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loosid (Loosid)
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 07:36 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Foaf has gotten away from using lysol, as it is expensive, yucky smelling, and kills only 99.97% of germs and such while bleach (correct if wrong) kills everything.

now, he has been spraying the whole area with bleach solution 10% and has been thinking recently that the water dropplets are just falling down through the contams in the air and not sterilizing the air itself. he had read somewhere (think at a bakery where foaf works and they use bleach) but the material data sheet (msds) says it is only for use on surfaces, and is only 100% if is sits for like 30secs or something.

what is it about lysol that makes people use it in their glovebox?
what about spraying alcohol (yuck!)?
maybe a finer spray would allow a bleach solution to take out more contams in the air?
ugh!

thaaanks!
loosid
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JRK (Godfetish)
Posted on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 08:55 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Air can be sterilized a couple ways.

The easiest is with ozone or negative ion generators. The negative ion or extra oxygen aton attach to smells, spores, and just about anything else in the air and either make them fall straight down because of weight or make them attract to the nearest positively charged surface.

By attaching a large metal object to the ground wire, exposed metal piping, or grounded ductwork, you provide a magnet for these charged particles that can be wiped clean periodicly to completely rid the contaminents from your home.

The second is using chemicals meant to sterilize the air. Lysol is a liquid and only really makes it to the surface with very little contact with airborne contaminents. The droplets are just too large to be effective, but Lysol does have an air sanitation product called Oust. It micronizes the chemical so that it will actually stay airborne for some time. Hospitals have had air sanitizers for quite some time that work on the same principles but I am unaware of branding. At least one other sterilizer is available, but I have forgotten the name...Oust and it should be on most supermarket shelves.

Spraying alcohol is completely ineffective. Bleach may work if micronized, but I have a different solution here: http://archives.mycotopia.net/discus/messages/2/30789.html?1060566146 that kills more than even bleach and if not instantly, then within a couple seconds. It is more expensive than bleach though, but much less than Lysol in cost over time. I use that and the Ion generators.

Nothing will kill everything...99% or so is the best you will do. By using Ions, you can just wipe that extra 1% up and toss it with the trash.
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loosid (Loosid)
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 03:38 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yeah, that's kinda what i thought about the size of the dropplets.
that solution seems kindof week, though i believe you that it works, is it the iodine? i thought that listerine was mostly alcohol, which you said was not terribly effective.

two questions:
can an inexpensive Ion generator be made by one's self? it doesn't matter how hard it is really, it's worth it, and foaf used to be an electrician.

where minght one find a spray bottle that will micronize it's payload? orchid section of lowe's???
would be great thanks!
loosid
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JJ Walker (Lawnshrooms)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 05:16 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HEPA's also clean the air - you can run one in your area, and it will definitely keep it clean, if given sufficient time and in a sufficiently small area.

HEPA + Bleach solution for surfaces is a pretty good solution. Health Grade HEPA will remove 99.99% of .3 micron or less size things - just about everything.
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inexorable (Inexorable)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 07:47 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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JRK (Godfetish)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 08:33 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HEPA filters are just way too expensive...and that 99.99% is only from the best. You get a cheapo HEPA and you might as well use a furnace filter. HEPA is supposed to be a standard thing, but I have proven that they don't work that way. Tape a coffee filter over your "HEPA" outlet on your big HEPA unit. I do use HEPA for the intake and outlet on my glovebox and a 12x16 for my flowhood but there is no way I could afford to buy the model large enough to keep the whole area clean constantly.

Ion generator: http://www.tpub.com/electronics/viewtopic.php?topic=23&forum=3&0 good luck with the schematic =)

Really it's a 10kV-15kV DC circuit with an open ended needle that discharges the negative ions on the loop right before the ground, which has a couple resistors making the path of least resistance for the electron's flow the air instead of the ground. Not far off from an ozone generator which uses the same basic design except the ground has no resistors and there is a glass plate separating two metal plates instead of a pin, one of which is positive and the other is the ground...layman's description, but that should be accurate enough to give you an idea.

