Post Number: 42
|Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 06:56 am:||
There seems to be some interest in Ayahuasca. I am sure there are those here who have had success in brewing, from a imaginary standpoint of course, that could share their ideas. I think the brew is too much of a positive thing to keep to ourselves. There are sites that are dedicated to this sort of thing out there, but not all of them are as friendly or as help full as this one.
People who are new to this may have questions or they may have tried and failed. There is no need to fail when there are so many people around who have succeeded. The more people who have the knowledge, the less likely it will be lost.
Any metaphysical, historical or usage discursion is more than welcome. My way of making it is not the only way and it may not work well for everyone. LOL! Its probably not the best, but it works well.
Post Number: 43
|Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:19 am:||
Ayahuasca: Ayahuasca is a shamanic plant potion. The use of Ayahuasca may well be
primordial, its use extending back to the earliest aboriginal inhabitants of
the North West Amazon region (Schultes and Hofman 1992). The ethnographer
McEwan (2001) believes that abstract liminal patterns such as zigzags,
serrated lines and geometric forms found on ancient relics and traditional
textiles, pottery and body art of various tribes represent the perceptual
threshold between everyday and transpersonal realms of consciousness. These
relics, combined with an abundance of myths describing the origin of
Ayahuasca as deeply intertwined cosmologically with the creation of the
universe, earth, and tribal people, indicate a long history of human use.
Banisteriopsis caapi, often refered to as Yage, constitutes the common base
ingredient of Ayahuasca tea. B.caapi contains beta-carbolines that exhibit
sedative, hypnotic, anti-depressant, monoamine oxidase inhibiting, and
occassionally entheogenic activity (McKenna DJ, Callaway JC, Grob CS 1996).
The vine is traditionally married with another plant - Ayahuasca is a
synergystic potion. Typically it is mixed with a tryptamine carrying plant.
The foliage of Psychotria viridis (Chacruna) is the principle admixture of
Ayahuasca potions employed throughout Peru and Brazil. In Columbia and
Amazonian Ecuador, the plant Diplopterys cabrerana (Chaliponga) is often used
instead. The combination of Yage vine with Chacruna or Chaliponga is
sometimes known as a marriage of power and light . This marriage is necessary
to unlock the shamanic mareacion and its visionary mythological vistas.
Without marriage, the Yage vine alone is a purifier, a purgative, a physical
medicine and anti-depressant but generally not a visionary catalyst.
The term Ayahuasca can refer to the vine as well as the brew made from it.
There are 2 basic types of Ayahuasca. The first, Caapi and Chacruna, is the
most common.The second most common is Oco Ayahuasca (Diplopterys cabrerana and Caapi),
Diplopterys cabrerana is also known as chaliponga, is used in addition to or
instead of chacruna. It contains 5-MeO DMT in addition to NN DMT. The effects
are slightly differant, I would consider it to be a much deeper experiance.
Diplopterys leaves are 5-10 times more powerfull than viridis leaves. One
would use 10 to 15 grams instead of the 30 to 40 if using viridis.
I would not recommend Oco to someone who is having their first experience with
Ayahuasca. Its a deeper more potent brew.
There are many ways to get your hands on these plants. The plants themselves are not
illegal, but common sense should tell your their only really use is considered illegal by
most governments. Perhaps the safest method is to grow your own, but most people do not
have the time or the knowledge to do so. I am happy to see more and more people are doing
this, but most people buy them online. There are many excellent sponsors that support
mycotopia that sell these plants for purposes other than consumption. One needs to be
very careful in buying these plants elsewhere, as there have been a few cases of people
getting ripped off. People also need to be aware that just because the brew did not work
does not mean they got ripped. These are natural products, Caapi is almost always
potent, but some "leaves" are just duds, or perhaps its ones own fault in not brewing
These are what the plants look like when purchased:
Chacruna or viridis:
As far as the source of the leaves go, its what you can afford. Peruvian leaves are for the most part a quality product. If you can afford it, Hawaiian leaves are of very good quality, but they can be duds also. One can even have fresh Hawaiian leaf sent to them by airmail. Caapi is mostly sold in its red and yellow form. It really makes no difference. Large, mature specimens are preferred. Whole Caapi is ALWAYS preferred over shredded.
The number one thing to remember is that to make the brew is to break the law of the land. Thats the way it is and I will not indulge in an endless debate on this subject. Its illegal so be as careful as you would be if you where growing and consuming shrooms. The penalties, at least in my mind, would probably be just as severe if the government decided to do a major crackdown. Please don't have a false sense of comfort in the fact that the plants are legal to possess. I don't mean to bring anyone down, but its best to see the reality of the situation.
