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#21 mate0x

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 11:19 PM

20170326_000508.jpg


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#22 mate0x

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 12:07 AM

mate how long do you estimate these will run for 15 or 20 years?

 

Should go 10 years.

 

Cree COB are rated for 50,000 hours.

Mean well drivers warranty for 7 years.



#23 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 05:09 PM

Hey everyone, been a while :) I know KCMO has a killer COB thread he's been working on, and I didn't want to clutter up his thread. That thread is a treasure trove of good information, and some grower skill.

 

I am gearing up to get a 4x4 going and I am still extremely disappointed in off the shelf LED offerings. This frustration is leading me down the DIY path.

 

This thread will be about that journey.

 

So, to be honest - my interest in COB is not very high. They do well, plenty of people are using them with great results- but the efficiency is not that great, and they act like a single point light source. Passive heat sinks need to be huge, and even active heat sinks tend to be pretty bulky.

 

My intuition tells me the high power single diode approach has still not been mastered - and they become cumbersome projects for the DIY crowd. You have complete control of the photon spread, and the photon density can be equally high as a COB with equal or better efficiency.

 

Also, there is a new hybrid approach in the game. The proprietary name is "Quantum Boards".  https://horticulture.../quantum-boards

 

These are basically a compromise from the ease of DIY of a COB, but photo distribution similar to a more traditional "blurple" panel approach.

attachicon.gifDSC_0515.jpg

 

 

Unfortunately these are out of stock right now, and apparently when they come back in stock the LEDs will be from a higher BIN... lower forward voltage with a higher output.... combining to provide a 10% efficiency boost (4% from lower voltage, 6% from better output). I am sure these will also sell out quickly and be out of stock again.

 

Unless I can get a hold of some of these QBs, the plan will be to design a more traditional panel. Even if I do get some QBs I would want to add additional 660, 730, and maybe even 840 diodes - because flowering plants love these.

 

Any who, just wanted to say hi to everyone and get something started. I bought some cheapo panels for veg lighting while I get rolling.

 

your plan with the QB is pretty neat. growmau5 has implemented something similar in his newest setup. 

 

new generation COB efficiency is probably a bit better than the QB on the system level. the circuit boards

that chips are mounted to seem to cause quite a bit of efficiency loss if the chips drop from 207 lumens

per watt nominal to 150 lumens per watt actual. i can keep my old gen bridgelux vero 18s under 40-45C

most of the time, and they make 15-16 watts of heat per chip. the new ones should run 10-12 watts of

heat per chip if drove similarly, and make 160-180 lumens per watt, depending on if i use vero 18 gen 7

SE or vero 29 gen 7 SE. also really digging the new push connectors that the vero gen 7 SE, no COB

mounts, no special molex connectors, just poke the wire in and done. 

 

remember that 50,000 hours isn't a projected lifespan, it's L70- meaning approximately what point is the

old COB emitting 70% of the lumens of when it was new. 

 

you did well by getting the 3500k, Cree 3500k is pretty similar to Bridgelux 4,000k, which has been my

favorite spectrum so far. 

 

IMO, go with three separate fixtures, that way you can adjust their height independently or add/remove

as needed.

 

one more thing, you might want to consider less light in terms of watts per square foot. your current situation

looks like it will be 37.5w per sq ft (600w/16 sq ft), which is a little higher than the recommended max of

35w/sq ft. i just ran 300w at approximately 52% efficiency in a 2x4, and it was less return for g/w than 200w

in the same space. also required more cooling, and i had to reconfigure my entire shared air exchange system

as a result, huge PITA. definitely would need at least a 400 cfm fan to exchange the heat from your project.


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#24 mate0x

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 08:28 PM

Obviously the advances in COB have swayed my original opinion :D

 

Yea I will be running a good size fan, and my basement is truly underground - so the temps are always low, even with the heat on. In the past I needed to run an oil filled space heater to keep the temps up with my old LED panel. I will be running 400cfm anyway, just for air exchange reasons. I like to do 3x per minute.

 

Thanks for the tip on the L70, I realized it was not a "point of death" but didn't know what the % cut off was. 

 

I will keep it modular - currently deciding wether or not to mount the drivers on the frame, or wire them up remotely. Added weight and heat, vs running multiple wires outside the tent. I don't have a great place to mount the drivers to. I might have to make a panel out of some of the extra aluminum I have and mount that to the wall. I plan on putting some eye hooks on the frames and use rope ratchets.

 

growmau5 was recommending 20 PAR watts per square foot, this light only achieves 19 in a true 4x4. The frame I built is only a 42"x42" an the direct footprint underneath from 16-24" should make this on point with that 20 PAR watts. Hopefully not too much light.

