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jakked (Jakked)
New member
Username: Jakked

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 09:59 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's the situation:

Spawned popcorn (knocked up with clone isolate) to worm castings, coir, verm (ratio about 50:25:25). The popcorn to casting ratio is about 1:3.5 and the container is a planting flat from a nusrey.

Incubated for one week at 83-86 in darkness covered with foil.

One of the flats fouled for sure. Smelled like sweet popcorn cheese if their is such a thing. Tossed it out...

The other flat has no smell other than moist worm castings and the flat is as stiff as a board (which indicates solid colonization). The issue is there is a bit of cobweb....

Illustration time:

Pic one shows flat and overall conlinzation.

Upload

Pic two show close of of cobweb.

Upload

What is the best plan of attack here?

Tentatively the plan is to:
·Treat the cobweb with peroxide solution
·Place in fruiting chamber uncovered for a day for to help zap cobweb (Chamber params: 71F, 80-90% Humidity, 12 hrs light)
·After one day of open air cover with clear lid and fan as needed and procede as normal...

}

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Yogi (Yogi)
Senior Member
Username: Yogi

Post Number: 413
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:30 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that doesn't look like cobweb to me. I would have lkleft the cover closed till it turned white though. from what i can see in the pic it looks like maybe starting trich (which can start out bright white before it turns green). if it is trich it is toast

(Message edited by yogi on July 28, 2004)
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jakked (Jakked)
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Username: Jakked

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:43 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's still covered...

Waiting for some direction....
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Suckerfree (Suckerfree)
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Username: Suckerfree

Post Number: 1643
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 03:04 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i'd shoot it with perox to see if it melts...

also.... did you pasteruize your worm castings?
did you poke a few holes in that foil?
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Yogi (Yogi)
Senior Member
Username: Yogi

Post Number: 414
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 07:21 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its not covered anymore since you opened it. Whatever it is doesn't look right to me
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jakked (Jakked)
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Username: Jakked

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:00 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sukerfree:
Q1 - Pasteurized @ 190F for 3 hours
Q2 - Took two sheets of foil to cover tray and the sheets weren't creased at all. That should have been plenty of air exchange.... Right???

Yogi:
Yes it was uncovered... But don't people check bulk grows periodically?

Isn't checking once in awhile essential? Especially near the expected transfer to a fruiting environment?

(Message edited by jakked on July 28, 2004)
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Luigi (Luigi)
Junior Member
Username: Luigi

Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:19 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spray with h2o2 and see if it helps.
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sleepwalker (Sleepwalker)
Senior Member
Username: Sleepwalker

Post Number: 234
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 03:47 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

190 is too high for pasturization and it is normal for castings to smell to high heaven after its been cooked.
"FORGET NOTHING AND LET NOTHING BE FORGOTTEN"
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Yogi (Yogi)
Senior Member
Username: Yogi

Post Number: 415
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 04:11 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess you are right. I just have noticed that its good to keep it open as little as possible till its ready to be fully opened. Its true you need to check so its a bit of a quandary. Sorry for the snappy answer, its not an absolute thing like a jar that needs to be sterile
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jakked (Jakked)
Junior Member
Username: Jakked

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:00 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sleepwalker: Castings smelled like castings after pasteurization, nothing to complain about. The contamed flat smelled like some seriously funky cheesy corn. 190F is too hot.... Not second guessing you here but figured 170-190 was the target range for pasteurization. Courious why 190 is too hot? What is the max temp for future reference?

Yogi: Didn't think you were being snappy. Just thought a serious error was made.... Although a week may have been a bit premature considering a ratio of 1:3.5 (Popcorn:Casting Mix). So you may have a point...

Any comments on spawn run duration considering the mix from above and a cloned isolate?
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I_am_me (I_am_me)
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Username: I_am_me

Post Number: 2264
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 10:49 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you over pastuerized which causes the castings to colonize poorly. Also I've noticed much better colonization of the castings of you mix them with coir and verm, not just verm or castings alone. Last small batch I did I over pasturized and it turned out rather crappy. Still fruited but with a poor pinset because it wasn't even colonized fully.

"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
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Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 459
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:18 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think i had that same problem with my castings right now. I did 2 qts spawn to 4 qts castings, and let it fruit without casing layer. I am only getting like 2 inch tall shroomies thinner than your pinkie finger!!! I had to cut the casing in half and throw a piece out, so i got to look at the inside of the casing. It wasn't fully white like my BRF cakes and so forth, but it did look like the myc was growing throughout the mix. I am probably going to dunk it tonight for like 12 hours, in the fridge, then we'll hopefully see some changes!!!!!
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Cheffy (Cheffybluegills)
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Username: Cheffybluegills

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:38 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my woo poo smells way sweet too , seem to be doing ok though. 50 woo poo 25 verm 25 coir, way over sterilized(24 hrs) oops, we'll see.
not knowing where you are going is the best way to find places you've never been...........
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I_am_me (I_am_me)
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Username: I_am_me

Post Number: 2268
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:48 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also I don't dunk castings really. Just mist it down between flushes and sprinkle a little sterile verm on it to absorb the extra water.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
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jakked (Jakked)
Junior Member
Username: Jakked

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 11:15 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Incubator started to get that same smell as the first contamed tray from above. So the remaining tray was open and examined again:

The nasty patch in the pics was dosed with peroxide and it reacted strongly! The executive decision was made to dump the tray under a bush as the outlook didn't look good. After dumping, the funky cheesy popcorn stink was very apparent. It was contamed just as bad as the first tray in the original post.