So as my dream continues.. I now have my vine sections and leaves. The vine is the hardest thing to process. First you need to know how much you need. Its always best to make twice as much as you need. The first reason is that the leaves may not be all that strong or the extraction did not get all the goodies out. The second is perhaps one you may or may not want to do the first time around, drink another cup 3 or 4 hours after the first one to extend the experience. On average 30 to 40 grams of leaf per dose is a good starting dose for the average person who has had experiance with shrooms. As far as the vine goes 40 to 60 grams is a good dose. Caapi by itself is perhaps best the first time around if you have any fears regarding Ayahuasca. Its a wonderful experience and is used as such all throughout the Amazon.
Back to the vine. Its as hard as oak, you will need a LARGE hammer, a towel, and a pair of plyers. One wraps the vine section in the towel and beats it flat with the hammer, use a sledge of you have one! The key is to get it into small enough pieces to not destroy what you intend to grind it with. Weigh out your Cappi chips, you should have somewhere between 80 and 120 grams, throw the rest in a zip lock bag. The chips can be broken down further with the plyers before grinding. They do not have to be ground to to talcum powder, perhaps the best grind is of the consistency of sawdust.
The leaves can be ground down just as they are. Again they do not have to be ground to a powder. In fact, they are harder to work with if they are. You will lose a certain percentage of them in a cloud of dust if you do. Just grind them! LOL!!
This is good enough:
For the next step you will need a crock pot, at least thats my method. Actually Hippie3 set me on that path when I read about his dreams. There are many advantages to the crock pot method. The first is that the inside is made of porcelain. There is no danger of leaching off metals like aluminum, as would be the case if you used a cooking pot. The other advantage is slow even heat and a lid. The slow even heat is a must if you wish to extract all of the good stuff and the lid is there so you can forget about it for a few hours at a time without having to worry about burning it. If you do not have a crock pot they are always in large supply at thrift stores if your short on cash or you can just steal your wifes.
The water you use must be DH2O. Not spring water or tap water. Minerals in the water can cause a dud brew. Its cheap and you will need at least 4 or 5 gallons. I keep alot of it around for my plants so its not a problem.
Now you will have to acidify the DH2O. The reason the DH2O is acidified is that the things we are extracting are salts and dissolve only in aquious acids. One can use everything from lemons to Hydrochloric acid to vinegar. Vinegar is the preferred method for many reasons. The main reason is that it boils off when the brew is reduced in the final stage. One would use between 10 and 20 ml per liter of DH2O.
Some people extract the Caapi and the leaves separately. To me this is just more work for no real advantage. Just throw it all in the crock pot together. The DH2O should be mixed with the vinegar before putting it into the water. Once you have it mixed, just pour it over the ground up leaves and vine. Just let it brew, on low, with the lid on for 8 hours, its a good idea to check on it very few hours and give it a stir. If needed you can add more acidified DH2O. This is the first extraction.
This should be strained through a fine metal strainer, purists may disagree, but plastic ones work well also. Place the resulting extraction in a large covered bowl and put it in the fridge. The plant material is placed back into the crock pot for a second extraction. Acidify your DH2O as before, and cook for 8 more hours. Strain as before and save the water. You can throw the plant material away or better yet put it into your compost pile.
Now you have 2 large bowls containing the 2 extractions. Its best to further strain this through an old tee shirt. The material used should be cotton as not to react with the acid in the extraction. Straining is good for 2 reasons. The first is the fine plant material will irritate you stomach if you drink it. The second is that the extraction will be easier to burn during the reduction phase. Don't worry about losing too much of the good stuff as its in the DH2O and not the plant material.
For the reduction phase a large porcelain turkey roaster is ideal. Preferably one that is new, if not new than VERY clean. One can do this on the cook top but I prefer the oven. Just preheat the oven to 400 degrees. Place the pan containing the extractions into the oven and bring the heat down to about 200 degrees. The liquid should very lightly boil, but a roaring boil may destroy the brew. We want to get rid of the excess DH2O and the acid. Vinegar will boil off before the water. Once the liquid comes down to about 200 or 300 ml it should be tasted. If it tasts acidic, add more DH2O and reduce it again. Usually after the second reduction the vinegar is gone. 100 to 200 ml per dose is good the first time you do this as its very easy to burn. 75 to 100 ml is actually better. The brew should not be thick, but almost the consistency of water.
The brew can be stored in an airtight jar or bottle in the fridge. As long as it does not get moldy it should be ok to use. I have seen it last longer than a year.
