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RV Walbanger (Rvw)
Member
Username: Rvw

Post Number: 49
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 02:52 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First, thanks to all who responded re: my Aya Dud post a couple days ago. All good and sensible advice.

Now while I normally have a 'cast iron' stomach - to the extent that I can drink San Pedro brew without throwing up at all (though I don't recommend it - it's best to toss it after an hour rather than gag quietly for 4 hours...) - the p. viridris stuff consistently went projectile on me shortly after each gulp during my first try.

Anybody here have 1st hand or anectdotal (sp?) information on doing the vid rectally? (Any conjectures would also be welcome.) I would still drink the Cap seperately and some of the vid. in order to 'enjoy' the purge aspects of the experience, but I have doubts as to whether or not I can hold the stuff down long enough to absorb it otherwise.

Also, is there anything I could add to the vid. brew - like brown rice syrup - which might help keep it in my stomach for more than 5 minutes at a time?

(All this taking into account the previous esteemed advice re: making peace with the vine, puffing a little pot, not drinking water before or during the ingestion process.)

Many thanks again to my fellow travelers.

RVW

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I_am_me (I_am_me)
Senior Member
Username: I_am_me

Post Number: 2333
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 03:35 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe work on getting the brew reduced down to a drinkable level? Like I'm pretty sure many reduce down to enough of a size to be able to down in a gulp or two or three....
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 336
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 11:23 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In theory an enema should work but I never tried it. There may be some info on it at ayahuasca.com

With viridis, I have to drink it in very small sips over the course of an hour to prevent puking and get plenty of fresh air. Then I wait another hour and eat some bead and olive oil to release the dmt from the liver. That's the only way I can keep it down.
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xylem flow (Xylem)
Senior Member
Username: Xylem

Post Number: 200
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:05 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

imagine the get together
you and all your best buds kickin' back with the enema bag. . . ready to ?launch?
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The Gnome (Grimblegrumble)
Senior Member
Username: Grimblegrumble

Post Number: 479
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:07 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would be cool if someone tried it out and posted a firsthand reportapotty...I mean report.

Why are we so afraid of our asses?
"A gnome named Grimble Grumble.
And little gnomes stay in their homes."-Pink Floyd
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 372
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:56 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because they contain shit? :-)

I think enemas are a pointless sidetrack, like acid/base extractions, gel-capping, removing sedimen/tannin, and other methods designed to make the brew easier to ingest.

I am coming to the conclusion that the main cause of nausea is fear, believe it or not. Fear of the brew, and what it might do to you. The bad taste automatically causes this fear, and hence nausea.

The more comfortable I become with consuming the brew, the less nausea I get. I used to have terrible nausea and have enormous trouble drinking it. But nowadays I find it a lot easier.

It is like I have subconciously learned that aya is safe and good through many experiences, so my stomach is more relaxed about accepting it. It is similar to foreigners who learn to eat and enjoy disgusting-looking foods that would make any of us here puke in a second.

All the misinformation and exaggeration of maoi dangers increases fear and nausea too. The old arificial permanent maois were dangerous. The natural reversible maois in ayahuasca are SAFE. For some reason, people assumed that the dangers and dietary restrictions of the permanent maois applied to ayahuasca. This is totally false.

Moclobemide is an artificial reversible maoi similar to the maois in ayahuasca. Want to Know what the dietary restrictions for it are? Don't eat LARGE amounts of aged cheese. That's it. So drink your aya, guys, and chill out. :-)

(Message edited by leprachaun on September 01, 2004)
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The Gnome (Grimblegrumble)
Senior Member
Username: Grimblegrumble

Post Number: 480
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:05 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you never had a bad experience with Aya? Were all your experiences so good that you associate it with goodness? I have had only 3 true experiences with Aya, but 1 was not so good. Everytime though I get so extremely nauseous that it completly distracts from the experience until I "Puke my guts up". Then I can begin to focus on the experience.

(Message edited by grimblegrumble on September 01, 2004)
"A gnome named Grimble Grumble.
And little gnomes stay in their homes."-Pink Floyd
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 373
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:20 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had some very bad experiences due to tobacco INTERFERING with the aya trip, turning it into a nightmare.

With aya on its own, with no interference, it has always been a wonderful, beautiful experience (presuming the brew wasn't a dud) :-)
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Thoth (Indred_cold)
Intermediate Member
Username: Indred_cold

Post Number: 62
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:48 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This method is very old and has been in use for thousands of years. I have not heard of it being used for Ayahuasca, but it was used with other triptamines by the Inca.


"Puke my guts up"...

