is an account of a particular adventure in mycology. None of it is recommended as the ideal, only a fictional account of how things can go. For example, peroxide is used in the grains even though it probably wasn’t required. It was simply to hedge the bets on the grain-to-grain transfers. As should be noted, the experimenter in this case was rather experienced, although an intermediate beginner with a head on his/her shoulders shouldn’t have much trouble with similar things.


A long long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, a tenacious mycophile tried to push the envelope of massive simplicity in bulk fruiting environments. At a point before our pictorial feast, we begin with a spore syringe of Psilocybe cubensis, Hawaiian strain. The syringe is used to inoculate birdseed. The birdseed spawns synthetic compost. The most charismatic fruit body is selected to continue its existence through the marvel of cloning. The rest of her life is the subject at hand.

Cloning

Harvest day for our main lady is a busy time. As such, a chunk is cut from inside her stem near the base. The chunk is rinsed in 3% H2O2, and placed in a small jar containing sterile distilled water and peroxide (roughly .0015% H2O2). A filter disc in the lid of the jar allows the gasses produced by the peroxide to be vented. The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes. Peroxidated MEA is prepared in the standard manner. Peroxide concentration is on the higher end of the recommended levels. The chunk is removed from the jar and placed on the agar. The plate is mostly colonized in a week and a half with temps hovering near 70 deg F.

Spawn

A quart of birdseed spawn is selected from several prepared in the following manner. Birdseed rinsed clean several times in cold water (which btw removes a lot of sunflower seeds if you aren’t careful, or want it to, sunflower seeds float and are easily poured off from the rest of the BS). Boil an excess of water first. Reduce heat once boiling. Seed is simmered on low for 30 minutes (no more since we will be adding peroxide later and don’t want too much moisture). The grain is strained, rinsed and dried thoroughly before being loaded into the quart jar, ½ full. The lid has a filter disc in it, but polyfill, or even coffee filters or cardboard can be substituted since we will be adding peroxide later. The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes. When cool, the quart is injected with 12 cc’s peroxide, shaken and inoculated in front of a flow hood with a piece of the peroxidated agar. Colonization is complete in a week with temps around 80 deg F. A huge filter patch bag is prepared with birdseed as above. Peroxide amount is proportional to that listed above. In the flow hood, the bag is inoculated with the colonized quart jar and sealed with an impulse sealer. The bag is colonized in 11 days at room temps.

Bulk Substrate Prep

A large trashcan is loaded with straw and aged cow dung appearing to be about 75% straw 25% dung by volume. A pillowcase with extra dung is put on top of mixture and weighted with a cinder block. The thermostat on the hot-water heater is turned up as high as it goes, 160 deg F. The trashcan is placed in a bathtub and filled to the cinder block with the now very hot tap water. Enough boiling water from a pot on the stove is poured into the trashcan to bring the temp up to 175 deg F according to a thermometer in the can. The lid is placed on the trashcan and allowed to sit for 45 minutes, at which time the water has cooled to only about 155 deg F. Big ass heat resistant gloves are worn, and the trashcan is inverted carefully for draining, not allowing any substrate to escape the can. The can is left inverted to drain overnight.

Spawning bulk sub

The cooled dung/straw is mixed with the bag of grain spawn and put into the fruiting container. Fruiting container is a big cardboard box a little bigger than 2’ square and about 8 inches deep, lined with several layers of plastic bags. The extra dung from the pillowcase is mixed with the remaining grain spawn and layered about ½ inch deep on top. The dung top layer helps to protect the straw from contams and moisture loss. Often large chunks of casing are removed with fruits, exposing the substrate below. With straw becoming exposed, this can be a bigger problem than if dung gets exposed.

Spawn Run

A perforated plastic sheet is laid over the box for colonization, as shown below. The mixture colonizes quickly due to the dung and the large amount of spawn.



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Casing

A casing of 25% verm and 75% coco coir (by volume) is prepared as follows. The verm is baked in an over for 30 minutes at 200 ish. The coir is hydrated in a bowl with boiling hot water. The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 and the mixture is hydrated to field capacity. The casing mixture colonizes rapidly as is the norm with coir, but retains moisture much better than coir alone. The same perforated plastic from spawn run is used to cover the box during casing run.

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Fruiting

The plastic is removed only once a day to expose the mycelium to light and to mist with tap water. The plastic is left off for only a few minutes after misting to allow the moisture to absorb. Pins show in a few days. Once pins are noticed, care is taken to not disturb them with the plastic. It is only loosely draped over the box.


