|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 04:34 am:||
Hello everyone!....Now this is the kind of dirty laundry I like!!!
Ok, who wants to do my dirty laundry?
Simply: Pasturized straw spawned with grains and cased on top...Never covered during colonization!...All done in an open environment!
Since the basket is open all over you might wonder why I cased it on top and not on the sides...Well, I know straw will fruit without a casing, but I wanted to clearly see how much of a difference a casing makes...
As you can see the casing is fruiting wildly...What you can't see is the real magnitude of how many pins there are coming out the sides of the casing....This clearly proves how important a casing is...without it the mycelium hyph seam to stay flat and sort of matted...but with a casing the hyph stretches out to create pins...You can really see how a mushroom is formed when you make Qt jars of grain and allow it to pin and grow in the jar...You will see the hyph stretch out to form a pin...You will also notice that the stem is nothing more than the mycelium hyph growing larger to form a mushroom...This is why cottony mycelium doesn't produce as well...Cottony mycelium doesn't form hyph as well...
One thing I did do is just as the mycelium started to grow into the casing I took a stick and scratched the hell out of it and the straw beneath...If I would have taken more care with watering it so that the casing wouldn't compact I would have even better results...but I like to Keep it simple!...so I just watered it from a gal jug...
If you want more detail just do a search for Laundry Baskets or Close Baskets and you will find what I have written...
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 04:52 am:||
Wow that's beautiful!
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 05:49 am:||
how deep is that basket... and how deep is that straw?? looks kick ass
The Elf (Fletop)
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:19 am:||
I don't understand why it isn't fruiting further down along the sides of the basket? Why just the top area? 'Cause of the casing?
Looks AWESOME! Great work!
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 08:43 am:||
So I've been reading up on all your work with a fury and I have one thing to say.
You my friend are a brilliant man
Thanks for all the insight
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 03:17 pm:||
looking good, amazing demonstration of the effectiveness of casing straw.
of course now we want more, spell it out for all those who might see those pics down the road and wonder how you did it in minute detail.
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 05:49 pm:||
Woow cool stuff
What kind of caesing did You use?
Thanks and ceep on doing the great work
|Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 11:30 pm:||
Thanks for the compliments!...I've know for a long time that one of my best qualities is being able to look at seemingly complex problems and to simplify the understanding of what is going on...My goal when I first started was to simplify everthing...and to Keep it Simple Stupid...KISS...What I did was try to understand how mushrooms grow outside and what we were doing wrong by trying to control their manmade enviroment...Trust me when I say I have had many more failures than successes...But without those failures I wouldn't understand what is going on and how simple it really is!...Right now to me it is so so simple...and I am just starting to miss the chalenge
To answer a couple of questions: Cowshitblues, the baskets are 1 bushel...12'tall and aprox 18" diameter...You will get aprox 5 baskets out of a bale of straw that is packed down very well...Walmart $2each...the size is perfect...easy to work with...
Elf, read what I stated above how the mycelium hyph grows and how it forms the pins...Without the moist casing the mycelium hyph doesn't reach out as well to form pins...Now even without the casing this basket would produce...what would happen is there would be less mushrooms but they would be larger and most likely less in total weight because it wouldn't be as efficent...
Now of course my next step is to impove on this...and I already have...You will need to wait another 3 weeks or so to see the results...
For those of you that need more detail just read everything I have posted...
If you want real sucess, beg or borrow(don't steal) $50 to build my simple pressure box...this will change your life!
I have decided to make a mini web site that will explain everything step by step from spore to shroom utilizing everything I have learned in the most simple terms while explaining the reasoning behind it...
Anyway when I got home from work today this is what I found...Oh,,,by the way I didn't mention before but this is the Strapharia strain...Personally I prefer Hawaiians, they are much more meatier!...
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:04 am:||
aha, yet another who notices that the stroph aren't very 'meaty', i.e. they dry to nothing.
are yours hollow, too, visions ?