One needs to be fully aware of the danger of drinking the brew. MOAI's can make you very sick at the least if you eat the wrong foods or take the wrong medications with them. Mixing them with anything but a triptamine like DMT or shrooms is not recommended. Ganja tends to wash out the effects of Ayahuasca. It can also delay the effects by 2 or 3 hours.
Here are the FAQs regarding MAOI's: (Get to know them like your life depends on it.)
Interactions Between MAOIs, SSRIs, and Recreational Drugs
1. Avoid mixing MAOIs and SSRIs.
This can lead to serotonin syndrome and can be dangerous.
2. Do not mix MAOIs with Stimulants (including MDMA).
This can lead to hypertensive crisis and can be deadly.
3. SSRIs in Combination with MDMA
Generally reduces the effects of the MDMA significantly.
4. SSRIs in Combination with Psychedelics
Generally reduce the effects of the psychedelic a bit.
5. MAOIs in Combination with Psychedelics
Generally increase the effects of the psychedelic significantly. Be extremely careful.
Strong SSRIs are significantly more common than MAOIs. Many commonly prescribed pharmaceutical anti-depressants are SSRIs, including Prozac (Fluoxetine), Paxil (Paroxetine), Zoloft (Sertraline), Celexa (Citalopram), and Desyrel (Trazodone).
Strong MAOIs are less common, but include prescription anti-depressants like phenelzine (Nardil), tranylcypromine (Parnate), isocarboxazid (Marplan), l-deprenyl (Eldepryl), moclobemide (Aurorex or Manerix), furazolidone, and pargyline. Ayahuasca also contains MAOIs, generally in the form of Banisteriopsis caapi or Syrian rue (harmine and harmaline).
Foods to Avoid with MAOIs
From: [email protected] (Stephen R. Saklad)
Subject: Re: MAO-I's dietary restrictions
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:05:01 -0600
© 1974-1994 Micromedex Inc. - All rights reserved - Vol. 82 Exp. 12/94
Tyramine is an amino acid which is found in various foods, and is an indirect sympathomimetic that can cause a hypertensive reaction in patients receiving MAOI therapy. Monoamine oxidase is found in the gastrointestinal tract and inactivates tyramine; when drugs prevent the catabolism of exogenous tyramine, this amino acid is absorbed and displaces norepinephrine from sympathetic nerve ending and epinephrine from the adrenal glands. If a sufficient amount of pressor amines are released, a patient may experience a severe occipital or temporal headache, diaphoresis, mydriasis, nuchal rigidity, palpitations, and the elevation of both diastolic and systolic blood pressure may ensue (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; Brown & Bryant, 1988).
On rare occasions, cardiac arrhythmias, cardiac failure, and intracerebral hemorrhage have developed in patients receiving MAOI therapy that did not observe dietary restrictions (Brown & Bryant, 1988). Therefore, dietary restrictions are required for patients receiving MAOIs. Extensive dietary restrictions previously published were collected over a decade ago and due to changes in food processing and more reliable analytical methods, new recommendations have been published (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986).
The tyramine content of foods varies greatly due to the differences in processing, fermentation, ripening, degradation, or incidental contamination. Many foods contain small amounts of tyramine and the formation of large quantities of tyramine have been reported if products were aged, fermented, or left to spoil. Because the sequela from tyramine and MAOIs is dose-related, reactions can be minimized without total abstinence from tyramine-containing foods.Approximately 10 to 25 mg of tyramine is required for a severe reaction compared to 6 to 10 mg for a mild reaction. Foods that normally contain low amounts of tyramine may become a risk if unusually large quantities are consumed or if spoilage has occurred (McCabe, 1986).
Three lists were compiled (foods to avoid, foods that may used in small quantities, and foods with insufficient evidence to restrict) to minimized the strict dietary restrictions that were previously used and improve compliance and safety of MAOI therapy. The foods to avoid list consists of foods with sufficient tyramine (in small or usual serving sizes) that would create a dangerous elevation in blood pressure and therefore should be avoided (McCabe, 1986)
FOODS TO AVOID
# Alcoholic beverages Avoid Chianti wine and vermouth.
# Consumption of red, white, and port wine in quantities less than 120 mL present little risk (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; McCabe, 1986).
# Beer and ale should also be avoided (McCabe, 1986), however other investigators feel major domestic (US) brands of beer is safe in small quantities (½ cup or less than 120 mL) (Anon, 1989; Da Prada, 1988), but imported beer should not be consumed unless a specific brand is known to be safe.