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The daily (actually sometimes only every few days) misting and lighting continues while fruits mature. A few spots show a little tiny bit of overlay, and some casing is applied. Pin set is acceptably even. Note that absolutely no attention was paid to environmental parameters other than the sheet, the misting and occasional light when the box was checked on. The box simply sat on the dirty floor of a well-used closet, and enjoyed typical room temperatures.

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The caps seemed to be rather light for the strain, likely attributable to the lack of light exposure. And of course all fruits were harvested before committing the sin of over maturation. (My humble opinion only of course). A tip is to water the casing surface just before harvest. This helps to minimize the chunks of casing that are pulled up with the fruits if the casing has dried out.

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Nearly all fruits weighed in at roughly 30-50 grams wet, of course some heavier, some of the few aborts were lighter. total yield for first flush was 8 oz dry. Very similar 2nd and 3rd flushes followed, each with even less time being covered by the plastic sheet. For each harvest, everything large enough to be harvested without touching the casing was removed. Then a light sprinkling of casing mixture was sprinkled over the surface and used to fill the divits left from harvesting shrooms.

Repeat Experiment

This experiment was repeated several months later to prove it wasn't a fluke. This time, a different strain was used and one of the boxes was only half filled.

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Some random second or third flush shrooms show that dung/straw can make some downright humongus fruits, even if you don't take special care of it.

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And this proves that I occasionaly missed the perfect harvest time and accidentally let a fruit mature.

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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:09 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, let's keep this in thread form until all questions have been answered. Then I can make a final draft with all the answers included. Let's see:

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I would like to know the signifigance in the h2o2.
What I mean is, when clonging, is it neccessary to soak the chunk?
And why did you want to "push the h202 envelope?"


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H2O2 is used to protect the grains. It's use would allow one to not use a flow hood or filter discs in the jars, having both, I used them anyway. In this case the peroxide simply added another layer of protection, especially since grain to grain transfers are more risky than other types of innoculation. It was used with the mycelium sample because a) the chunk was non-sterile b) it was put in the sterile jar of water in an open-air non-sterile environment and c) I knew it would be stored for a little while before use. I wasn't pushing the H2O2 envelope, did I say that? I was pushing the simplicity envelope. H2O2 just hedged the bets, simple is no good if it's not effective.

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1) Once you finished preparing the bulk substrate and spawned it with the grain, how long did it take for the substrate to fully colonize?


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Colonization time was just over a week. I'm glad youi asked though, I forgot about an important detail of the first tray. It sat for over a week after it was fully colonized, it over colonized. When it was cased, the surface was covered in the nasty yellow jelly that gets exuded. Some say this jelly is a metabolic product produced by the fungi (as seen in over-incubated jars) and it just gets produced more quickly when cubes eat dung. Others have speculated that it is actually material that is pushed out of the dung by the mycelium. I'd have to do some more research to determine which I believe, read around if you are interested.

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2) Would it be possible to use jars of colonized brown rice flour/vermiculite as a spawn as a replacement for the birdseed?


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Certainly. I will mention however that by volume, whole grains are much more nutritious than a cake which is mostly verm. An abundance of cakes used as spawn would ensure that the nutrient base of the straw is boosted just as it would be by whole grains. I'm not really sure at what level you will run into problems though. I only did once when a single BRF cake was used to innoculate a massive area of straw. This is only possible by grinding the cake as described by a few people over the years, but never really popularized. I believe a cat name old timer pushes this method. Best of both worlds is to innoculate with both grain spawn and a ground PF style cake or two. Colonization will be complete in just a few days and you will still get the nutrient reserve of the grains.

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3) There is concern of a moisture level in the preparing bulk substrate step. I understand that the water would be drained out from the trash can after pastuerising the substrate, but wouldn't adding too much water ruin the dung's nutrient level? [specifically, how much water was added from the hot tap water to the trash can? how about the hot water from the pot?


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No concern here actually. Dung, unlike castings are actually fine if not better once they have been leached like this. Cubes like the solids in dung, the un and under digested straw/hay whatever. These solids won't wash away in solution like the much more soluble worm poo which is diluted in undesirable solid bedding material. But to answer the question anyway, specifically I can't give you a measurement. Proportionally though it was enough to fill the can to just over the block holding the dung/straw down, and a large pot of boiling water over that. I guess the water level was a good 5 inches or so above the level of the substrate. Again I don't think this matters at all.

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would you mind taking a humidity reading from the room you are working in?