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:11 am:||
i found this , we'll tack it on here to help explain your pix above.
also i'll tie these threads together as subtopics so folks can find them easily.
When I said nothing precise here I meant you don't have to be perfect...Gerneral cleanliness and aprox temps to pasturize...Get it close...do it fast...
DirtyWop...Follow Mycofile's tek and put the garbage can in the bathtub and pasturize then drain into the tub...Spawn with whatever you have...
Most likely it's getting too cold to start outdoors...so you will need a way to fruit inside...
This is what I am going to do as my raised bed outside starts to fizzle out...Get some large laundry baskets and drill some small holes in the bottom...then pasturize straw & Manure and layer it into the baskets using the mycelium from the raised bed as spawn...As I layer it I will put more Manure around the sides to case it then put 3/4" Manure on top...Pack it down...It doesn't have to be perfectly covered with Manure...DONT COVER IT with Plastic or anything else!...More Air=Less Contams...Now don't be silly and do this or leave it in an old moldy basement...the more fresh air the better...Don't water it until it is close to fruiting...Straw holds lots of water and too much will slow it down and anything else you add could be adding something you don't want to grow...
Here are a few general suggestions that I wish someone told me when I started...
#1)Build a Filtered Presure Box and do all your injecting,cloning and transfers in that box! I use a 6"..250CFM inline duct fan from home depot($20) I had to alter the fan a little...the fan in the duct leaves too much space between the duct and the fan blades so what I did is get some 3/4"Wide X 1/2"thick Self Adhesive Sponge tape Weatherstrip from Walmart and stuck the weatherstrip as close to the fan blades as possible and doubled it in thickness...if you don't the fan will push the air into the filter and bounce back...I got an Ultra MicroFilter by Filtrete from home depot taped on both ends(don't unfold the pleats in the filter)and a plastic tub from Walmart($6) with (2) 3 1/2" arm holes cut out...
#2)Don't grow or fruit from cakes...too much trouble for the results...more problems than it's worth
#3)Use Qt jars with Grains(I use Hard Winter Wheat Berries)....Start with your spores or Much Better Yet---Do grain to grain trasfers or if you have some cakes do cakes to grain transfers...All in that pressure box...When you do transfers to grains even though you are working in that box it's not perfect so it is best to take a bottle of hydrogen Peroxide on put a spray nozzle on it and give your grains one or two quick mists before you make your transfer...Now by doing this you have gone from about 21days using spores to start with to about 7days for complete colonized jars...So So So Much Easier!!!
#4)For all your Qt jars including liquid culture Use Filter Disks,Polyfil or use the extra Filtrete Ultra Microfilter and cut into small squares(you can get anywhere from 300-400sq out of a whole Filter...I have been using them and they work good and they are easy to use...just tape over the hole...I make the holes in my jars 3/4" round...
#5)Use Completely Colonized Spawn(whatever you use)to Spawn onto Straw & Manure
#6)Make your straw bed at least 8" deep and wide...If it's open on the sides like my Laundry basket will be it will need to be twice as wide or atleast 16" wide...In other words 8" Square...More is better...bigger fruits...less comtam problems...less moisture problems(a large pile won't dry out as quick and will be more consistant in temperature...
Lucky#7)Air Flow...More Air=Less Contams
Don't waste spores!...Have some caps that open all the way...Well Good!...Take them to your kitchen sink and use the sprayer and spray that cap forcefully with cold water and force out those spores into a bowl...OH!! You say they aren't sterile! No kidding!...You don't need them to be!...Only if you use them in an inclosed space will it need to be sterile!...Like I said before...Less Air=More Contams...Give them Air!!!...Toss them into a compost pile outside or just spread them around your World!
I have 3gal of spore water just like this that is a thick purple from my flush today...I think Iam going to reseed my lawn...What will I need(Grass Seed and Straw to cover it and Manure to enrich the soil...Hummm...Get my drift?...
Anyway here are a couple more pics...