 

I will measure this unit at operating temperature with a kill-a-watt and a PAR meter, see how it's looking. I was really concerned  with even coverage - and would sacrifice some efficiency for that coverage.

 

Hows thangs in general man? I read you are moving to Co?


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#25 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 10:41 AM

things are going really well, and i'm extremely focused on the move right now.

just got confirmation from the land lord we will be renting the farm property i

applied for. it's got a 1,800 sq ft finished barn i'm going to convert for the edibles

business, should be producing at minimum a thousand pounds a week before

the middle of summer. hoping for 3-4k lbs a week by the end of fall. how have

things been for you man, it's been a long time!

 

i wouldn't be too worried about the frame only being 42". i use a 200w light that's

mounted to a 12"x24" heat sink, and it covers my 2x4 tent just fine. i still think you

might want to consider a lower wattage per square foot, i got better results from 

25w/sq ft (13 par watts) than 37.5w/sq ft (19.5w par watts). i had a hard time keeping

37.5w/sq ft cool, but mine is on the second story west wall of our home. supraSPL

recommended 15 PAR watts per square foot to me in our email exchanges, and i

would mostly agree after growing under them the last year. your basement situation 

might be a bit different, hell, maybe the 600w will negate the need for an oil heater.

you can always turn your drivers down, did you get the "A" model with on board dimming

adjustment or the one that requires an external dimmer ("B")?

 

i've been intentionally leaving units of measure in the simplest form- watts per sq ft -

to encourage other gardeners who are just learning this technology. you start

doing conversions and people's eyes glaze over. once you know what it means, 

you can take w/sq ft and efficiency to know the rest without much thought. 

 

if you want to take measurements at operating temperature, a multimeter is the 

only thing that will accurately give performance data on a single COB in a fixture.

 

your concern over coverage will dissipate (couldn't avoid at least one bad pun) after

you fire the fixture up. the 120 degree beam angle that a COB produces does a

great job of maintaining even coverage. once you have them 16"+ above the canopy

there won't be a dark spot in the tent. the CBCP (center beam candle power) right 

under the chips will still be intense (no way around that, that's how COBs are designed),

but it should be surprisingly consistent in all the overlap spots.


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#26 mate0x

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 02:27 PM

The drivers have the leads for the dimming circuit, so I can simply wire up a potentiometer or a PWM module. I like that better than the on board screw based pots.

 

I will be checking each COB with my multi-meter also. I have temp probes for it too.

 

Yea, talking about PPFD, YPF, and quantum yields - is just over the top for a casual thread :)

 

Things are good! We are expecting a baby in early May :D :D  I am pretty heavily into building quadcopters, so glad the weather is turning around. Just working, flying, and getting ready for the baby. Not much else to report, boring adult stuff. haha.


Edited by mate0x, 30 March 2017 - 02:29 PM.

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#27 Heirloom

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 03:46 PM

I can't reply except to say I am starting to learn and laugh because I wondered if you can increase
or decrease the light. I know a PWM is a pulse width modulator. Electronic motor speed controllers,
I got a few I use for ventilation control.

Can I use a PMW on a commercial LED panel?

edit : I will try on a cheap panel I got.

How deep is the light penetration on these cobs?

One last question what does a par meter cost and can anyone recommend one?

Edited by Heirloom Spores, 30 March 2017 - 03:48 PM.


#28 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 10:26 AM

The drivers have the leads for the dimming circuit, so I can simply wire up a potentiometer or a PWM module. I like that better than the on board screw based pots.

 

I will be checking each COB with my multi-meter also. I have temp probes for it too.

 

Yea, talking about PPFD, YPF, and quantum yields - is just over the top for a casual thread :)

 

Things are good! We are expecting a baby in early May :D :D  I am pretty heavily into building quadcopters, so glad the weather is turning around. Just working, flying, and getting ready for the baby. Not much else to report, boring adult stuff. haha.

 

since you're also about learning the more fancy derivations (fuck yeah, someone to

nerd with, lol), you can measure the forward voltage, then voltage droop, and use ΔV

to determine temperature. 

 

fancy.jpg

 

the external dimming is definitely a better option if you plan to run at that light intensity, 

you're going to need to use it or wear some serious sunglasses when you water. i had

a tent at 37.5 and i would get a sick feeling in my stomach and headaches if i spent more

than a couple minutes with the tent open.  

 

quadcopters eh? that's really cool. seen a lot of pictures taken from them here recently, 

the technology is definitely finding a good niche. 

 

congrats on the kid! better get rested up now, because that's all over soon! 

