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wongbater (Wongbater)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:51 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, hippie, if that was you, that I attempted to burden you with this question in private chat. Anyway, upon trying to obtain anhydrous alcohol from the university I attend, I found myself in discussion with a biochemist. He reiterated the process used for the commercial product (ether extraction) and said that they are never able to remove all the ether (a carcinogen), making it not quite the best form for consumption. Side note: nothing is 100%, could be ?99%, 99.9%, 99.99%, you get the idea. He said my best bet would be to use a common dessciant to get the water out. i.e. soak everclear a couple hours or days then filter the chunks of dessciant out of ethanol. wallah 99.??% alcohol.
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 03:00 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have often entertained this notion... however, we must consider only dessicant that is insoluble in both water and alcohol. Perhaps silica gel... I think an experiment is in order with some of that fancy cat litter stuff.

Unfortunately, I have heard differing opinions from different chemists on this issue. Many believe that because water and alcohol is an azeotrope, it will not separate.

I have distilled grain alcohol further than the bottle in the past, and I can definitely tell you that there is some pale yellow (perhaps color is an artifact of heating) impurity in bottled grain alc. This will probably not be absorbed by any dessicant.

I must also mention that 99+% isopropyl alcohol is easily available upon request at most pharmacies. Just ask them for the prices, and order some. You don't even need ID. Just tell them you need it for cleaning computer circuits or something electrical like that...

-ion
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wongbater (Wongbater)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 04:10 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The azeotrope should only be a factor if you're trying to improve purity through distillation. The yellow impurity, if present, will hopefully not be a factor in the evaporation process, the main reason 5% water would f-up the process. And this impurity should certainly be consumable (although I hardly consider alcohol consumable...yet the relief...reliance.. anyway). I work at a liquor store, and anhydrous is not availible that way in this state (sc), but i've yet to try a pharmacy. Based on my conversation with biochemist, I believe the ethanol availible for cleaning computers would have been achieved via ether separation.

Thanks for replying ion... My first interaction with this site was with you via "Bildo" a short time ago. I look forward to hearing from you in the future.
-wongbater
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 06:57 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool! Good to see you again!

But, hey, I was talking about isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol from the pharmacies.

Yeah, I thought so, too, about the azeotrope. But apparently some are under the impression that because alcohol is kinda like a "stronger version of water" as a solvent (polar with non-polar properties), it would effectively remain in solution with the water... I dunno. Never tried, yet.

And, yes, I'm sure the yellow is edible, just not desireable for extractiong a smokeable substance (or even an edible one, necessarily. the concentration of bad impurities in the alcohol may be allowed to reach certain higher levels than normal food because one can only drink very little alcohol at a time...).

By the way, ethanol (and to a lesser extent isopropanol) is highly deliquescent in air. It will re-sbsorb that 5% water in a matter of minutes if flowing in an exposed-air environment (during the filtering process, perhps). Put it all in a sealed box with dessicant in the box, and wait to open the bottle until you see no more water collection in the air dessicant. Also, make sure you never later open the bottle while cold or for extended periods.

-ion
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 11:58 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

it was me, wong, but my damn 'puter locked up and i had to reboot twice before it would run right then my wife came home so i never got back in, sorry to leave so abruptly.
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wongbater (Wongbater)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:07 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's ok hippie, thanks for letting me know.

Ion, I guess your goal is to reduce down to a solid since you wouldn't want to consume rubbing alcohol and I never thought of smoking it. I was more in the market for a tincture. I didn't think about the alcohol taking water from the air so quickly. Does the deliquescent property reach a stable level while the alcohol concentration is still usable? Why is 5% water so bad anyway? If you allowed evaporation to take place, wouldn't you just be left with the funk in a little bit of water (more appealing than alcohol to me anyway)?
-wong
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 12:16 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Quote:

Why is 5% water so bad anyway? If you allowed evaporation to take place, wouldn't you just be left with the funk in a little bit of water (more appealing than alcohol to me anyway)?



well, if you want to go that route, why bother with alky extraction at all ?
psilo is water-soluable, very much so.
unless you trying to make crystals then there's really not much of a reason to go to that much trouble trying to get anhydrous.
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wongbater (Wongbater)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 01:15 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you mean to say that powdered shroom material soaking in water at room temp would form a psilo solution? How long would that take? And how effective could it possibly be? Does psilo and water have unlimited solubility like water and alcohol?
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 02:10 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well, kinda.
i'm not talking serious chemistry here, like trying to get crystal of psilocybin , for that you'd need anyhydrous of course. or even just drying it down to a gum.
but if you just want a simple extract that you can drink then you can just use water to make a tea, that's all i'm saying. or like pf mentions on his site, you can also extract in booze.
i figure you might already know this, so i'm sorry if i brought it up inappropriately.
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wongbater (Wongbater)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 03:02 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm lookin for an inconspicuous method of storage, a concentrated liquid or the powder would be nice. Do you know about the limits of solubility (I'm certain it woudn't be limitless)? If I'm going to straight powder, I guess the isopropyl would be ok, but I got to check on the cost. Anyone yall know of tried using everclear to get it down very concentrated in the water and then sealing in container with dessciant? Also, if the solubility limits are low enough, crystals should precipitate at some point, ya think?
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lurker (Lurker)
Posted on Tuesday, October 22, 2002 - 10:50 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