Wheat Berries Qt Jar
Hawiian 1st Flush one cluster
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:18 am:||
you ought to tie it all together, visions, from pillow case to laundry basket, it's pretty inovative in a field grown pretty stale.
looking forward to seeing your site when it's ready.
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:32 am:||
Comparing them to Hawaiians...they are smaller all around...yes they do seam to be more hollow...A little faster growing than HA...but who cares the results are what count...In all cubies you will notice that the caps weigh almost noting after dried...the stem is where it counts...and Strapharia don't cut it...Hollow stems...No Meat!...But I am not complaining...
Hip what do you think so far?...
Here is a little insite...on what is comming next...Straw pasturization is less than 160*...more like 130*(hot tap water)...Lime & Bleach added,,,soaked for 1hr to 24hrs(sometimes you don't have time to do it right and the project get postponed to the following day)...Or was doing the right way really the right way?)...I don't think it matters when you add the Lime & Bleach...
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:36 am:||
So you guys have me all confused about sterility...
I'm about to make the jump from cake style propagation to casings...where does the sterility factor fall in there?
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 01:50 am:||
Some casings are easily prone to contamination. Pasteurize anything (except) vermiculite you try to use in a casing, soaking it first to active the contams.
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:00 am:||
ok, where visions is going here is a long ways from cakes and casings as you know them.
this method is a very basic bulk technique that has both a sterile and a non-sterile part.
the grain used for spawn, be it wheat, rye, rice, birdseed, whatever, is grown out in sterile conditions [quarts with filtered lids] until fully colonized.
once fully colonized, it's fairly resistant to contams and can survive exposure to unsterile air, just handle with clean tools, gloves and keep the area clean.
it's then mixed with dung/compost and straw.
both dung and straw are pretty contam resistant 'as-is' and can be used in open air, like colonized grain, once pasturized.
you can pasturize by heat or by chemicals [bleach/lime] as visions and i mention above.
the grain and pasturized dung/straw are mixed well and layered in a basket/tray to colonize and eventually fruit.
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:05 am:||
so far i'm pretty impressed, visions.
your method is quite basic, in line with the KISS principle you've cited before, yet obviously highly effective.
the materials, tools needed are simple, cheap and widely available in most areas.
the addition of the bleach has improved your success rate in open air, where we know it thrives.
all in all, i like it. it's a good low tek way to get large crops with minimum overhead .
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:12 am:||
Thanks hip for taking the time to find those links for everyone...
Hip you have been so much help to me over the past 2yrs...Thanks!...You didn't know you knew me that long did you?...I started learning from the old site..
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:33 am:||
geez...it is coming up on 2 years here pretty soon, mycotopia.yage.net clicked on in early feb of '01.
thx for sticking around and giving back to all these others who'd like to imitate your success.
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 02:45 am:||
Mycowhosit, very simply: Make what you will use as spawn sterile...like grains, cakes(not prefered by me)...Then spawn to pasturized straw that has been drained well and case it...Unless your straw is way too wet it won't contam...The larger your straw bed the better...Fresh air is the key!...More air flow = Less Contams...so don't cover it until it starts to fruit...covering then will help hole in moisture to the shrooms dont dry out as they grow...Also a large bed will hold in more moisture and keep the temp more even...Larger = larger fruits but less of them...also the bigger it is the less contams can penetrate...In nature the outside of a straw bed will dry out making a natural filter to keep out contams...The inside will stay moist and sterile that is perfect for the mycelium growth...
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 03:09 am:||
Hip, here are some cased grains...left in open enviroment next to my computer...Holes poked in the bottom of the pan...Grains were packed down...Initally watered with 1/4tsp bleach water in a gal jug...after than any water was used,,,my drinking water...etc...
You know what is coming soon...I will keep the casing moist...What I am showing is that the More Air=Less Contams...Once the shrooms start I may cover at night loosely with plastic if they look like they are drying out...but remember...stale air= Contams...so don't leave that plastic on 24hrs...8hrs is long enough...they need to breath...