Its part of the experiance, if you feel sick you just get rid of it ASAP. The experiance goes bad when you try not to puke..
Conventional thinking is the ruin of our souls,
something borrowed which we mistake as our own.
Ignorance is better than this; clutch at madness instead.
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The Gnome (Grimblegrumble)
Senior Member
Username: Grimblegrumble

Post Number: 481
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 02:39 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am quite very aware of the fact that nausea and puking, not to mention diarrea are an intergal part of the Ayahuaska experience. Neither am I ignorant of the fact that enema application was widely used. From what I read though it was mostly used for Peyote and such.
Here a link that was posted here in the past.
http://www.erowid.org/plants/cacti/cacti_guide/cac ti_guide15.shtml

"A gnome named Grimble Grumble.
And little gnomes stay in their homes."-Pink Floyd
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 376
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 03:22 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Besides reducing nausea, is an enema supposed to be stronger too? I presume all the goods would go straight through the liver as if it had been drunk and would make no difference.

It may also be difficult to "hold onto" the brew up the ass.

And what will this method be called? Ass-ahuasca? :-)
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 377
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 03:26 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Besides reducing nausea, is an enema supposed to be stronger too? I presume all the goods would go straight through the liver as if it had been drunk and would make no difference.

It may also be difficult to "hold onto" the brew up the ass.

And what will this method be called? Ass-ahuasca? :-)
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The Gnome (Grimblegrumble)
Senior Member
Username: Grimblegrumble

Post Number: 482
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 03:41 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Herei s a bit o info on peyote enema use from a link that Sweetness posted back on this thread in the archives. I really have never seen anything about Aya enema use.


A method which avoids both the bitterness and the nausea is the rectal infusion. 8-16 grams of dried peyote is ground into a fine powder and boiled in a pint of water for 30 minutes. It is then strained and further boiled to reduce it's volume to one half pint. After cooling, this is taken as an enema using a small bulb syringe and retained for at least two hours. If there is any fecal matter in the lower bowel, a small cleansing enema should be taken and thoroughly expelled before having the peyote infusion. Otherwise much of the drug will be taken up by the feces and later voided.

It's a link from this thread:
http://archives.mycotopia.net/discus/messages/5/45033.h tml?1071171466

Retained for at least 2 hours? WOW, now that would take some willpower and fine muscle control.


"A gnome named Grimble Grumble.
And little gnomes stay in their homes."-Pink Floyd
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Thoth (Indred_cold)
Intermediate Member
Username: Indred_cold

Post Number: 63
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:43 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grimblegrumble

My apoligies, I never ment to insinuate you where ignorent.
Conventional thinking is the ruin of our souls,
something borrowed which we mistake as our own.
Ignorance is better than this; clutch at madness instead.
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oreganojoe (Oreganojoe)
Senior Member
Username: Oreganojoe

Post Number: 200
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:13 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now that's a High Colonic
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The Gnome (Grimblegrumble)
Senior Member
Username: Grimblegrumble

Post Number: 484
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:34 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Thoth, I am sorry.
I was a little tight strung yesterday.
In my ever on going quest to try being the best person I can I took a step or two back in the last couple of days.
Forgive me my friend, I definitely have no business trying to sound like I know anything more than anyone else.
"A gnome named Grimble Grumble.
And little gnomes stay in their homes."-Pink Floyd
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Soliver (Soliver)
Moderator
Username: Soliver

Post Number: 1338
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:16 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You guys are just too kind

But does anyone have any experience or anecdotes
for Walbanger?


quote:

All the misinformation and exaggeration of maoi dangers increases fear and nausea too. The old arificial permanent maois were dangerous. The natural reversible maois in ayahuasca are SAFE.




I think that depends entirely on what you use to make
you aya - I'm no expert on your brew, but MAOI's are certainly
nothing to mess with, natural or man-made;
perhaps your natural chemistry is different from
other folks who take MAOI's..?

:-)

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Thoth (Indred_cold)
Intermediate Member
Username: Indred_cold

Post Number: 64
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:25 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

(Grimblegrumble)

No problem! I had one of those days today, everything I touched at work turned to crap. I still have to mow the lawn...


Back to the Ayahuasca question.

What are you adding to your DH2O to acidify it? and how much? Some people use vinegar, some use lemon juice. I prefer vinegar as I can boil most of it off during the reduction, vinager will boil and evaporate at a slightly lower temp than water.

I have made many brews, in my dreams, substituting a "dry" type ginger ale for half of the DH2O. It reduces down quite nice, but you have to do it in the oven at the lowest temp it will go for a few hours, and keep your eye on it so it does not burn. The ginger seems to help keep the belly from going wild.