psilocybin solution (in water) is not a good method of storage; the magic will break down fairly quickly.
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 01:08 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did not realize what you were trying to extract. I was merely describing the properties and availability of alcohols.

No, the water doesn't matter that much in this instance. However, in order to remove the majority of the 'cybin, you must acidify the solution with lemon juic or something. Just bring the pH down about 2 points from neutral. 'cybin is only slightly soluble in neutral or basic water, and hardly soluble in ethanol. 'cin, on the other hand, is easily soluble in just about everything. So, in order to remove close to everything, you must have an acidic solution... be that only water + acid or alcohol + water + acid. You would use alcohol for the fact that it evaporates more quickly, pretty much. It will reabsorb that 5%, but that really doesn't matter if you are not going for a solid. If you are going for a solid, use pure methanol (poisonous, but will get everything and not deliquesce in air).

Water is actually a very good storage medium as long as it is deionized (distilled) and boiled to remove excess dissolved oxygen. The trick is that after the alkaloid is floating in the water, you must keep the alkaloid molecules from interacting with the surface (where the oxygen is) and receiving any light or heat. Freeze the water quickly after the extraction in a dark bottle or tight-sealing plastic tub. This will reduce convection, keep it dark, and bring the alkaloids down to optimum storage temperatures.

Also, if you plan to store for a long time, the acid you use should be fairly pure (not lemon juice :)). Use distilled white vinegar or some muriatic (HCl ~30%) from a hardware store.

To use the acidy ice, just thaw it at room temperature, throw in a pinch of baking soda, and drink. Swish it around in your mouth for as long as you can stand it... 'cin absorbs most quickly through the mucosa, not the intestine.

-ion
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Wednesday, October 23, 2002 - 08:17 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

archive material
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 02:18 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I must add that I, unfortunately, do not know the dynamics of the dissolved alkaloid molecules in cooling water.
It is possible that as the water cools, the 'cin and 'cybin molecules fall to the bottom (they have a higher density and molecular weight than water). However, water is weird in that the density is greatest at 4 C, then it rapidly becomes less dense as it nears 0 C (so the alks may rise to the surface as water density increases, then get trapped there as freezing occurs). Either way, it is possible that some stirring is in order after the water thaws completely, to assure yourself of an even mixture.

You will not get a crystalline precipitate from an alcohol or water extraction. It will be a gum or oily substance. But your idea of removing the water by dessicant is sound. It would be best to have it under vacuum and in the dark during this process.

Oh, and isopropyl is generally cheaper than ethyl (less taxes). However, I am not sure of the solubility of either alkaloid in iso. I cannot find any references to its use for this purpose. Perhaps an experiment is in order. Extract with iso twice, combine and evaporate, then extract with methanol twice, combine and evaporate. Try each of the dried extracts and see what's up.

-ion
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wongbater (Wongbater)
Posted on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 03:19 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks ion, great advice! If I can get my little guys to grow enough mass, I'll certaintly give it a try. I thought I made discovery today in the doctor's office prior to being degraded (Never let anyone tell you hemorroids aren't a pain in the ass) I saw on a poster that the mucosa was the lining of the stomach and recalled the "swishing" exercise you suggested, thinking that you thought it was the mouth. I now see that were trying for absorption before it gets to the intestine. Does liquid really go through that fast? Maybe I should just issue hoola hoops to my friends if I can get enough potion
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ion ewe (Ion)
Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 12:14 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The stomach lining is a mucosa. A mucosa is merely a slimy "mucous lined" wall of flesh. I was referring to the buccal mucosa (that of the mouth). The stomach lining will do it, too, but I believe that the stomach is designed not to absorb things through its walls (in case you ingest something, and it needs to be expelled with as little absorbtion as possible). This defense mechanism is not present in the mouth or nasal passages. Also, these latter two have a great deal of capillaries close to the surface.

Yes, it is a very rapid rate of absorption through the cheeks and flesh of the mouth. Not only liquid extracts, but also well-chewed shroomies do this. Usually takes about 10 or 15 minutes to feel the first effects using this method. Also, it matters less if you have eaten prior to partaking.

-ion

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