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 04:00 am:||
just made 8 agar and 3 potato-broth jars of b+,
with some rye soon to follow. i'll have to see if i get similar results, pretty dirty grow environ i cope with so the bleach might make the diff.
i like b+ on straw anyway, so it'll be fun.
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:14 am:||
So would cakes also benefit from fresh air more so than circulated air or fanning in a terranium?
Why grains? Do they not colonized up as tightly?
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:30 am:||
What keeps the dung from falling out the large holes in the laundry basket? If this potential mess is a problem, could plastic screen be used. I mean, would mycelial grow through the screen or would it just push out on the screen?
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 06:33 am:||
I hate to post numbers but this will give you an idea on how well it works...1st Flush wet weight=5.5lb
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 08:59 am:||
I am completely in awe, nice work man
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:21 pm:||
also in awe.
wow, this is one of those things that make you go hmmmmm....
and the wheels start turning..
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 05:24 pm:||
I'm kickin myself in the ass for all the money I've spent on fans, humidifiers, etc. I really like the advice on not wasting spores... Johnny Applespore... I still don't understand what holds all that mess (substrate) together so nicely.. or does the packing hold it. What do ya'll think on the plastic screen (like porch screen, maybe a larger grid size). I may try wrapping a cake in screen and see if it fruits through.
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:24 pm:||
Hip, since you are thinking of doing this...Since the baskets have large holes I put 3 of them together and turned each one so that the holes would be coverd...Lined with 2 39gal lawn & leaf garbage bags...When I pasturized my straw...I added 5 heaping tbs lime & 1/8cup bleach...to each basket...I mixed it in little by little as I was filling the baskets with water....My water was only hot tap...130*-140*...As I was filling the baskets with water you know the straw compacts so I would keep adding more...Then I covered the straw with about 2" dehydrated manure(this helped hold in the heat)while I was still filling it...You'll figure out what I mean...Pressed out the air and tied it closed...I let my straw soak at the very min 1hr...several batches soaked 24 because I had things to do and didn't feel like doing it...Got the same results as far as I can see...No contams...Quick colonization...
Wongbater, the straw isn't chopped...the basket was filled with straw with a little manure mixed in then cased on top with about 1"- 1 1/2" of dehydrated manure...Initially straw was sticking out all over the sides...after 2 weeks I cut the straw so it would be flat on the sides...
The baskets you use must have large holes...or the mushrooms will get trapped under the basket...Even with these large holes the mushrooms still get trapped...
Wongbater...you did sort of hit on something...In about 3 weeks you will see my next phase...The baskets will be lined with a fine mesh...then about an 1" or so of pasturized manure will be stuck to the that mesh...then the straw will be added and the manure casing on top...this will be allowed to colonize...when the mycelium takes over the manure on the sides and strarts to grow into the mesh the whole thing will be removed from the basket...the mesh removed...then put back into the basket...then lightly misted on the sides and watered good on top...at this time the mycelium should hold together the manure on the sides but you will need to be careful not to over wet the sides so it doesn't fall apart...
If the amount gained by doing this isn't very substantial then personally I wouldnt bother...why go through the mess...As I said before the 1st flush was 5.5lb wet...and it was easy with min mess...I am not sure if I will even get a second flush...if the water content is right you can get it all in one flush...with straw anyway...We'll see soon enough
|Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 11:47 pm:||
one point i didn't see mentioned yet,
how much grain spawn did you use per basketful ?
|Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 12:26 am:||
In my first wave of baskets like the one you see I used 3Qt jars of Hard Red Winter Wheat Berries...Other baskets since then I have used 4Qt(not because it was needed...I like to use alot of spawn)...But when I use Millet 3Qt jars are plenty...breaks up finely and gives great coverage...
|Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 12:52 am:||
I like to use alot of spawn too.