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Can't do it, I don't live there anymore. I'll check the book to be sure, but as I recall ambient rH was generally in the 30s-40ish range for the first experiment and higher (60s-80s) for the next two. Folks in the mid or soutwest will need to keep the sheet on most of the time if you want to try this. Again, use common sense to address any issues which come up, this isn't a tek it's a grow log.

In reply to:
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BTW. What was potency like on them large beasts??


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IME, maturity is the one thing which affects potency the most, not size. A closed cap shroom the size of your head will be as potent as the same strain grown in a manner to produce a closed cap the size of your pinky. So if you are referring to the mature beasts, they aren't as potent as the large closed caps, and the large closed caps aren't as potent as the aborts. They are relative to shrooms at similar maturity levels from different cultivation methods. Remember, the same thing applies to which flush the fruits came from. Total psilo potency as well as ratios of cin to cybin varry from flush to flush. You can't compare first flush fruits to 4th flush fruits without getting apples to oranges anomalies, which most people will contribute to fruit size, rather than flush number.


"From a certain point of view"


Edited by mycofile (04/16/02 05:19 PM)
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:11 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In reply to:
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how deep are those caseings?


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first one is rather shallow for the amount of substrate, about 3/4 inch. The others were an inch or 1.25 inches.

In reply to:
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and approx. how much, in volume, of dung/straw did you use?


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Considering the substrate is about 6 inches deep and 2 feet by 2 feet, I think that is pretty close to 2 cubic feet of straw and dung. If you are wanting to know how much dry substrate to use, use a little more because you compress it in the tray before adding the top layer of dung. I think I left that out of the original post, I'll add it later. Compress the dung straw as much as you can by hand, then add the top dung layer. You can just eyeball the dry amounts, if you make too much you can use it for something else or just throw it in your compost pile or trash, if you make too little, you just won't fill the tray as deeply. I think that's what happened to the tray in the foreground of the two tray picture, ran out of substrate. It's first 3 flushes were very comparable to the deeper trays, any difference came out in the wash.

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"The jar is left at room temperature until the initial harvest, drying and bio assaying are completed. A period of roughly 2 weeks passes." is this your neglect or is there another reason it sat so long?


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My neglect, if you call it that. Harvest time is a busy time. There are fruits to harvest and clean, drying to be done and journeys to take. So, there is no benefit to the fungus to letting it sit other than allowing one to not neglect more important things like cleaning and drying fruits.

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"The jar is pressure cooked to sterilize and also destroy peroxide decomposing enzymes." does this work for any substrate (such as rye for example)?


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Yes it does. Pressure cooking destroys the enzymes in all substrates which break down peroxide. Peroxide can be added to any substrate (agar, grain, flour mixes etc) after these enzymes have been dealt with. And you've got to pressure cook grain no matter how you slice the pie. After this log is completed, I'll do a detailed posts for peroxide agar as well as peroxide grain.

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"The two are mixed, a dash of lime is added to bring the pH to about 7.8 ..." two questions. did you use limestone flour (stamets recommended, commercial standard) or hydrated lime (popularized by ryche hawk and debatably inferior)? isnt the optimum pH lower than that? why use it at all? is it because the pH decreases with each successive flush and you wanted to get your fifth flush's worth?


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Bag from nursery/walmart etc simply labled "lime" and mentioning something about magnessium content being lower than such and such (3% maybe? I really don't know). I wasn't shooting for optimum pH to be honest. I eyeballed the lime, then figured I'd test it to make sure it was somewhere close. The reading seemed entirely suitable, so it was left where it was. Why use it at all is because I had a bag. In years of cultivation I never finished up the smallest size bag they sell. Also because coir based casings are slightly acidic. Sure they work without modification, but why not hedge the bets if it's cheap and easy to do so? Contams favor acidic environments. Cubes favor slightly basic casings. I'm trying to supress my perfectionist attitude which would normally tell people to go for optimums. In the real world, the optimum is slightly basic, any more perfection than that comes out in the wash, meaning benefits are not noticed due to slight detriments from something else you slightly bunged up. pH does decrease with time, but in reality, who cares? Who would really need a fifth or even 7th flush when yields are this high? More importantly is to hedge the bets against contams by making the soil slightly basic, which contams don't really love and which mycelium does, therefore growing faster. More important than modifying the pH though is the addition of the verm to the coir, preventing the coir from drying out as quickly as it does, especially when it doesn't have a terrerium protecting it.

Hope this all helps

"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:12 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In reply to:
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where did you get your dung?