# Whiskey and liqueurs such as Drambuie and Chartreuse have caused reactions.
# Nonalcoholic beverages (alcohol-free beer and wines) may contain tyramine and should be avoided (Anon, 1989; Stockley, 1993).
# Banana peels A single case report implicates a banana as the causative agent, which involved the consumption of whole stewed green banana, including the peel. Ripe banana pulp contains 7 µg/gram of tyramine compared to a peel which contains 65 µg/gram and 700 µg of tyramine and dopamine, respectively (McCabe, 1986).
# Bean curd Fermented bean curd, fermented soya bean, soya bean pastes contain a significant amount of tyramine (Anon, 1989).
# Broad (fava) bean pods These beans contain dopa, not tyramine, which is metabolized to dopamine and may cause a pressor reaction and therefore should not be eaten particularly if overripe (McCabe, 1986; Anon, 1989; Brown & Bryant, 1988).
# Cheese Tyramine content cannot be predicted based on appearance, flavor, or variety and therefore should be avoided.
# Cream cheese and cottage cheese have no detectable level of tyramine (McCabe, 1986; Anon, 1989, Brown & Bryant, 1988).
# Fish Fresh fish (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986) and vacuum-packed pickled fish or caviar contain only small amounts of tyramine and are safe if consumed promptly or refrigerated for short periods; longer storage may be dangerous (Anon, 1989).
# Smoked, fermented, pickled (Herring) and otherwise aged fish, meat, or any spoiled food may contain high levels of tyramine and should be avoided (Anon, 1989; Brown & Bryant, 1988).
# Ginseng Some preparations have resulted in a headache, tremulousness, and manic-like symptoms (Anon, 1989).
# Protein extracts Three brands of meat extract contained 95, 206, and 304 µg/gram of tyramine and therefore meat extracts should be avoided (McCabe, 1986).
# Avoid liquid and powdered protein dietary supplements (Anon, 1989).
# Meat nonfresh or liver
# no detectable levels identified in fresh chicken livers
# high tyramine content found in spoiled or unfresh livers (McCabe, 1986).
# Fresh meat is safe, caution suggested in restaurants (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988).
# Sausage, bologna, pepperoni and salami contain large amounts of tyramine (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; McCabe, 1986).
# No detectable tyramine levels were identified in country cured ham (McCabe, 1986).
# Sauerkraut Tyramine content has varied from 20 to 95 µg/gram and should be avoided (McCabe, 1986).
# Shrimp paste Contain a large amount of tyramine (Anon, 1989).
# Soups Should be avoided as protein extracts may be present; miso soup is prepared from fermented bean curd and contain tyramine in large amounts and should not be consumed (Anon, 1989).
# Yeast Brewer's or extracts - yeast extracts (Marmite) which are spread on bread or mixed with water,
# Brewer's yeast, or Yeast vitamin supplements should not be consumed.
# Yeast used in baking is safe (Anon, 1989; Da Prada et al, 1988; McCabe, 1986).
The foods to use with caution list categorizes foods that have been reported to cause a hypertensive crisis if foods were consumed in large quantities, stored for prolong periods, or if contamination occurred. Small servings (½ cup, or less than 120 mL) of the following foods are not expected to pose a risk for patients on MAOI therapy (McCabe, 1986).
FOODS TO USE WITH CAUTION
(½ cup or less than 120 mL)
Alcoholic beverages - see under foods to avoid.
Avocados - contain tyramine, particularly overripe (Anon, 1989) but may be used in small amounts if not overripened (McCabe, 1986).
Caffeine - contains a weak pressor agent, large amounts may cause a reaction (Anon, 1989).
Chocolate - is safe to ingest for most patients, unless consumed in large amounts (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986).
Dairy products - Cream, sour cream, cottage cheese, cream cheese, yogurt, or milk should pose little risk unless prolonged storage or lack of sanitation standards exists (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986). Products should not be used if close to the expiration date (McCabe, 1986).
Nuts - large quantities of peanuts were implicated in a hypertensive reaction and headache. Coconuts and brazil nuts have also been implicated, however no analysis of the tyramine content was performed (McCabe, 1986).
Raspberries - contain tyramine and small amounts are expected to be safe (McCabe, 1986).
Soy sauce - has been reported to contain large amounts of tyramine and reactions have been reported with teriyaki (Anon, 1989), however analysis of soy sauce reveals a tyramine level of 1.76 µg/mL and fermented meat may have contributed to the previously reported reactions (McCabe, 1986).
Spinach, New Zealand prickly or hot weather - large amounts have resulted in a reaction (Anon, 1989; McCabe, 1986).
