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Why do you vote the way you vote? (seriously)


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#61 August West

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 12:02 PM

 

 

The notion that humans will save or destroy the environment always makes me chuckle. A lot of them do a pretty decent job of making the environment less hospitable for themselves but I'm putting my money on the "environment" outlasting any human notions of saving or destroying, whether they write words on paper in an attempt to salve it or not.

Glad you got a chuckle.

 

Well yes.  It's similar to people who cry, "Save the earth!" and "Protect the planet!"; the earth doesn't need salvation, nor the planet protection.  It's usually understood though, that when we talk this way — refer to "the environment" and express concern over its status — we mean an environment which sustains human life and the ecosystems which have nurtured us and the other beings with whom we share this planet on our long evolutionary rise.  I certainly didn't mean to imply that the present totality of our natural world is somehow "better" than the environment of Mars or some nameless asteroid.  But it's a lot more forgiving to insignificant little creatures like us. 

 

 

I have no doubt you understand this but I believe you are taking for granted a very large population of people who literally believe the planet needs saving. I believe it to be a marketing misstep. I wouldn't necessarily bet on it but the probability of people taking better care of their environment may have increased if the message was more specifically directed at saving themselves.

 

...insignificant little creatures like us. 

 

 

 

Maybe people are the problem...

 

 

Interesting paradox.

 

 

 

 

Maybe people are the problem...

 

And where does this take us?   A final solution?

 

Well, it has been argued that the Nazis were the forerunners of "the ecology movement".


Edited by August West, 21 January 2017 - 12:06 PM.

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#62 curandZero

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 12:20 PM

 

 

Maybe people are the problem...

 

And where does this take us?   A final solution?

 

We could start by accepting that there is no solution and cut each other a little slack.


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#63 Alder Logs

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 12:23 PM

People, each with an answer, seeing that alone they haven't the power to apply it.  So, when an individual finds another who can express their answer and it's close to their own, an alliance is formed.  Now, it becomes alliances versus alliances, governments, companies, corporations, religions, on and on.   Made up notions of individual identities, go on to make up group forms, these with struggles to have some particular made up individual's will rule the group form, and it's struggle and strife from the base to the pyramid's pinnacle.   What was the spawn of this struggle and the universal suffering it brings, if not our identity in and of separation?   Granted, we all start from there as the human condition here.  This can be seen.   Cannot it also be seen as folly and abandoned?  Who would lose anything real to stop being fake?


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#64 August West

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 12:30 PM

 

Back to Lao Tzu:

 

 

 

A couple of Murray Rothbard's pieces on Taoism seem fitting in this thread (I tried cutting and pasting but the formatting sucked. I don't necessarily subscribe to Rothbard's use of "Libertarian" but the analysis is intriguing):

 

The Ancient Chinese Libertarian Tradition

 

Libertarianism In Ancient China


Edited by August West, 21 January 2017 - 12:30 PM.


#65 Alder Logs

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 12:39 PM

Even the problem is made up and resides in notions of what people are, seen from the belief in what the individual is.    We all must start at home, as in what is said in Hexagram 43 of the I Ching: Breakthrough:

 

 

gallery_131808_1351_4545.gif

 

Hexagram 43 of the Wilhelm / Baynes, I CHING,

or BOOK OF CHANGES*

Kuai / Break-through (Resoluteness)

 

 

 

TUI -- The JOYOUS, LAKE is above
CH'IEN -- The CREATIVE, HEAVEN is below

 

This hexagram signifies on the one hand a break-through after a long accumulation of tension, as a swollen river breaks through its dikes, or in the manner of a cloudburst. On the other hand, applied to human conditions, it refers to the time when inferior people gradually begin to disappear. Their influence is on the wain; as a result of resolute action, a change in conditions occurs, a break-through. The hexagram is related to the third month [April-May].

 

THE JUDGMENT

Break-through.
One must resolutely make the matter known
At the court of the king.
It must be announced truthfully. Danger.
It is necessary to notify one's own city.
It does not further to resort to arms.
It furthers one to undertake something.

 

Even if only one inferior man is occupying a ruling position in a city, he is able to oppress superior men. Even a single passion still lurking in the heart has power to obscure reason. Passion and reason cannot exist side by side -- therefore fight without quarter is necessary if the good is to prevail.

