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Catattack some Agar 3.0


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#161 ChimX

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 11:18 AM

Say Cat,

After reading through this thread, on the first page, the following comment caught my attention: "Secondly, as microbe keenly points out, one can even see the chemical signals sent by the mycelium on the agar surface."

I recently knocked up a bunch of multi-spore Penis Envy cakes and noticed that every jar would quickly cast out a very light 'pre-mycelium' layer. After covering 85-90% of the jar, the myc would start to consolidate out from the inoculation points and into the thick rhizomatic mycelium that I'm used to seeing.

Initially I thought something was off, perhaps even cobweb, but they colonized 100% and fruited pretty decently: https://mycotopia.ne...1-no-roll-mspe/

I've never seen this 'pre-myc' with any other cube, TPB, B+, etc., and I'm wondering if these are the 'chemical signals sent by the mycelium' that you mentioned.

I isolated 3 different dominant sub-strains with the same PE spores, via Fahtster's Mycelium Syringe Tek, https://mycotopia.ne...ge-tek-revised/

I've noticed that only one of the isolates continue to present the same 'pre-myc' phenomenon, while the other 2 immediately colonize jars with the thick white myc I'm accustomed to.

Any idea what this is? Is there a specific term for this phenomenon? Can chemical signals stretch out over 90% of a jar before inoculation points even begin to consolidate? Would the reason that one of the isolates still exhibit this behavior be due to the fact that it's not truly an isolate?

Sorry for all the questions Cat, but I figured you'd probably know.

Aside from colonizing a little more slowly, it's not causing any grief, I'm just terribly curious lol.

Metta
-ChimX

Edited by ChimX, 13 April 2017 - 01:26 PM.

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#162 jkdeth

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 11:33 AM

Very curious. Interested in seeing what this might be.

#163 CatsAndBats

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 11:36 AM

Working on it, will get at this later. Maybe @microbe listened to the carrier pigeon that I sent. :biggrin:

 

 

@arathu, you'll like this: https://mycotopia.ne...under-the-deck/


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#164 Arathu

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 11:56 AM

I have to go out to work here very shortly......but briefly you're crossing into the wonderful world of micro-biology. Insane amounts of activity are happening in or on any substrate, agar first as an example, at the micron level. No way we're seeing it naked eye. By the time we are seeing things, hyphal filaments, tomentose growth, rhizomorphic growth, the numbers are MASSIVE. It's fascinating.............

 

I'm working reading through, studying, a couple of fungal biology books in pdf and saving my cash for a college level textbook..............yep I'm that warped............  :biggrin:

 

And I want to know too....what's going on............spore syringes, pf jars, and all that are cool.............but I want to know what's happening as the spore(s) germinates and send out that first hyphal filament. What's going on at the apex, how is it building single cellular layer walls, what is excreted and absorbed, how does it decide what substrates it likes and doesn't like, how does it adapt and attack other substrates, and on and on and on.............

 

 


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#165 Microbe

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 02:36 PM

I want to note that the initial growth that is first observed is where the chemical signals are located sending information back to the rest of the colony. If i stated that the haze was the chemical signals, i do apologize. The haze is actually biomass or hypha beginning to accumulate and is the start of expanding the colony.

Hyphae branching out from the rest of the colony are responsible for detecting the environmental conditions including nutrient sources. This information is learned by the entire colony by chemical signals being sent back through the rest of the colony where it becomes encoded in its DNA and can be passed on to subsequent generations assuming gene recombination doesnt eliminate it.

In my experience, gene recombination impacts phenotypes more then anything else. The enzymes acquired for example, and is relates to diet, is almost never loss. Trained cultures stay trained so to speak.

Whoa off track lol.....


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#166 Microbe

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 02:53 PM

@ChimX


The growth you mention can be a result of several factors or a combination of factors such as, but not limited to, PH, moisture, Temp, nutrient source, nitrogen content and etc.

Something else to consider is sectoring. This growth can be considerd sectoring. Many believe sectoring is visible lines that seperate sub strains throughout the culture. While this is accurate, any irregular growth is considered sectoring. Irregular growth can be difference in biomass (such as your case) speed, non uniform growth, and etc all are considerd sectoring.

It is possible you isolated a substrain that produces this type of growth in its current environment and nutrient source. This growth will most certainly change when you place it on grain or in a substrate.

I cant open your links for some reason. I would hit up a jar of grain and see what happens. NEVER judge fruiting potential based on mycelia mass or growing patterns......

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Edited by Microbe, 13 April 2017 - 02:54 PM.

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#167 cap10cubensis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 03:11 PM

Microbe nice answer man when I learned this in college it's blew my mind changed my perspective on what I believed fungi were and could do lol fungi is awesome
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#168 Microbe

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 04:21 PM

Microbe nice answer man when I learned this in college it's blew my mind changed my perspective on what I believed fungi were and could do lol fungi is awesome

Fungi have to be the most fascinating and advanced organisms on the planet.
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#169 cap10cubensis

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 05:50 PM

Microbe nice answer man when I learned this in college it's blew my mind changed my perspective on what I believed fungi were and could do lol fungi is awesome

Fungi have to be the most fascinating and advanced organisms on the planet.
U speak the truth brother sentient little fellows lol when I read mycelium running in 2005 or 2006 when it came out Paul stemets was my hero for a long time after that I jumped in full force and never looked back mushrooms saved my life as I'm sure most here would say 3920b666b7388acccb9136d9f884d66b.jpg

#170 tailsmcsnails

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 08:14 PM

even if I clicked LIKE on every post I couldn't express how much I love this thread.  So maybe I should do it thru....

interpretive DANCE?