More than 200 foods contain tyramine in small quantities and have been implicated in reactions with MAOI therapy, however the majority of the previous reactions were due to the consumption of spoiled food. Evidence does not support the restriction of the following foods listed if the food is fresh (McCabe, 1986).
FOODS WITH INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE FOR RESTRICTION (McCabe, 1986)
* chips with vinegar
* Coca Cola
* corn, sweet
* cottage cheese
* cream cheese
* egg, boiled
* figs, canned
* fish, canned
* pineapple, fresh
* salad dressings
* tomato juice
* wild game
* worcestershire sauce
* yeast-leavened bread
Any protein food, improperly stored or handled, can form pressor amines through protein breakdown. Chicken and beef liver, liver pate, and game generally contain high amine levels due to frequent mishandling. Game is often allowed to partially decompose as part of its preparation. Ayd (1986) reported that the freshness of the food is a key issue with MAOIs and that as long as foods are purchased from reputable shops and stored properly, the danger of a hypertensive crisis is minimal. Some foods should be avoided, the most dangerous being aged cheeses and yeast products used as food supplements (Gilman et al, 1985).
With appropriate dietary restrictions, the incidence of hypertensive crises has decreased to approximately 4% (Zisook, 1985). Treatment of a hypertensive reactions includes the=7F administration of phentolamine (Anon, 1989) 2.5 to 5 milligrams intravenously (slow) titrated against blood pressure (Zisook,=7F 1985; Lippman & Nash, 1990). One report has suggested that the use of sublingual nifedipine 10 milligrams was effective in treating 2 hypertensive reactions following the ingestion of a tyramine-containing food in a patient receiving MAOI therapy (Clary & Schweizerr, 1987). Chlorpromazine also has alpha-blocking properties and has been recommended as an agent for discretionary use (patient-initiated treatment) in the setting of dietary indiscretion (Lippman & Nash, 1990).
Dietary restrictions are required for individuals receiving monoamine oxidase inhibitor therapy to prevent a hypertensive crisis and other side effects. The foods listed in the dietary restrictions have been categorized into those foods that must be avoided, foods that may be ingested in small quantities, and those foods that were previous implicated in reactions but upon analyses of fresh samples only a small tyramine content was identified and should be safe to consume if freshness is considered.
1. Anon: Foods interacting with MAOI inhibitors. Med Lett Drug Ther 1989; 31:11-12.
2. Ayd FJ: Diet and monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs): an update. Int Drug Ther Newslett 1986; 21:19-20.
3. Brown CS & Bryant SG: Monoamine oxidase inhibitors: safety and efficacy issues. Drug Intell Clin Pharm 1988; 22:232-235.
4. Clary C & Schweizer E: Treatment of MAOI hypertensive crisis with sublingual nifedipine. J Clin Psychiatry 1987; 48:249-250.
5. Da Prada M, Zurcher G, Wuthrich I et al: On tyramine, food, beverages and the reversible MAO inhibitor moclobemide. J Neural Transm 1988; 26(Suppl):31-56.
6. Gilman AG, Goodman LS & Rall TW et al (Ed): Goodman and Gilman's The Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics, 7th ed., Macmillan Publishing, New York, NY, 1985.
7. Lippman SB & Nash K: Monoamine oxidase inhibitor update. Potential adverse food and drug interactions. Drug Safety 1990; 5:195-204.
8. McCabe BJ: Dietary tyramine and other pressor amines in MAOI regimens: a review. J Am Diet Assoc 1986; 86:1059-1064.
9. Stockley I: Alcohol-free beer not safe for MAOI patients. Pharm J 1993; 250:174.
10. Zisook S: A clinical overview of monoamine oxidase inhibitors. Psychosomatics 1985; 26:240-251.
Theodore G Tong, Pharm D/C Hansen
Assistant Clinical Professor of Pharmacy
University of California
San Franscisco, California 94143
Revised by DRUGDEX Editorial Staff
Denver, Colorado 80204, 09/82
Revised by DRUGDEX Editorial Staff, 09/83; 07/85; 07/86; 09/89; 04/93; 01/94
* Meats and Fish
o Liver of all kinds
o Pickled herring and other pickled fish
o Game (venison, etc.)