 

In a resolute struggle of the good against evil, there are, however, definite rules that must not be disregarded, if it is to succeed. First, resolution must be based on a union of strength and friendliness. Second, a compromise with evil is not possible; evil must under all circumstances be openly discredited. Nor must our own passions and shortcomings be glossed over. Third, the struggle must not be carried on by force. If evil is branded, it thinks of weapons, and if we do it the favor of fighting against it blow for blow, we lose in the end because thus we ourselves get entangled in hatred and passion. Therefore it is important to begin at home, to be on guard in our own persons against the faults we have branded. In this way, finding no opponent, the sharp edges of the weapons of evil become dulled. For the same reasons we should not combat our own faults directly. As long as we wrestle with them, they continue victorious. Finally, the best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress in the good.

 

THE IMAGE

The lake has risen up through heaven:
The image of BREAK-THROUGH.
Thus the superior man
Dispenses riches downward
And refrains from resting on his virtue.

 

When the water of a lake has risen up to heaven, there is reason to fear a cloudburst. Taking this as a warning, the superior man forestalls a violent collapse. If a man were to pile up riches for himself alone, without considering others, he would certainly experience a collapse. For all gathering is followed by dispersion. Therefore the superior man begins to distribute while he is accumulating. In the same way, in developing character he takes care not to become hardened in obstinacy but to remain receptive to impressions by help of strict and continuous self-examination.


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#66 curandZero

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 12:51 PM

 

Interesting paradox.
 

Yup. 

 

One individual, limited in physical strength, dependent on a social support system, beset by tribal prejudice and habitual responses, with a short lifetime of a few-score years — qualitative existential insignificance. 

 

Ever growing number of said insignificant individuals, trapped within cultural history, errors and mistakes compounded over generations, numbers steadily increasing at the expense of other species, posturing and squabbling and consuming, self-styled "Lords of Creation" —  quantitative material significance.



#67 Alder Logs

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 01:22 PM

 

One individual, limited in physical strength, dependent on a social support system, beset by tribal prejudice and habitual responses, with a short lifetime of a few-score years — qualitative existential insignificance.

 

A Hell of a story.   Who is that?  

 

Is freedom to be found in any story?  Even if the story is all about some free "individual," does it, the story, somehow become real?  We write our stories and these become our prisons, and our prisons travel with us, everywhere we step.  We might even have built ourselves a luxury cell.   We might be the ultimate victim.   

 

Who are we when the story is seen through; who were we before our stories were conceived?   That we still is there, its own powers powering its stories.    Folly!   No blame.   Only opportunity.   Who can see this?  The witness is in awareness.  

 

Stay only as the witness.  See it remain, as everything else comes and goes.

 



gallery_131808_1351_10852.jpg


Edited by Alder Logs, 21 January 2017 - 03:59 PM.


#68 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 05:11 PM

The problem with our language here:

I want that fucking artificial construct to just leave me alone!

I want.

Leave me alone.

Are not those two italicised things the artificial construct of which you are talking about Alder?

This being wants the fucking artificial construct to leave this being alone.

;)

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 21 January 2017 - 05:12 PM.

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#69 Alder Logs

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 08:00 PM

What's the use trying to talk to presence when it's identified as an engineer?    These are invariably the hardest nuts to crack.



#70 Alder Logs

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 08:44 PM

Back on topic:

 

gallery_131808_1351_7090.gif


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#71 August West

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 01:33 AM

One of the above will be chosen for you.

?

 

 

If you're talking President, they're both chosen for you. It's a selection, not an election. But I know you already know that.



#72 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 07:36 AM

Back on topic:

 

gallery_131808_1351_7090.gif

 

I prefer the Torx screw, thank you very much.  It gets in there much better without stripping the head. :tongue:

 

This Lao Tzu guy was way, way ahead of his time... and that comic pretty much sums up his view of government.  Not much has changed in the last several millennium.

 

 

Now, on to Alders I-Ching Hexagram.  I noticed the interesting definition of this hexigram parallels the tarot card that bears the same name:

 

Tarot_Judgement.jpg

 

Notice the "lake" spoken of in the Hexagram, and the people "breaking through" death.  Very interesting!


Edited by SteampunkScientist, 23 January 2017 - 07:40 AM.





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