One thing I have noticed is that if one fasts all day long before the experience it makes the nasua much worse. Eat very light the day of the "dream". Things like plain brown rice, plain fresh vegetables, or even a piece of broiled fish with lemon juice. The key word with food is FRESH. Eating things like aged cheese, things that are cured or smoked, will get you into trouble. Tofu is something you should not eat. Just eat light.

Another thing is that you need to is strain everything down as best as you can before reducing it. Get rid of as much of the grit as you can. An old t shirt works great, and putting it in the fridge over night and letting the fine particals settle also helps. They do not grind the plant material in the amazon when they make ayahuasca like we do. We do this so we can get as much of the good stuff out as we can, I wish I had a nice garden of Caapi in my yard. They just layer fresh crushed caapi and leaves in a pot and let it cook all day long.

One thing I have found that also helps is to avoid caffeine the day before and the day after. I get a horrible headache from it. I also suspect it increases stomach acids also. So does nicotine..

(Message edited by indred_cold on September 01, 2004)
Conventional thinking is the ruin of our souls,
something borrowed which we mistake as our own.
Ignorance is better than this; clutch at madness instead.
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 378
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:46 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soliver,
I don't think I am uniquely immune or anything. I believe the aya maois are safe from all the things I have read in books and research papers by authoratative people.

The only serious dangers I know of are taking aya if you are on ssri antidepressants. I read that can be fatal. Taking speed, xtc, cocaine type stuff while on aya could also be very dangerous.

Thoth,
An aya and viridis garden, cutting a big lump of vine and drinking the juice, and chewing a juicy quid of fresh pv leaves and tripping one's ass off in the jungle. Paradise :-)
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 379
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:54 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Soliver,
I don't think I am uniquely immune or anything. I believe the aya maois are safe from all the things I have read in books and research papers by authoratative people.

The only serious dangers I know of are taking aya if you are on ssri antidepressants. I read that can be fatal. Taking speed, xtc, cocaine type stuff while on aya could also be very dangerous.

Thoth,
An aya and viridis garden, cutting a big lump of vine and drinking the juice, and chewing a juicy quid of fresh pv leaves and tripping one's ass off in the jungle. Paradise :-)
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Thoth (Indred_cold)
Intermediate Member
Username: Indred_cold

Post Number: 67
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:28 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

n aya and viridis garden, cutting a big lump of vine and drinking the juice, and chewing a juicy quid of fresh pv leaves and tripping one's ass off in the jungle. Paradise :-)


I have a good friend in Peru, if things get to insane here my wife and I might just take a vacation to Mexico and bail to the Amazon. The eco -tourism business is booming in that area. It might be interesting, dangerous and all that fun stuff!!
Conventional thinking is the ruin of our souls,
something borrowed which we mistake as our own.
Ignorance is better than this; clutch at madness instead.
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Underground_Shaman (Shaman)
Senior Member
Username: Shaman

Post Number: 308
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 05:28 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leprachaun,

I do agree with you that aya maoi are likely much safer than synthetic chemicals.

On the other hand, my understanding is that there is a vast individual variability in the types, ratios, and concentrations of mao enzymes in the gut. Therefore, a food that may be rather benign for you while on maois may be fatal for someone else.

Given these individual differences, I would rather err on the side of caution, especially when giving advice regarding safe dosing.

I am in no way trying to discredit your views, as you clearly have had much experience with the vine. I highly respect your opinions.

I hope you understand where Sol and I are coming from on this one.


Shaman
...once in awhile you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right...
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Leprachaun (Leprachaun)
Senior Member
Username: Leprachaun

Post Number: 380
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:30 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I suppose you guys are right. Better safe than sorry. I wouldnt like it if some newbie said he had a bad reaction because I said it was safe to eat tyramine foods straight after a trip. But I stil think the dangers are exaggerated.

I read that the reversible maois form a weak bond with mao in the body, making it temporarily unavailable to do its job. However, if some tyramine comes along, it cleaves the maoi from the mao molecule and binds to it. This is because it has a stronger attraction to mao than the maoi. That is why reversible maois are safer than permanent ones which bind firmly to the mao molecule until it "dies" after about 2 weeks.

If tyramine comes along, it cant cleave the permanent maois from the mao molecule, so it wanders off and causes a release of norepinephrine (noradrenaline) which causes a dangerous rise in blood pressure, causing all sorts of unpleasant symptoms, including death.

However, I think I vaguely remember reading somewhere that reversible maois can behave like permanent maois if a very high dose is taken. If there is tyramine around under those conditions, there is so much reversible maoi competing to bind to the mao molecule that the tyramine cant get a look-in. But this would probably be equivalent of a vine dose of 200-300g or more.