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Gathered from the field. Anything that is old enough that it doesn't stink works fine. Every farmer I have ever approached has been friendly and more than happy to let me gather some as long as I promised not to let his cows out or to hurt them. (seriously, how is a skinny little man like myself going to hurt a 12 million pound beast on her home turf?) Apparantly they get many very similar requests from gardners every spring, so I just tell them it's for my garden, or my compost pile if it's not the beginning of the spring or fall gardening seasons. Only been turned down once, and that was because the farmer used them in his own garden.

In reply to:
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How would you compare the potency of these large shrooms, to lets say the potency of shrooms grown in smaller scale tek. For instance: 5 grams of these monsters compared with 5 grams of shrooms grown on a 12" bread pan casing.


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Your question was worded fine, I understood. Perhaps I should have worded my answer differently. To put it very simply, they are of the exact same potency, at least as accurately as a bio-assay can be. To complicate the answer a little more, make sure you account for things that do affect potency (flush number, isolated strain, fruit maturity etc) to make sure you aren't comparing apples to oranges.
For instance, 5 grams of those mature monsters in the last two pix would compare very equally to 5 grams of fruits of similar maturity from a 12" bread pan, or even a PF cake for that matter. The same would go for fruits with the veil about to break, or for aborts for that matter, as long as what you are comparing them to is fruit of a similar maturity. On the other hand, one of those 5 gram fruits in the last two pictures wouldn't hold a candle to 5 grams of aborts, regardless of substrate or grow method.
Which reminds me, reported yields don't include aborts. I'll check the notes to include in the final write up, but I know the first tray produced at least an ounce of aborts. Now talk about a special evening! The trays in the 2 tray picture produced many many many more aborts due to the over-prolific pin set, which of course I ate exclusively for a couple months!

I do hope all this helps, and I encourage any further questions. The questions remind me of things I left out or need to clarify when I make a final write up, not to mention answer questions other readers may not have even thought to ask.
peaces

"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:13 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Mycofile. Was the box of substrate left inside while colonizing?


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Yes it was inside.

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I don't want to leave a box of dung indoors because of the smell. What did you do to take care of that problem?


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For the life of me I don't know why this keeps coming up. Dung doesn't stink. IMO it smells better than wet straw, it's much more fresh smelling, more earthy. Straw smells like stinky collards. Dung only stinks if it was A) gathered when it was fresh and stinky or B) contaminated with bacteria. Anything contaminated with bacteria stinks, and it's easy to not gather stinky shit, although the farmer will look at you a little funny, or passing cars for that matter. "Hey hunnie, look at that stupid hippie in the cow field, OH MY GOD! He's sniffing SHIT!!!"

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The problem if I leave it outside, the colonizing time will take atleast 2 times as long because of the lower temperature at night. Is this true?


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I have no idea if it's true, it depends on your area. I would imagine that if you spawn it heavily, colonization time won't be an issue. But if you are going to colonize it outside, why not just grow outside? Those boxes were planted outside for additional fruits after they were thrown out.

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The only problem is that a big box full of shit sitting in the corner is a turnoff to some girls.


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Only if they know what it is. Once the cow pies are crumbled, nobody will know it's shit. I've repeatedly handed someone a bag of crumbled cow shit (crumbled so they wouldn't recognize what it was) and said, "does this smell funny to you?", they always say, "no it smells like dirt, what is it?" I say "it's dirt, I just thought it smelled funky, guess I was wrong". Nobody ever knows they stuck their face in a bag of shit. When I had a roomate, he would run out the door laughing his ass off everytime I would do that to someone...

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So did you dunk that after the first flush?


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LOL!


"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:14 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In reply to:
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How did you drain the straw/dung mix from the trashcan, without letting any of the substrate out? Just leave the lid on, and then invert?


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Acutally I left that part a little vague on purpose. The "trash can" that I used was really more like a barrel, which tapered a little at the top. I had a square piece of plywood which would fit in the top, but when twisted slightly it mostly closed off the top. That combined with the fact that on top of the dung/straw was the pillow case of dung which acts as a type of restraining screen prevented loss of any substrate. Now, I know that isn't going to apply to almost anyone out there, so I leave it up to you as to how you do it. You can put everything in laundy bags, just wrap it up in an old sheet, rig some cloth over the can etc. One of the most beautiful things of DIY is it's always unique.

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Is there any concern about contaminating the dung/straw while transfering it and before you case it?