mush room (Mr_Mush)
|Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 01:40 am:||
How long did it take for the process from spawning the baskets until you got your first fruit? A large basket like that seems like it would take forever to colonize. also, did you use fresh straw or would it really matter. I have lots of straw around my house but it is a year or so old and i dont know if the nutritional value is still there. congrats, the pics are awesome
|Posted on Friday, November 22, 2002 - 06:20 pm:||
Hope I'm not butting in. "Old" straw should be fine. It has to age anyway to cure the green away, and it's not like farmers throw away hay/straw. Just make sure it hasn't gotten moldy..
mush room (Mr_Mush)
|Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:14 am:||
your not butting in, thanks for the info wong . I just started some Z-strain fruiting this week so hopefully ill have some cool pics for everyone soon!!!
|Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:44 am:||
Mr Mush, 22days to see pins...aprox 7 days later they were finished...So a month...Build my simple pressure box$50 and do grain to grain transfers and your grains will be 100% in 7-10days...Now when I do grain to grain I use about 2tbs to inoculate the new jars and most finish in 5 days...So to look at the whole picture if you do grain to grain transfers you should have your crop between 5 to 7weeks tops...I keep my temp in my grow room between 72*-76*...everything drys out less...less stress on the mycelium...and they prefer to fruit at these same temperatures...
|Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:55 am:||
Wongbatter...since cakes arent that big...you can put it into something that will leave at least 2" all the way around it...Container must not be see through...put lots of holes in the bottom of the container...get dehydrated manure if you can or use Jiffy Mix(the green bag)...Pack it down around it then lightly on top...put 1/4tsp bleach in a gal jug of water...soak everything and it will drain...after that just mist with water...don't cover it...when the shrooms start to get some size you can lightly cover it with plastic to hold in some moisture so they don't dry out...you should get less shrooms but they will be bigger
|Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:04 am:||
I want to say THANK YOU!!! I have been wanting to try some straw and Poop out. I think I am gonna give it a try. I was also thinking could you or have you tried an Inner Resevoir out?! Maybe add a lil honey,karo or Dex in the resevoir after 1st flush? Just a thought not sure if it would work or just let The Green Monsters in.
I am gonna wait on that site to make sure I do everything right.
|Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 10:48 am:||
I have 1 other question. I have been reading the Archives (like a good lil shroomer). I have not seen anything or anyone ask about where you keep the baskets. What are temps and humd in your area ect...From what I gather they are left on a table or on floor. What should be the temp and humd.
|Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 03:24 pm:||
Toadstooll, just do a search with my name and you will find everything....well almost everything...some things have been lost...don't fret the info you need is there...
Toadstooll why complicate things with resevoirs etc,,,, and any type of sugar isn't a complete form of nutrition for the mycelium....
If you want to save that basket of used straw and mycelium use it to spawn new baskets...but do it right after your pick your first flush....Don't wait...After the mycelium has produced it won't be as strong so the longer you wait the weaker it will get...I know, I have several baskets that were made at the same time as the one you see here and they were spawned using straw from a used bed...they are working...but they are already 2weeks behind...Not worth the trouble while growing indoors....Now if you can grow outside in the summer this is a fantastic way to keep a straw compost bed going...
|Posted on Sunday, November 24, 2002 - 03:55 pm:||
inner reservoir for cakes. now you can inject some nutes in a sealed inner reservoir, but use malt water or rice milk, something better than just sugars.
|Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 09:38 pm:||
Hip here is that cased grain from above...All in open air...First flush...I have something very interesting to post about this....These are Hawiians...look closely...anything look strange about them?...I will start a new thread and tell you...You're going to like this too...
|Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 12:15 am:||
ok, you have my undivided attention now...
|Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:08 am:||
Here we go again...These are Hawiians...baskets average 5-6lb....A noticeable difference from the Strapharia strain from my first baskets from above pins like crazy and produces alot of mushrooms...Hawiians produce less mushrooms but are larger...