With all medicines, regardless of their safety reputation, there is always someone somewhere who has a bad reaction. So yes, better safe than sorry.


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Thoth (Dr_hyde)
New member
Username: Dr_hyde

Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:02 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The only serious dangers I know of are taking aya if you are on ssri antidepressants. I read that can be fatal. Taking speed, xtc, cocaine type stuff while on aya could also be very dangerous."

I agree with you totaly, SSRI's are perhaps the most dangerous followed by the illegals like X etc. Diatary restrictions are importaint as well, but I believe some people have way too much fear regarding them. One just has to eat fresh unprocessed food the day of the experiance, thats it. Nothing aged, smoked, etc. In reality we should be eating like this anyway. LOL! I am the first to point the finger at myself..

One should also be physicly fit as well if they intend to use the vine on a regular basis. The experiance can take alot out of you.

(Message edited by dr_hyde on September 04, 2004)
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Thoth (Dr_hyde)
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Username: Dr_hyde

Post Number: 32
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 07:12 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe in theory at least, that you would probably still puke. I think the Beta Carbolines would still cause you to puke.

As strange as this topic is I might try it. My only worry is trying to hold the Ayahuasca in and purging at the same time.

As far as puking with Aya goes, people drink "acid" brews which I believe is the main reason for puking too soon. Puking in 60 to 90 min is normal, not 10 min into the experiance. Your final brew should have no acid in it. If you use vinager in the extraction you should reduce it down to between 100 and 200 ml. Taste it, if it tasts like vinager, add a liter of DH20 and reduce again. Repeat untill you no longer taste much or any of the vinager. It should not be acidic at all when you drink it. Keep it at a low boil when you reduce and do not worry about losing the DMT. Some people freak about thism but the DMT is in a salt form and not freebase, its also desolved in water.
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JustSomeGeezer (Justsomegeezer)
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Username: Justsomegeezer

Post Number: 35
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:53 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Guys, i have to respect the lengths you are prepared to go to to get a hit, but are you sure?

you could try this dutch comercial website. if you weren't in the US they would happily ship you the ingrediants to brew your ayahuasca. in fact four different kinds. they also quote a recipie from ayahuasca.com which you probably already know. http://www.azarius.nl/index.php?category=2&subcate gory=4

I don't have any first hand info to impart, but i notice in Azarius' text on the subject that they say:

"First you might feel some nausea. .......
After 45 - 60 minutes the first visions will appear and one can experience a religious ecstasy."

This IMHO tends to suggest that early puking is normal and things should have settled down by 45 - 60 mins when the trip kicks in. Butt, as i say i have no experience with this so really i'm talking out of my @rse. which you guys won't be able to do for two hours if you go through with this :-)

for the record, gnome's quote above can also be found in Adam Gottlieb's respected book "Peyote and other Psychoactive Cacti". so it probably isn't just sh!t - sorry couldn't resist that one ;-)
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JustSomeGeezer (Justsomegeezer)
Member
Username: Justsomegeezer

Post Number: 36
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:57 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS - wouldn't you be better off just getting some DMT powder, sticking it in a pipe and blowing your mind?
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 25654
Registered: 02-2001
Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 08:12 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

And what will this method be called? Ass-ahuasca?



not if i have anything to say about it.
i just don't think it really tastes all that bad
once you get used to it.
and how are you going to get it up your ass and keep it there long enough to get off ?
ask your friend for a little help ?


Namaste


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Thoth (Dr_hyde)
Member
Username: Dr_hyde

Post Number: 40
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 02:32 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"PS - wouldn't you be better off just getting some DMT powder, sticking it in a pipe and blowing your mind?"

Nope, totaly differant experiance.



(Message edited by dr_hyde on September 06, 2004)
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Natura (Natura)
Senior Member
Username: Natura

Post Number: 442
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 04:41 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the subject who was discussed for many months at Ayhuasca forum at many yrs ago. nd
it works, but many peole can NOT surport this in his own asxxole for long. I mean, this tea makes much feeling of diaree nd Common scenario is that you go to toilet first in light speed. I guess portion cost much nd you can NOT reuse it, so this is bit richy water-sport indeed.
N+
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drwombatt (Drwombatt)
Senior Member
Username: Drwombatt

Post Number: 132
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 09:13 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think the aztec indians or some south american blend, used to take alcohol, aya, or peyote intraanally. As they found it easier to handle that way. Maybe theres some information on the web about it. If thats what you're looking for.

(Message edited by drwombatt on September 07, 2004)

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