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No, not other than common sense. If you drop some straw in your cats litter box, leave it there, don't try and use it. Don't use emery cloth to slough off dead skin cells from your elbow into the substrate etc. Properly pasteurized straw and/or dung are selective enough that you have at least a week before anything other than mycelium will be able to attack them. And after that, even if you aren't 100% colonized, the colonization you do have will be excreting enough antibiotics and such to protect you untill it's ready.

In reply to:
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how feasible would this grow log/tek be w/o the use of a flow hood?



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Very feasible. I had one, so I used it. Glove boxes, oven tek etc are good enough. I know plenty of people w/out flow hoods who use agar, grains and grain to grain transfers all the time. The addition of the peroxide makes it even more likely that you can be successful w/out the hood. If you can get grain spawn without a hood, then you can do this without one for sure. And you don't necessarily have to do a G2G transfer, you could just use a box of quart jars or whatever.

I've actually done every step above (cloning w/ peroxide agar, peroxide grain, peroxide G2G transfer) without an oven, glovebox or hood. But if you've got one or want one, use it.



"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:16 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In reply to:
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1) The manure type,[it may take longer?]


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Personally, I never had success with store bought manures. I know others have. Worst case scenario, the manure is worthless. Even at that, no harm, the mycleium will colonize it just like a casing material, even if it's mixed in with the straw. I just wouldn't make the top layer very deep. Just deep enough to keep the stray straws down.

In reply to:
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The colonized spawn is a multispore innoculation type.


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Not a problem. I do feel that isolated strains yield better, assuming that you have a good isolated strain. A low yielding strain could be isolated which actually yields less than a healthy multispore. Irregular pin set, and fruit maturation will be more noticable though. Again not a problem, you should still get fruits.
A few comments that weren't asked as questions:

In reply to:
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tupperware containers


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That isn't very specific, but if the sides of the tupperwares are much higher than the casing level, then you could have a few problems with co2. In the boxes above, the casing layer was only an inch or so below the sides, allowing co2 to spill over the side. In a 12" + deep tupperware, much more co2 will build up. Also, surface area could be important here, I don't know. If they are small rubbermaids, you may have drying out issues that didn't come up with the larger masses of substrate and casing. I don't know though, let us know.

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Pasturized with boiling water


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Hope you didn't mean that. Pastuerization temperatures are well below boiling. Boiling can lead to many troubles, including but not limited to bacterial bloom. Any pasteurization method should have covered that.

And about the beer kegs, sounds great. But the point of the water heater pasteurization as described above is that A) it's easy and B) it doesn't require the king cooker or anything else. Beer kegs do sound like they'd be a great thing for others to play with, but they seem complicated. A metal trash can is only $15, it leaks, but can be sealed, and a drain could easily be installed in the bottom. It wouldn't be great for traditional pasteurizing, but would work perfectly for the apartment dweller to stick in his bath tub for a hot water heater supplied pasteurization. Then again, I imagine some people have a couple old kegs they've been looking for something to do with...

"From a certain point of view
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:19 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In reply to:
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plan on innoculating the dung/straw with two 1 quart jars fully colonized with PC Equador. I also plan on doing a BRF/Verm grinding and using that also. Will this be enough? If possible, would you mind giving some insight into the best way to grind up a cake without contaminating it?


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Amount of spawn depends on the area and depth of the bulk sub. Some people say a pint per sq ft. is sufficient, I lean more towards a quart jar per sq. ft. The extra spawn speeds colonization which prevents contams from having time to get established. It also provides a large nutrient boost to the relatively poor straw. Ground cakes go a long way. Adding just one would probably allow you to cut your grain spawn in half, but you won't get the nutritioun boost. Grind the cakes in a clean blender or coffee grinder, just make sure they are absolutly positivly colonized first.

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A question about pastuerising...If I leave the dung/straw in the can even after the temps have started dropping down...say overnight...do I risk problems with contam? (ie have I just put myself back to the beginning by leaving it overnight in the cool water?)


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Don't do that for a few reasons. One, the moisture content of your bulk substrate will be too high. You don't want it that soggy. Two, the tea that is made by pasteurizing dung/straw is not as selective a media as the dung/straw itself is. The tea is much more contaminant prone than the sub itself.

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About casing: I know that I can case even without full colonization, is there a reason to let it colonize first then case?


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I wouldn't do that because the casing will not colonize evenly. The substrate doesn't colonize evenly, and therefore the mycelium will spread from the sub to the casing earlier in some places than others. this will result in uneven pin sets, overlay and stroma problems, ultimately affecting yield.

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With your colonization step......how many perforations and what size holes?