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#171 Arathu

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 10:37 PM

Excellent!

 

A



#172 ChimX

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 10:40 PM

Agreed Tails. That's some seriously tasty and satisfying feedback Microbe. I've read it a couple times over and I'm sure I'll read it a few more times to let it sink in. Thanks for posting!

I noticed the link bug in my previous post as well, and hopefully a mod can take a look at it for us.

If I find any pics of the PE 'pre-myc' in my grow logs I'll certainly come back and post them here. It was entirely new to me and might be fun to check out.

Thanks again,
Metta
-ChimX
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#173 peacefrog

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 07:17 AM

Spot on advice from microbe.

Like said above, never judge a culture by the mycelial growth type only. While rhizomorphic growth is generally considered to be the"ideal" type of growth to isolate for cubensis, it doesn't mean you have a great producing culture. I have personally seen very fast rhizomorphic growth on agar produce poorly, while tomentose growth was superior and gave me canopies. So you just never know until you test. The best we can do, while isolating, is to pick the best and/or fastest growth to "us" to transfer. No one can predict how a particular sector will perform by only looking at the mycelial growth.
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#174 CatsAndBats

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 08:12 AM

While I happen top do all of my germination on agar (99%), I prefer to fruit out and then work with cloned material, knowing that I have a good fruiter, cleaning it up, and then using that as inoculant.

 

I pulled from this fruit and have been working on it with great success:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...r-30/?p=1307231

 

I couldn't find a pic of it fruiting, but it has given some cute flushes ;)

 

 

Speaking to @chimX's original post from yesterday:

https://mycotopia.ne...r-30/?p=1314876

 

Here's the original post that he's referencing:

https://mycotopia.ne...r-30/?p=1304028

 

After getting into agar and taking several  http://radicalmycology.com courses, one thing that I've learned and still use with tremendous success is the 'future food' concept that I talk about relentlessly :deadhorse:

 

The idea is to include trace amounts of whatever is going to be fed to the culture (my "catattives") at a later date at the earliest stage possible, in my case agar. So I'll include a touch of coir, oats, soil/dung, etc in my agar recipe to allow the mycelium arm itself with the proper enzymes ahead of time, to give it a leg up so to speak.

 

ChimX, even if one doesn't see the "pre-hyphal" chemical signals, they're there IMHO, that's how the myc "decide" what enzymes to produce as I understand it.


Edited by CatsAndBats, 14 April 2017 - 08:14 AM.

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#175 CatsAndBats

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 08:24 AM

Posting this here for easy reference:

 

 

You da man with that new name lol.

I usually make up enough to 6-8 jars and use a heaping teaspoon per jar filled with 15 ml. If I only make a couple of jars, I store the left over mix in a sealed ziplock bag. This doesn't work so well with MEA, but all the other recipes I use, it does well.

I have tried in the past to measure out just enough for 1 jar with mixed results. My scale is a cheap one from Office Max and doesn't even register until 2 grams. But if I make up a batch of PDA using 5 grams instant potatoes, 5 grams of agar agar, 2 grams of dextrose, the results are much better from my experience. So I just do that and store for later.

Than you Sandman for chiming in as well.

 

From here: https://mycotopia.ne...p-dirty-spores/


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#176 jkdeth

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 08:27 AM

I've been reading your stuff about future food, first I'll say you've got me convinced, so I'll be trying it, if I ever make it to agar.

Do you think think is something that benefits overall, or just speeds the process?

In a simpler tek, say a pf tek cake, could similar benefit be achieved by a ground flour additive of a potential substrate?

Do you think, once the future food tek has been used, the "knowledge" that the strain gains will carry over genetically?
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#177 CatsAndBats

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 08:49 AM

I've been reading your stuff about future food, first I'll say you've got me convinced, so I'll be trying it, if I ever make it to agar.

 

Firstly, the jump to agar is way easier than one would think. All one needs is a good attitude, some powdered agar, spores/culture, and a clean area.

 


Do you think think is something that benefits overall, or just speeds the process?

 

It speeds the process and I also think that one may train myc to defend/consume troublesome mold/bacteria using this process.

 

 

In a simpler tek, say a pf tek cake, could similar benefit be achieved by a ground flour additive of a potential substrate?

 

Agar is just as simple as pf tek IMHO and yes, I do it with everything. I add future food in trace amounts to my grain jars as well (in the soak). The key phrase being "trace amounts". Just a tiny bit will do, plus until one has their process down, one doesn't want to add a ton of stuff to grain spawn or brf/pf jars IMHO.

 

 


Do you think, once the future food tek has been used, the "knowledge" that the strain gains will carry over genetically?

 

That's being discussed currently. I asked @microbe that same question here:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...r-30/?p=1314716


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#178 jkdeth

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 09:19 AM

I definitely want get started with agar soon, but I am started with basically nothing, and pf tek is just the cheapest route, though that can change, not much in the way of finances right, first expenditures are going to have to go to a pressure cooker.

#179 jkdeth

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 09:21 AM

Oh, and I am following that thread as well.

#180 CatsAndBats

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 09:32 AM

I definitely want get started with agar soon, but I am started with basically nothing, and pf tek is just the cheapest route, though that can change, not much in the way of finances right, first expenditures are going to have to go to a pressure cooker.

 

Pressure cooker is key. I use this one, it runs $60 at walmart.

 

If one can afford the 23qt with the gauge, even better. It runs around $80 IMHO of course.

 

d7f57ae0-b1d9-44a4-be12-cabe4ed2831a_1.4


Edited by CatsAndBats, 14 April 2017 - 09:34 AM.





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