I would buy one, heh, no need to fry yourself 10-15kV is static electricity levels but it could still kill ya in the higher amplitudes...FMRC has one for $40 and you can find them all over the net for about the same.
Someone link FMRC for me please...I can't find it and I'm going to bed heh..
Google lists a lot for sale http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ion+generator&spell=1

Micronizing sprayers can usually be found in orchid sections of good nursery centers...you want a really, really fine mist. I've gotten some in the cosmetics area that makes superfine mists too, but they hold only like 6-8 oz.
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 03:48 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i have one of FMRC's ionizers en route, we'll test it and report back.
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Stephen L. Peele (Fmrc)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 04:25 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FMRC's "Dual Element Ion Generator" removes .001 micron! What else can get through....grin. We have used them in our own labs for many years. Even the EPA has ordered and used them. They are not all sold for about the same price. This ION is the BEST. It sells for $40.00. No other postage or hidden costs. I don't believe any of the other people come close to this price. The regular FMRC price was $125.00. If you want more information on this unique ION, just ask for it at [email protected] ----slp/fmrc
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 07:14 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

at how large of a radius are they effective ?
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Stephen L. Peele (Fmrc)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 04:12 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It can handle a 15' by 15' room.....or up to 1,800 cubic feet of air..........EVERY SECOND! Maybe you should request the ION flyer we email.....grin. If there was anything better, we would be using and selling it.....bigger grin. Everything that FMRC sells we use in our own labs. What we sell works. We don't sell anything just because we can make a profit on it. It has to produce, or its out of here. slp/fmrc
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 04:55 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

plz send me one of those email flyers, stephen.
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Imok Urok2 (Imok)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 05:22 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sharper Image has one for 5 payments of $70 (from an infomercial).
Just think of how many rooms you could cover for that
much with this unit
:)
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loosid (Loosid)
Member
Username: Loosid

Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:50 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so JRK,
you say that a piece of metal attached to a ground wire will attract the charged particles/contams?

foaf had a dream where he was trying to use an ionizer in a glovebox and he didn't think that the set up was optimal.
he thought that if the 'breeze' of ions that flows out of the ion gen. were to pass over the work and collect on a charged plate, which could be wipped with a strong bleach solution later. this would give a constant kindof 'prevailing wind'
whatcha think?!
loosid
Anything I post is relating strictly to legal, edible mushroom. I have nothing to do with any prohibited substances, plants or mushrooms.
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JRK (Godfetish)
Member
Username: Godfetish

Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:42 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes...negative Ion generators are more effective if there is a good ground for the particles to adhere to. Nobody says what happens to the particulates and saying that they ar just falling to the floor is laughable...yes they drop, but what happens to them next ya think? They can lose their negative charge and off they go into the air again!! The ONLY way to make ion generators fully effective is to be able to remove the particles.

Easy plans(minor electrical work involved):
I use 4 thumb tacks, a large piece of heavy foil, an alligator clip, wire, and a modified 3 prong plug to make a large wall mounted collector plate. Just tack the foil to the wall, attach the wire to the ground connector(Always green in the US, and is the third prong that not all plugs use if you have to have examples) on the plug and alligator clip, and clip onto the foil...hang within 12" of the floor horizontally, lower the better but 90%+ of contaminents are hanging out within 12" of the floor until you stir them up.

If after a week or so you don't see a marked difference between the foil on the wall, and new clean foil, then either your environment is sterile or the ion generator is not effective. Since you probably aren't Bubble Boy and don't live in a hermetically sealed glass cube, you will have contaminents and the Ion generator is probably faulty(LOTS are...lots, lots, lots...how are you gonna prove it? That's what the manufacturers count on...)

You could do the same inside a glovebox, maybe with a pie tin or something sturdier than foil. Naturally you are not going to see a huge amount of filth build up on the tin since the glovebox should be inherently clean for the most part.
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 6591
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:17 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is that plugged in or ?
i'm confused about the plug.

http://archives.mycotopia.net/discus/messages/1/29852.gif
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2beanklm (Rugrat235)
Junior Member
Username: Rugrat235

Post Number: 16
Registered: 8-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:25 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sounds dangerous.
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JRK (Godfetish)
Member
Username: Godfetish

Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:30 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup, just the ground wire is connected...

You don't want to put any electricity into the foil, but you do need it grounded to attract all those pesky negative ions your ion machine is tossing out to attach to the various ickie stuff in your room and unless you have exposed metal pipes, sheet metal venting, or a 10' copper pole to drive into the earth, then the ground connectors in your wall jacks are the best bet =)

It's rather simple...

Buy two to twenty feet of flexible 14 guage wire in green if possible...just buy what you will need. I have 2' right now, but with my greenhouse I had 20' to the nearest wall jack.

Buy one 3 pronged electrical plug. The cheapest are usually yellow plastic, and should do fine.

Buy one alligator clip.

Buy some heavy aluminum foil and thumb tacks.