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Thats a hard one for me. I know from experience what's right, and just poked holes untill I thought it sufficient. I think Shroomgod's straw tek gives specifics which is where I first learned straw and perforating plastic. I refer you there.

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A question about the meaning of hydrating to field capacity...I assume that this means to the max point without water actually seeping out. (moist?)


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Not sure if field capacity really is the right word. It's a term I was taught when I was first learning about casings. I use it to refer to the correct moisture level where squeezing a handful really hard will cause some water to seep from between your fingers, but not much. In fact, with a coir/verm casing, most of that water will be sucked back into the mix when you release pressure. Moist, but not wet. You don't want to be able to ring it out like a saturated sponge.

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With the fruiting steps: I have heard that approx. 12 hours of light is optimal for frowth, yet your method clearly shows that it is not nesscesary for good shroom growth...what do you think about leaving the cover off for longer to expose for more light?


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Starting years ago when hip and I were playing around with colonizing pf jars in light, I learned that much of what you read about light and shrooms is bullshit. I don't think more light would be beneficial in that it would noticably affect yield, fruit size, time schedule or anything else. It would help if you were growing gnarly, crooked, bent stemmed shrooms. A little light a day is obviously sufficient for great results. Remember, even black plastic from trash bags allows some light through. Removing that plastic for a little while a day to care for and ponder the marvel of your fruits is enough.

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Also, with misting, how moist should the shrooms get before you allow them to soak the water up? Visible moisture droplets too much?


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I don't understand this question. It's not the shrooms you are misting, its the casing surface. You want to keep the casing at a similar moisture level to the way you prepared it initially.

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When harvesting the fruits...approx how often did you have to worry about seaching for abhorts which needed to be removed?


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I harvest everything within the same day. I may give some a few more hours to grow, but not more than that. When all the large fruits are harvested, I pick anything you can get without touching the casing. Anything else stays. It won't rot like many fear, but actually fluff back up like mycelium. Just pick them at the end of each flush harvest.

In reply to:
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Last thing...about pH how important do you think it is to adjust and does it change much with different strains?


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I've never noticed a big difference in pH susceptability from strain to strain. I'm sure there are exceptions to that, but I've never noticed it. pH in general is pretty important, but within ranges. Most common substrates and casing formulas can be used without worrying too much about pH. One thing to remember is that most contams favor a slightly acidic environment, while cubes favor slightly basic one. Might as well stack the deck in your favor while you can.

Boss came in, I'll answer every other question in this thread later this afternoon, promise!


"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:20 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Myco how do dry out that much? It seems like that would be hard.


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Well, Joshua shared a PM I sent him which basically describes it. The key is the combination of fan and dessicant methods. Probably the easiest way is with a 20" box fan, some 20" square frames of 1X(2,3 or 4) lumber depending, screen for the wood frames, the cheapest dessicant you can get your hands on, a tub to drain the dessicant in, and a way (big trash bag if nothing else) to seal the whole setup air tight. Wish I had pics, but I think you get the idea, especially if you read Joshua's post above.

Mr. Dasani wrote

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the conditions that i speak of are: brown rice flour + vermiculite colonized ecuador strain (clone .... not multispore) spawned on to 25% cattle dung 75% wheat straw. The wheat straw and dung mix was pasturized at 160deg F for 45 minutes. So far it has been one week after spawning and there is what seems no colonization of the ecuador mycelium on the dung/straw. (from the view of the surface). It seems that the little crumbles of substrate did puff up with more mycelium, but didn't "spawn" on to the dung.


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One thing in my experience that can do that is an overly wet substrate. How well did you drain the substrate? pH could cause the problem as well as using fresh dung. Unfortunately I really can't pin it down any closer, because all those things will have the similar result. No colonization. Sorry, better luck next time.

mrdasani wrote:

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mycofile, about the second modification, i wanted to know if you took any pre-steps to make sure the dung/straw would work. like such as checking the pH or making a small (very small) ammount your first time.


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Hehehe. Yeah, before these pictures were taken, I did a few years worth of tests which verified the quality of my straw and dung sources. I don't recall ever testing the pH or anything, but I did grow many times in very similar manners.

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I am thinking about what to do about finding out how to make sure i find dung with proper bacteria (or whatever necessary) in it.


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All dung has some bacteria in it, and I don't know of any special bacteria that might be in some poo that won't be in others. I think the key isn't the source, but the age. If the pies you are using smell, they aren't old enough. Propper cow pies should smell like dirt when they are broken up. Maybe a little mushroomy, but absolutely not stinky.