o Snails (escargot)
o Salted fish (lox)
o Corned beef
o Sausages (salami, etc)
* Fruits and Vegetables
o Pods of broad beans
o English beans
o Chinese pea pods
o Miso and miso soup
o Fava beans
o Overripe fruit (especially bananas and Avocados)
o Raisins and other dried fruits
o Pickles of any type
o Canned Figs
* Dairy Products
o All cheeses (Except for cream, cottage, farmer and ricotta)
o Frozen yogurt (Fresh yogurt is OK up to the expiration date on the container)
o Sour cream
o Red wine
o Beer and ale (including alcohol-free)
o Liqueurs and fruit brandies
o (Truly moderate amounts of white wine, gin or vodka are OK)
o Over four servings of caffeine-containing drinks such as coffee, cola drinks, etc.
o Soy sauce
o Brewers yeast (Bread, cake, cookies etc. are OK as they do not contain brewers yeast)
o Over one ounce of chocolate
Drugs to Avoid with MAOIs
It's not totally understood how various MAOIs interact with the body. Some are more likely to have negative interactions with foods and drugs than others. To be as safe as possible, avoid the following drugs while you are taking an MAOI antidepressant and for two weeks after stopping it.
* All SSRIs (prozac, zoloft, and several other anti-depressants)
SSRIs block the reuptake of serotonin in the brain. Because MAOIs inhibit the breakdown of serotonin, the combination of MAOIs and SSRIs can lead to dangerously high levels of serotonin in the brain (serotonin syndrome). Symptoms of serotonin syndrome include nausea, vomiting, blackouts, memory loss, increased blood pressure and increased heart rate.
* Cold preparations (tablets, capsules, or liquids such as Comtrex)
* Cough medications containing decongestants, Dextromethorphan (DXM)1, or Demerol
* Sinus medications
* Nose drops or nasal sprays
* Nasal decongestants
* Hay fever medications
* Diet pills
* Amphetamines --- speed
* MDMA --- Ecstasy
* MDE, MDA, and other "MD" compounds
* Cocaine --- crack
MAOIs can and will dramatically increase the effects of some of these drugs to the point of becoming dangerous. Other plants and chemicals are intentionally combined with some reversible MAOIs (plants such as Syrian Rue or Banisteriopsis Caapi, or their primary active chemicals the harmala alkaloids) to intentionally increase the effects of chemicals such as DMT (as is done in many forms of the ayahuasca brew) or sometimes phenethylamines such as Mescaline or 2-CB. All of these "potentiating" combinations can be dangerous if used improperly.
That may seem extream to some, but so does tripping balls in the ER with cops looking in your room.......
Ok, I hope you understand the MOAI part. Now we come to how to drink the stuff. Its bitter stuff, you can either chug it or sip it. As far as my own dreams go it does not really matter. I think those who chug it and those who spend an hour sipping are extreme, but there is really no wrong or right way to do it.
Setting is very important. You should not be alone the first time, in reality Ayahuasca is a social experience. One should be in the company of people they trust and are comfortable with. Music and Ayahuasca can be a good thing and a bad thing. Music effects the tone of the experience and the nature of the visions. Something ambient and calming almost always works well. Do not be supprised if some types of music are worse with Ayahuasca than someone running their fingers down a chaulkboard.
Icaros are prefered by most people who use Ayahuasca. Check these out:http://archives.mycotopia.net/discus/messages/5/96387.html
They do not sound like much in your normal state of mind, but with Ayahuasca they take on a life of their own. One can actualy share their visions with other people by creating an icaro. Certain sounds create a certain sort of vision. They can also change the tone of the experience.
What is the experience like? If one has done a large dose of shrooms (5 grams plus), its sort of like that. Sort of is a stretch but its close. Its more a more serious, mature spirit. One does not lose ones self as with a large dose of shrooms. The experience comes in waves for most people. You will be in the center of a thermonuclear trip for a few minutes and then in a more shroom like trip for a few minutes, over in over again. Its like being in the ocean with huge waves coming at you. When they hit you its what is described as a "flash". It literally can be a flash...
The purge may or may not happen. Most of the time it does come from one end or the other. Its not as bad as you may think it to be. I suspect our culture considers purging to be a sign of illness, wile many consider it to be a form of purifacation. If anything its good practice in not keeping in foul stuff, be it mental or physical. Just get rid of them as fast as they apear or they will make you sicker. Its also a good idea too keep a bucket by the toilet, just in case the purge hits you from both directions at the same time. For most people the purge is perhaps the most fearful part of the experience. In reality, when it happens and is over with, it really is not that bad. Pretty hard to believe, but its true for most people.
In reality the first time is more than most people want. It was for me. I could not wait for it to be over. It was wave after wave of fear and looking at my own problems in life from a perspective in which I could not avoid them. It alot like being in the center of a psychedelic thermonuclear device. But after its all over you feel washed, clean, at peace. Its wonderful and it lasts for days and sometimes weeks.