The castings and spawn below the contamed patch were devoid of myc. The rest of the tray was doing ok but not as it should have.

Lessons Learned/Ideas for Next Bulk Grow:
Cut pasteurization temp to 170
Increase popcorn to casting mix to 1:2 (respectively)
Decrease water content

The castings and spawn in the trays looked way to wet and would bet money that that was a major factor in the cheese rot infection.

On a positive note:
There was other foil cake pan tray that did survive this experiment/learning process. It is only a fraction of the size as the tray above and got a 1:2 ratio of popcorn to spawn. It is in a fruiting environment so the bulk grow process will be observed from A-Z.

Thanks for all the commnets and input!
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
Senior Member
Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 462
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:23 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, I_Am, don't dunk the castings??? Would this tend to lead to contams or something? I really want to dunk my castings, because the fruits they have been putting out SUCK!! They are only growing here and there, and are really thin and small. I think this may be due to the fact that the casing doesn't have a lot of water.
If I were to just mist the casing, don't you think that the Myc on top would get hurt from the water, and maybe contam? I can put the whole casing in its tray and into the fridge, so no contams would show there. The only problem i think is the density of the casing, soaking up to much water and ending up contaming. What is the best bet to do here?
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
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Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 464
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 04:33 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bUMP?
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I_am_me (I_am_me)
Senior Member
Username: I_am_me

Post Number: 2277
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 05:28 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't dunk castings because they easily turn to mud and fall apart. Also they seem to hold water quite well so only misting the casing layer seems to be needed to support a second flush.

If you are having crappy small fruits only from your castings something isn't quite right. I'm not sure what but I get huge fruits everytime, regardless of strain.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
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I_am_me (I_am_me)
Senior Member
Username: I_am_me

Post Number: 2278
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 05:29 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also if you want it to work really really well try using a cloned strain. That will help pinset and insure that it isn't your substrain thats the problem. Pics help too....
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
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jakked (Jakked)
Junior Member
Username: Jakked

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 08:05 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Awhile back someone mentioned not casing worm castings on the first flush. They said the castings were the only bulk substrate they'd seen that does better without a casing layer.

Agree/Disagree?

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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
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Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 465
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 08:05 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, the thing is, i have two casings going of WBS and castings mix. i spawned each no more then 1:3 spawn to worm poo mix ratio. I used the same syringes from a honey jar that i made in april of tapalapas. I used them on BRF crumbled and cased with coir and verm and they were much bigger and thicker.
I didn't patureize the worm poo in a boiling pan, I did it by ; using a 50% worm poo+25% verm+25% coir. I mixed them all together till i got a good consistancy of watter.(squeezed hard it would drip out a few drops.) I then put this mix into qt jars filled to 1/2" from top. Put lids and so forth on jars( only one hole in the middle and tinfoil on top). I boiled a pot of water and then put the jars into the pot(PC) and closed the lid (left the ball off the top) and let it cool for about 3-4 hours.
What weird is the rhizo growth was GREAT!! It was clinging to the sides of the ruibbermaid(in the bigger casing) and reaching out with huge strands!!! I was doing air exchanges 3-5 times a day, temp was around 80F. When i started to see pins I started exchanging air more frequently and giving light more often.(about 3-5 hours a day)I don't understand why this is happening. I thought i would be getting HUGE monsters with this and a GREAT PINSET!!!!! But, turns out i get shroomies growing here and there a cluster here and there. All small fruits.
I have some qts of WBS and elixer going right now of multi spore PE Hawii that i just made. No growth as of 3 days, but hopefully I'll be seening something soon! I'm thinking about trying it again, but I REALLY WANT BIGGER FRUITS!! What can i do to fix this problem?
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
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Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 466
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 06:06 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bump to i_am_me
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HF (Highflyer)
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Username: Highflyer

Post Number: 2341
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 05:41 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the problems with castings is that its not good to squeeze them to remove excess water. This clumps the poo like mud, and makes it impossible for the mycelium to colonize through it.

Id use the oven to pasteurize castings, and get the water content of the castings right before pasteurization. No hot water bath. Ive seen this to work best.

Your small fruits are probably the result of poor colonization of the substrate. This can be a problem with any storebought, bagged substrate.


quote:

Awhile back someone mentioned not casing worm castings on the first flush



They can fruit well through all flushes uncased. Dunking between flushes.