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the dung I shoveled up are from cattle, ....that is the same as cow right?


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so far as I know cows and cattle are the exact same thing. Kinda like the difference between humans and people.

Angel Magic 79 wrote:
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Great Job!!! Shrooms are pretty with not much effort. Mycofile - will you be writing a step by step tek for the Shroomeries grow cubensis section?


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I don't think so. I really don't view this as a tek. There are some things I would do differently, and there are others that I'm not sure are perfect. Seeing as how I can't do further experiments, I think this is all that it is, a grow log. Anno has asked for a clean up copy to be posted in the grow section, and I think thats fine. I'm just not comfortable calling it a tek. Really it's just a way to half-assedly do conventional cultivation and still get decent results. So yes, there will be a clean-up copy, but no I won't call it a tek.

suntzu wrote:
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Something that I think was a bit underemphasized [maybe?] in the responses to this success is the level of the casing relative to its container. Many large rubbermaid casings will fail primarily because the casing is sitting deep within a chamber [often airtight]. This favors CO2 stratification, usually requires some kind of manual work. The tray above, even when 'bagged', is not within a well of plastic like in a typical rubbermaid system. Mycofile mentioned this, but it seems like a major physical difference from other systems and worth mentioning again


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I think you are right. The sides of the trays should not be much higher than the casing level, allowing co2 to drain off. I believe that was underemphasized as well.

mr dasani wrote
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I have one comment I'd like to say about CO2 build up, I find from my experience with the myco enviroment, that it may not be entirely necessary to fan frequently.


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To a certain extent you are right, but it depends entirely on the scale you are growing on, and the environment you are growing in. A small closet having 1/4 of it's total volume full of bulk substrates is going to require much more fresh air than a tray or two sitting in a large room. In TMC stamets talks about "micro cultivation" methods where opening a terrerium to fan once aday is sufficient. The line between micro-cultivation and it's forgiveness blurs as one progresses in cultivation techniques and scale. This is one of the biggest reasons to head YMMV disclaimers because everyone's situation is a little different.

psycomyco wrote:
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How much spawn was used to inoc that 2x2 box of substrate?


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A big ass bag of spawn. I really can't remember, but a lot more than was needed was used. I may not have even measured it in cups or anything, simply eyeballed more than I needed and used that. When you are working with grain to grain transfers, bags instead of jars, and peroxide for protection, you can very easily create more spawn than you know what to do with. Sorry for not having a better answer but this is a log, not a tek. For future reference I would recomend using a pint or more per square foot if using relatively small grains like rye or millet. The more the merrier.
shroomasta wrote:
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He just wants to know if he should dump the boxes even with very good stong growth on teh dung/straw below the surface. Any suggestions or comments would be appreciated.


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well, I'm sure I'm too late to help, but I would have suggested just misting the top layer to see if it would colonize. You could pull it off it you wanted to, but you can always do that later if it doesn't start to colonize after you rehydrate the top layer.


"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:21 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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1>can you use plastic trash cans or is there a reason you used metal/ also when you let your stuff drain are you concerned with the fact that it would just be layin there drainin in your bath tub???


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I've used large 55 gallon plastic pickle barrells before, so I assume you can use plastic trash can. Never really worried about it being in the tub. Of course the tub was relatively clean. Not fit to eat off of, but not full of mold and shit.

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2>how much grain/birdseed would you recomened you say a bag but there are a few different size bags(jus wounderin)??


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I think I answered this above. I used the largest bags I could find. Sometimes they were from FP, sometimes other places. I had these enormous bags with 2 filter patches that I used sometimes, I have no idea where I got them. So far as recomendations, I would use at least a pint per square foot. Actually, that's what I'd recomend. Personally I would use AT LEAST a quart per square foot. But I liked overkill.

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3>can you describe how much plastic you used to line the box and how you perferated the top plastic?did you tape the liner in or just let it chill?did you sterilize the plastic?


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I think it was a couple (2-3) layers of plastic bags to line the boxes. It was taped around the outside where it folded down a few inches. Clear packing tape was used. No plastic was sterilized, I've always been confidant in new unopened plastic products as being pretty clean. Top was perforated based on my judgement and experience (I eyeballed it) which was aquired from shroomgod's advice on number and type of perforations in his straw tek. I don't remember how to describe it, but I know it when I see it.

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4>were you concerned with contamination when you aired them out?did you mist alot?