Some of the baskets were cased on the sides with the manure but as you can see it seems as they prefer to fruit on top...Yet I have gotten large clusters growing on the sides but nothing like what grows on top...So I have no definate answers except that it didn't seam to make a difference in the final weight....So all in all...to me it's much easier to just case the top...
Spawned---exactly 21 days later I saw pins---7 days later they were finished.....4weeks to the day just like my last baskets
Every basket was misted heavly every day(humidity is very low here...it's freakn cold here)...I didn't do anything to add humidity to the room...I don't know what the humidity is because it doesn't matter...1/4ts bleach was added to a gal water and used to mist...When they got close to fruiting I soaked them really good...If you wanted to be more precise with the watering then when you see knotting keep the misting to a minimum but keep it humid...this will give you a better pin set...But I personally don't care to be that precise...I just give them water like it or not...LOL...excess will drain....thats why there are lots of holes drilled in the bottom of the baskets..
This about 1/3 of the cluster...I wanted to get it all in one large cluster but it came apart...
2 weeks after the baskets were spawned I started covering them with these clear lawn & leaf bags...
Never had a contam...
|Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:53 am:||
!!!!!! THAT IS F-ING COOL
I and probably many others would like to see this as an official organized tek with substrate and casing recipes.
Awesome work Visions! Can you get those baskets at wal-mart?
|Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:40 pm:||
so i take it then that the sticks are in there to support that plastic bag ?
my b+ on rye's ready now, i'll be starting one of your baskets this week once i assemble all needed supplies.
|Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 01:56 pm:||
i got b+ on wheat
should be ready in a week
i must also do a basket
|Posted on Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 11:16 pm:||
Visions, first of all, that work is SICK! In the best way.
Second, do you eat the fruit, cause they're so mature...
Way cool. the KISS principle must be the missing verse from the Tao Te Ching.
Or at least the Tao of the Shroom
|Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 02:52 am:||
Thanks for the complements everyone...
Yes I got the baskets from Walmart for $2
After weighing all my baskets today the one that was only cased on top produced the most 6.38lb.....So a bale of straw will roughly net 25-30lbs...I absolutely don't need anymore so that is it for me...So in the freezer they go for my old age...It's been alot of fun!!!
Pneuma9, the baskets you see are a little mature...They didn't look like they were quite ready before I went to bed...Woke up about 5hrs later and they were finished...You can't be perfect...And about potency they are plenty potient...I don't believe that they get less potient as the cap opens,,,I would have to see scientific evidency...When the mycelium starts to pin there is a chemical change in the mycelium to make the Magic...it's in all the mycelium...The mushroom is just an extention of the mycelium...The energy and the magic is transfered as the mushroom grows...
Thanks to everyone that has helped me!!!!
I will compile everything I know into one tek as soon as I have a couple days to do it right...
If you can't wait for me to organize it all...LOL...Cause I know you can't wait!!!...Everything you need to know is here...just do a search with my name and you will find it...Read it over and over and soon you will understand how simple it really is!
The most important thing you can do is build that pressure box!!!...it will cost you $50
My Christmas wish to everyone here is that you use this information wisely...
? ? ? (Killdannow)
|Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 04:48 pm:||
I just want to join everyone in thanking you for bringing this new understanding vision. This is a big step for us indoor mushroom cultivators.
That said, Ive read everything i can find over and over again, yet still have a few questions. Perhaps too many edits are confusing me or something.
You say it prefers to pin and fruit on top, so should the manure on the sides be cut completely? or does that help hold in moisture? also, there should be a good amount of manure mixed into the straw, right? Visions you said I could get dehydrated manure at franks, when i went there they told me it was out of season, same thing with the lime. Anyone have any other sources for these?
Thanks all, and enjoy this season. Visions gave us all a wonderful christmas present here, lets use it.
? ? ? (Killdannow)
|Posted on Monday, December 09, 2002 - 06:46 pm:||
also, did they only end up giving one flush or were there multiple flushes?