When the experience is over one should slowly drink some water or gateraid. One should relax and get some rest. Falling asleep during the experience is not a bad thing. I used to be afraid of it but after doing it a few times its really a nice thing. Its like sleeping on clouds, being weightless. Its a very light sleep and if you need to purge you will wake up very quickly.
Ayahuasca and water seem to go together. The sound of water during the experience is indescribable. Being in the water is not recommended unless you have someone watching you not drinking the brew. I will say that being in a bath or hot tub is a very powerful physical experience, strangely enough its almost orgasmic.
The next day you should follow the MAOI restrictions for at least 12 hours after the experience. Sleep in, take a walk in nature and spend time with those you love.
All in all if you do this once a month it will be to your betterment. It will cost you about $200.00 a year. I suspect there will be those who will never do it again after the first shot. My advise would be to give it 3 tries before giving up on it. 3 tries in 3 months. Do not be supprised to find that you will be seeing your life and your spirituality in a differant light. Strangely enough you will begin to really take care of your body, you will start to change you diet to a healthier one, your relationships may even improve. With most people I have known it has been a very positive experience.
I myself am taking a big chance giving out this information. We all do when we post things like this. I am sure society would be supprised to find out very few of us shroomers and brewers are the lowlifes they would like to believe we are. Most of us have wives, children, jobs, responsibilities. I may sound like I am preaching but we need to keep giving this information out. All of it. Make them see that we are not all selling crack on the street corner to children. LOL! This could turn into an interesting rant, but in a few words; be smart, educate yourselves on these things, experience them, teach others and hold your head high and never be ashamed of the fact you want to see and experience more than our culture and society could ever offer us. We may never get to go to outer space, but we can go to inner space, a place just as much a new frontier and just as alien.
A horrible [email protected]#% (Brick_top)
Post Number: 48
|Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 05:22 pm:||
Wow, great post. Thanks! I've only brewed once with some small success, so I don't have anything to add here. But my interest has been re-sparked.
(Message edited by brick_top on September 06, 2004)
Post Number: 662
|Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 07:18 pm:||
Great , informative post.....thanks ! One thing I've never heard mentioned before : "Ganja tends to wash out the effects of Ayahuasca. It can also delay the effects by 2 or 3 hours. " Where did you get that info from ? I've found marijuana to be an important aid with Aya (or mushrooms) . With Aya , it helps me control the nausea . More importantly , it can tip me over the threshhold when the Aya dose isn't quite enough .....seemingly just the opposite effect as stated in your post .
Post Number: 2494
|Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:04 pm:||
I found some short icaros here...you can even dowload them by right clicking and saving as.
They are wave files so you can easily convert them into mp3 or leave as waves and burn onto a disk to get to enjoy later.
Hope this helps, Thoth, you're post was good. I've still not found time to partake.....life has thrown me a few curveballs but I think I'm about to swing.
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
Post Number: 1541
|Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 10:14 pm:||
very nice work!
Post Number: 25700
|Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:53 am:||
i differ though on the MAOI restrictions,
the caapi's MAOI effects are small and short-lived, there really is no need to restrict your diet 24-36 hours after, i've found that about 8 hours after coming down i can eat just about anything i want.
Post Number: 34
|Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 03:15 pm:||
I think those numbers are just to be on the safe-side for new people trying the 'huasca. But you know it in your guts when you can eat the foods or not. When you come down, the aya "storm" in your guts gets calmer, and when it's settled, the foods are safe to eat.
Post Number: 851
|Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 03:29 pm:||
I really like smoking DMT and would like to try Ayahuasca but I can't seem to eat right. But if I do, does anyone know how it compares with smoking it? I love the trip but it doesn't last long enough, so will doing aya make it last longer but be similar or is it a total different trip?
Post Number: 52
|Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 12:20 am:||
i differ though on the MAOI restrictions,
the caapi's MAOI effects are small and short-lived, there really is no need to restrict your diet 24-36 hours after, i've found that about 8 hours after coming down i can eat just about anything i want."
I think it depends on the person. 12 hours is probably more realistic. I have found that if I drink coffee less than 12 hours after I get a horrible headach that lasts for hours. But I have read where people actualy drink coffee during the experiance in S. America. I want to say the MOAI thing is a bit overblown, but I realy only know how my body will react to certain things. I Usualy just eat light the day of the dream and the day after. Fresh foods, nothing cured or aged.