"I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
Senior Member
Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 467
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 06:04 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I bought worm poo (The Golden brand) and I_am_me said to do it that way and has had much success with it. Now, how do you pastureize worm poo in the oven? I thought it could,should be easier to use the pillow case tech. and do it that way at like 160F for 3 hours?
Also, I guess i have decided to pick all the fruits off and just case the top with just plain wet verm. And mist it every 3 or so hours. That wy, it rehydrates the castings. ??? Maybe I could get away with putting some water in the pan and let it sit with the water in the fridge for a few hours and let it sosak up some water that way? Just trying to figure out ways to improve.
Also, when i cut the casing in half, the inside looked like it was colonized pretty good. It wasn't WHITE like the BRF+verm cakes, but it was going all throughout the casing.
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HF (Highflyer)
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Username: Highflyer

Post Number: 2349
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 06:14 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Everyone has their own methods they like. Im just giving you mine. Another option to try if something isnt working for you.

To prepare...
Take a 5 gallon bucket and mix in your castings, verm, ect. Use the sink sprayer to hydrate the castings. Spray for a little bit, then mix. Repeat until they are hydrated to the desired level. I use a large aluminum turkey roasting pan to cook them in the oven. Fill the pan, then cover the top with foil. Heat to 170, and keep it there for an hour.

Castings are the only thing I use the oven with.

To dunk...just fill the pan they are in with water for a day. Tip the pan to remove water.
"I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost
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I_am_me (I_am_me)
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Username: I_am_me

Post Number: 2286
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 08:00 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mist it every 3 hours? I never mist mine....I think its easy to get bulks too wet. You might be overmisting......
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
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Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 468
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 04:42 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've never misted it. You told me to add a casing layer and then go ahead and mist it to help rehydrate the castings! Well, i guess that I'll be making some coir and verm mix for the casing on the castings. I just put it in the mic for 4 min right? i don't have to pastureize the casing layer do i?
Now, HF. When you mean dunk the castings, you mean after they are fully colonized and have givin off the first flush? Also, you say to spray sink water onto the castinghs mix until it gets to desired water content. What am i looking for here? Is the mix supposed to be VERY WET, but not dripping when picked up?So that it can go through the oven without any problems? Also, after the hour in hte over at 170F, do i need to add more water to the castings or will they be fine?
Thanx guys
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HF (Highflyer)
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Username: Highflyer

Post Number: 2359
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Sunday, August 01, 2004 - 08:15 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can mic the casing layer. I wouldnt go over 3 minutes. I do it dry, but most do it wet. Cooking it wet will require a much longer nuke time, and a much longer cooldown time. Be sure to use a sturdy bowl. Nuking casing layers can melt holes in bowls rather quickly.

Only dunk after they are fully colonized, and post first flush.

You do not want the mix very wet. This will result in the substrate clumping. The proper moisture content is tough to put into words. Imagine a handful of plain verm in a bowl of water. Pull the verm out of the water and give it a gentle squeeze in your hands. That is how moist you want the entire bowl of worm poo. Just try to get it to the proper level without squeezing it.

You will probably not need to add more water after its done in the oven.
"I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
Senior Member
Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 470
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 02:30 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That explains why my shroomies are soo small. My castings mix was VERY DRY!!! (when compared to your way.) I just added a 1/2" casing layer to the castings. They fruited the first flush(SUCKED), and i am misting the casing layer every now and then lightly. I want to be sure that it has enough water next flush to put of some biggies!!
OOOOO also, just a little update . . My hopefuly Qt jars that i innoced with the questionalable syringe of Hawii i made; they are showing signs of growth after 4 days. Hopefully these will be a much better strain.
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JJ Downstream (Jj_downstream)
Advanced Member
Username: Jj_downstream

Post Number: 89
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 03:16 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

190 is not too high for castings. I use 200 for 3 hrs and haven't yet had a problem.

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HF (Highflyer)
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Username: Highflyer

Post Number: 2362
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 07:17 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

190 is not too high for castings. I use 200 for 3 hrs and haven't yet had a problem.



Id agree that cooking at 190 would cause no problems. Many bulk substrates can still be used...even if they are sterilized. Overpasteurization shouldnt be a problem.
"I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
Senior Member
Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 471
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 10:24 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3 hours? What is this stuff. Some people say 1 hour at 170 some people say 3 hous at 190, some say 3 hours at 200. I am lost here guys. Lets say i was going to be doing it in the overn at 200F, how long should it be in there for?
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HF (Highflyer)
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Username: Highflyer

Post Number: 2370
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Monday, August 02, 2004 - 10:47 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get the core temperature inbetweeen 160 and 170 for an hour. You will need a meat thermometer. Its not just setting your substrate into the oven at 200 for 1 hour.

Preheat oven to 275.
Put substrate in the oven.
Take core temp of substrate every 10 mins or so.
One the middle of the substrate gets between 160-170, turn oven down to 170-200.
Start a timer for an hour.
Try to maintain core temp of 160-170 for the hour.
Let cool.
"I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way." - Robert Frost
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1stTimesDaBesT (1sttimesdabest)
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Username: 1sttimesdabest

Post Number: 472
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 07:23 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok thank tyou HF. Makes it a lot easier