Strip the insulation from both ends of the wire.
Get a screwdriver and open up the electrical connector. It should have a brass(or copper rarely) screw, a nickle(silver) screw, and a green screw inside. You connect the wire to the green screw and reassemble. Might be a good idea to wrap with black electrical tape to keep the single wire from being pulled out if the plug does not hold it well enough. The next step is to fasten the alligator clip to the opposite end of the wire. If you do not have a crimper or the clip does not have an attaching screw, a regular pair of pliers can substitute for them. Once it is all together, just pinch the foil's corner with the alligator clip and plug into the wall jack...

Pretty simple really...
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Hippie3 (Admin)
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 6428
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:37 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

archive material
http://archives.mycotopia.net/discus/messages/1/29852.gif
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JRK (Godfetish)
Member
Username: Godfetish

Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:43 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't say it's dangerous...

Certainly not more dangerous that running any other electrical devices in a high humidity area(cool mists, lights, heat sources) and moving them around.

The ground wire has no charge. If you go outside your house to where the electricity, gas or phone come in, you should see the end of a copper rod driven into the ground. That is what the green wire is attached to after it runs around from jack to jack in your home. If you touch the metal on your iron, the metal on your PC case, or almost any other metal on an appliance in your home then you have physically grounded yourself to earth. No danger...

If you are beyond paranoid and don't believe your house is wired correctly, go buy a 3 prong tester for $5. Home Depot or any hardware store has them.


(Message edited by godfetish on September 18, 2003)
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loosid (Loosid)
Member
Username: Loosid

Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 09:15 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow that's great info JRK, thanks!

what makes you think that many ion gen's are faulty?

foaf is quite sure that his ion from FMRC is working, he can see a little purple/blue spark at the tip of the discharge point and he can feel a "breeze" of particles discharging.
he has noticed that when he walks into the area of the ion, he can start to hear it ZAP things realy quickly, he thinks it's the particles he's stirred up getting charged.

but he has yet to see any build up on the positively charged base, it has been running for 24/7 in a smoking environment.
so for this reason he's not convinced that it is terribly effective.
he thinks this grounded plate is just what the doctor ordered.

thanks!
loosid
Anything I post is relating strictly to legal, edible mushroom. I have nothing to do with any prohibited substances, plants or mushrooms.
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loosid (Loosid)
Member
Username: Loosid

Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 09:27 pm:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

because it just seems like it's kindof incorrect to think that when there's a breeze of ions coming in one direction, and the diagram (in the ion's book) shows that the "clean air bubble" is like a 8 foot radius, then that's just not going to bring the charged particles all the way around and back to the charged base... not in the position that the ion is in now. there are way too many other things that the particles would collect on.

it seems like if someone wanted to get all the particles/contams out of the air a person would charge the air/particles, which would then be moved past a charged plate (this is the design of the sharper image ion) to collect the charged particles, and then out into the designated area!

um, yeah.
loosid
Anything I post is relating strictly to legal, edible mushroom. I have nothing to do with any prohibited substances, plants or mushrooms.
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JRK (Godfetish)
Member
Username: Godfetish

Post Number: 41
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 10:07 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you are seeing and hearing the "zap" then it is surely doing something...so you don't have to worry! It may be making more ozone than it should, but ozone works better than negative ions for destroying contaminents.

On those units, isn't there a filter before the collector plate? You may just not be seeing anything because the contaminents are ending up elsewhere, especially if you place the unit high(which you should do).

I sure would like some pictures of what it's guts look like. It does sound like it's doing it's job.

The bad units I'm talking about are the ones like this combo HEPA and Ion generator I have. It did NOTHING beyond filter the air until I went in and did a little modification to the needles that make up the jumping off point for the negative ions. It really lets them fly now! You can put a multimeter NEAR it and get a reading between the air and the ground.

I could go into the details of how the ion and ozone generators work, but it's lengthy and not important =P The point is, that it was wired wrong and wouldn't have done anything if it could and it was a $200 brand new unit! The entire line is like this! From the $39 to the $200...you get something that won't work, and even the filter let enough dust and crap through the sides to cover the innards with filth. I fixed that too...
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loosid (Loosid)
Member
Username: Loosid

Post Number: 49
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 05:50 am:Edit Post Quote Text Delete Post Print Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

after a few weeks of having it on, there is considerable build up of black dirt around the paper towel wrapped around foaf's ion collector plate. he says that it surely is working very well and was probably his best investment in the hobby.

he is now a true believer
loosid
Anything I post is relating strictly to legal, edible mushroom. I have nothing to do with any prohibited substances, plants or mushrooms.

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