Post Number: 53
|Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 12:32 am:||
" really like smoking DMT and would like to try Ayahuasca but I can't seem to eat right. But if I do, does anyone know how it compares with smoking it? I love the trip but it doesn't last long enough, so will doing aya make it last longer but be similar or is it a total different trip?PB"
Its very differant in some ways, but a good hit of Ayahuasca can be just as powerfull as smoking DMT. Its most certainly DMT space, but with a more "shamanic" twist to it. Its more of a medicine for the mind and body as well as a "trip.
Post Number: 392
|Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 11:36 pm:||
Cool post thoth, you put a lot of work into that.
It is very interesting that you said aya and water seem to go together. I have always felt that too!
On aya, I love the sound of a running tap. I like looking at water in a glass or toilet bowl. When I flush the toilet, I love the sound if the cistern re-filling. When I drink water, I feel like I am watering the vine. When I drink pv, I imagine it is sludgy water from the amazon river. Weird!
Post Number: 2
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 12:50 am:||
I like smokin' nndmt, too, some times I smoke rue seeds first and do a fumoasca.
In general, I find aya more like shrooms, but I also find that when you get into the heroic range, the hyperspace from aya, elfspice, or shrooms is identical. I contact the same entities....
Now, if i can learn to tell mycellium from mold, I will know everything!
Post Number: 55
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 02:13 am:||
"It is very interesting that you said aya and water seem to go together. I have always felt that too! "
One of my greatest experiances was in a very hot bathtub. I Found myself above myself, looking down upon myself. The room and my body looked very much like an Alex Grey painting. Then I met and had some sort of a "conversation" with a female entity... The strange part about this is that the experiance took place a good hour after the major effects of the brew wore off. Taking a good hot bath after the experiance is a very wonderfull experiance.
This experiance was much more powerfull than any experiance I had smoking DMT. Time literal stood still, everything around me was frozen. To me it was like being in the space between my thoughts.
Post Number: 56
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 02:18 am:||
In general, I find aya more like shrooms, but I also find that when you get into the heroic range, the hyperspace from aya, elfspice, or shrooms is identical. I contact the same entities...."
I did shrooms for many years before Ayahuasca. I did some serious work with Ayahuasca for a year and then ate a good 5 gram dose of shrooms. The experiance was, and has been very differant since using Ayahuasca. The visions are much more powerfull and more vivid. The content is also more like the content of an Ayahuasca vision. This is very strange..
Post Number: 673
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 03:27 am:||
"The visions are much more powerfull and more vivid. The content is also more like the content
of an Ayahuasca vision. This is very strange."
I've also noticed this .....very strange indeed . It's like the Ayahuasca sets something into motion...and the mushrooms continue it along . I've even had episodes of purging with the mushroom , which never happened even once....before Ayahuasca .
Post Number: 2532
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 05:26 am:||
What are anyones experiences with adding a gram or two of cubensis to the brew? Maybe only in the last extraction? Or the final reduction before straining?
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds."
Post Number: 25799
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 01:10 pm:||
I have found that if I drink coffee less than 12 hours after I get a horrible headach that lasts for hours.<!-/quote-!>
now that i can agree with,
i've had a coffee headache before,
drank some once about 6 hours after coming down
just to 'perk up' and my head was pounding,
think blood pressure went thru the roof.
but i think it's the caffeine interacting with the MAOI. a non-caffeinated food likely wouldn't do that.
Post Number: 25800
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 01:14 pm:||
the hyperspace from aya, elfspice, or shrooms is identical. I contact the same entities.... <!-/quote-!>
because you still have the same brain...
and that is where the vision forms.
many attributes/characteristics of our visions
are directly traceable to our brain structure.
the sensation to i am you and you are me
and we are all i
that's your brain which only knows itself
so it sees itself everywhere it looks.
Post Number: 25801
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 01:18 pm:||
What are anyones experiences with adding a gram or two of cubensis to the brew<!-/quote-!>
i've seen a few trip reports
but personally i would not do it
for at least two good reasons.
one, aya's hard enough on the stomach,
no need to add shrooms to the mix
tripping with a belly-ache is no fun
two, mixing drugs is complicating
an already complex situation
making it harder for you to distinguish
and experience the nature of each.
Post Number: 59
|Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 04:48 pm:||
I have heard some bad reports on that combo, Aya brew and shrooms. Caapi and shrooms is very interesting, but in this case 3 grams of rue is a better choice in my opinion. Save the Caapi for the leaves.
In my opinion Caapi/Rue plus Shrooms is a very wild ride, but interesting. I would not recomend it to someone new to these things. The trip is extended and the visions are very differant. If one is experianced with shrooms they should do no mre than 2 or 3 grams of shrooms with the MOAI, at least the first time.