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No, I wasn't concerned with contamination when airing. In fact, I wasn't particularly concerned with contamination at all becuase I didn't really care if these succeeded. They were leftovers that didn't get into the terrerium. I misted when the casing seemed dry (and to be honest that is, if I even checked it that day). Sometimes it may have been twice a day, but usually only once.

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1....did you have any problem initiating pinning ?even if you did'nt how would you suggest getting it to pin if troubles accured?


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I had no problem initiating pinning. If I did, I would have reexamined the environment, especially the lack of light. If you want general pinning procedures read TMC's chapter on the subject. Post a specific question if you have one.

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2....have you had many contamination problems with this procedure?


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I haven't done this since the original three experiments. Contamination did eventually set in after several to many flushes depending on the tray. One tray never contaminated after many flushes, a move to a new location, and eventually several outdoor flushes.

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3....could you use just vermiculite without coir? why do you use coir?


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Coir based casing rock and rip! I've never ever seen any casing mix that could come close to the speed and quality of growth in a coir based casing. Casing colonizations are about half time in a good coir based casing. Growth is exponentially more rhizomorphic. If you think vermiculite casings are fine, then you can use them. Personally I wouldn't settle for fine when amazing is attainable.

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4....when you are letting the straw/dung drain do you do this in just your bath tub?


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I did in this case. You could do it outside, or in any other room of your house if you prefer.

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5.....how much spawn do you use, and would rye be fine


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already covered the amount question. Rye would of course be fine. For all practical purposes, grain is grain. It really depends on which one you can prepare correctly as to which one is best.

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6....do you mist the spawn at all?do you mist the casing at all?


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no you don't mist spawn, yes you mist the casing

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7...how long should i wait till i case?


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have you ever grown before? you case when the substrate is colonized

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8...do you case a special way?


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everything I do is special...-j/k no.

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9...i dont understtand how the h202 is used, i know you only used it as a saftey precaution but i want to do the same precaution.any explination would be appreciated?


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The peroxide methods virtually eliminate the threat of contamination. I think they were described pretty clearly in the original post, especially if you've heard of the methods before. Do you have a specific question?

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10..what kind of procedure did you follow when mixing the straw/dung with the grain, what did you mix it in?


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Can you not imagine how you could mix spawn and substrate yourself? I used a large tub, mixed the grain and the substrate by hand, then put alternating layers of the substrate and more spawn into the fruiting container. How you do it isn't really important. Simply get the spawn mixed in with the substrate withouth dropping it on the floor or wiping your ass with it. No real need to be ridiculously paranoid about cleanliness, but you can't be too clean.

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11... after the straw layer was set ,did you put more grain on top then a layer of dung??


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I think the specific way I did it was to shake the top layer of dung with some grain spawn in a trash bag, spread it over the straw, then sprinkle the little bit of remaining grain over the top. Again, I don't think this important, it's just the way I did it. All you need to do is thoroughly mix the spawn with the substrate. I do like to have a little spawn directly on top of the top layer of substrate though, thinking that the sooner the top colonizes, the sooner it will act as a protective barrier for the rest of the tray.


"From a certain point of view"
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 12:24 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


in case anyone misunderstood,
ALL of the above posts were made by mycofile at shroomery in a thread titled same as this one, in the grow logs forum there.
many thx, mycofile.
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Nan (Nanook)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 01:24 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Hip for getting that over here
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Nilli Willis (Procell)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 03:48 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I second that, I love this series of posts. Really openned a few eyes.
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not *really* a Jedi (Mycofile)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 03:06 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks hip. I especiall like:

"Hey hunnie, look at that stupid hippie in the cow field, OH MY GOD! He's sniffing SHIT!!!"

That has happened a couple of times while gathering shit from the field. Almost caused a few accidents.
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Jade GreenDreams (Jade)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 05:14 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lmfao @ a hippie spotted in a cowfield sniffing shit
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 06:31 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah, the good ol' days...

Mail, Hip and Nan.
Just need the pass, Hip. The garden domes should work :)
The I.D. pics for ya, Nan.

-ion
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Quietnick (Quietnick)
Posted on Friday, July 12, 2002 - 10:05 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW EXCELENT WORK !!!! Top Notch
Inspiring stuff. Makes you wanna work that much harder.

nICK
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 03:08 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

hippie spotted in a cowfield sniffing shit



hey, it wasn't me.

can't say that i totally agree with everything mycofile sez, but he knows his shit pretty damn good.



(Message edited by admin on December 01, 2003)
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Dirty Wop (Anotherdirtywop)
Posted on Saturday, July 13, 2002 - 05:23 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I got caught sniffin a couple hours ago...