 

I can't reply except to say I am starting to learn and laugh because I wondered if you can increase
or decrease the light. I know a PWM is a pulse width modulator. Electronic motor speed controllers,
I got a few I use for ventilation control.

Can I use a PMW on a commercial LED panel?

edit : I will try on a cheap panel I got.

How deep is the light penetration on these cobs?

One last question what does a par meter cost and can anyone recommend one?

 

i've got solid buds 24" down the plant with low light density, with what mate's gonna run

he's probably gonna get 30+".  i had to adjust my expectation of what causes light penetration,

once i got a multi-array COB fixture. i was really impressed with non-point source light. 

 

read this before dimming

http://luxreview.com...u-dim-led-lamps

 

a good par meter will cost you $150-350, hydrofarm makes one in the $150 range. 

http://growershouse....umen-par-meters

 

i like grower's house because of their product reviews, definitely recommend checking 

some of these new tech comparisons out. 

http://growershouse.com/blog


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#29 mate0x

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 05:37 PM

Test fitting eye bolts and power lead. Decided to keep the drivers outside of the tent.

 

Also, some quads.

 

20170401_025200.jpg 20170401_032324.jpg

20170401_032358.jpg

20170402_113910.jpg


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#30 Heirloom

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 01:54 PM

Thanks kcmox , I hope to learn might take me a while to understand all this.

Might take me some time till I am confident enough to try and build my own
for fun and to grow.

I have come to the conclusion that you guys are building better lights than can be bought .

I do believe cobs are going to be the future of lighting.

I love to see the grows they are awesome

#31 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 02:58 PM

nice lookin' copters mate. i like how you're going to wire your fixtures with an extra 

disconnect. should make it easy to move them around while keeping your driver

stationary. simplifies veg if you're planning on using the same tent, just disconnect

one of the fixtures and leave it hanging. the cord has been relieved of the strain 

and should stay safe in the event of a tent collapse or something else catastrophic. 

 

here's another manufacturer that uses LM561C chips from the S5 flux bin-

 

https://www.photonfantomdesigns.com/

 

there's not much to learn for building with the new bridgelux chips. they've got poke-in

connectors, so no soldering or clips. there are a few heatsink manufacturers that list sinks

by the wattage, so just get a sink that matches your wattage. add the forward voltage (Vf)

if you wire them in series, add current if you wire them in parallel (not recommended). the

quantum boards are the least to learn, just make sure the voltage is sufficient to drive the

board and push the wires into the on-board connectors. 


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#32 mate0x

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 01:14 AM

Good read:  http://agi32.com/blo...photosynthesis/


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#33 mate0x

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 01:42 AM

http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html

 

600x XP-G3 will run at .3a each will provide the same lumen output as 12x CXB3590. Yes, I know - plants don't care about lumens. The conversion factor is the same or similar for Cree color spectrum. So if you want to calculate YPF and PPFD - go nuts.

 

You end up saving 100 watts. Cost more to build though, and more complicated unless you are good with reflowing a lot of components. The diodes themselves would be an additional 150 bucks. The cost killer are the drivers. You would likely want to run parallel circuits of clusters in series. Then killer #2 is building the damn thing.

 

CD and S5 bins evaluated @ 45C

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 2.40.36 AM.png

 

Columns for reference

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 2.44.45 AM.png

 

CXB3590 specs:

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 2.38.21 AM.png

 

XP-G3 Specs

Screen Shot 2017-04-04 at 2.38.13 AM.png

 

 

It would be cool to build a huge XP-G3 panel with multiple color temps - maybe mix in some monos too. They would also be a nice option for supplementing a COB based build, if a typical COB spacing doesn't make sense for your grow configuration.

 

That light footprint would be even as fuck though... man.


Edited by mate0x, 04 April 2017 - 01:58 AM.


#34 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 08:40 AM

I think those small wattage diodes might kill it if used in a vert style grow. 

 

Consider the legend of Achilles, and how water covers every millimeter of

our skin if we're submerged. Now think about small diodes emitting light from 

multiple angles around the plant, pretty similar to submersion in water, but with

light.

 

I talked to the photon fantom guy yesterday and got 16 of his panels and 4x

HLG-240H-C1750A to drive them. Should be about 1,100 watts of LM561C

goodness.  :biggrin:

 

You're right, those LEDs have to be drove in parallel clusters with the same Vf.

Same concept they're using on the quantum and fantom boards. 



#35 mate0x

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 02:50 PM

Are those the "sun" panels?



#36 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:40 AM

yup, the sunboard 240. they came today, 2nd day after i ordered them. 

 

i can't imagine trying to put one of these together by hand. these SMDs 

are fucking tiny and i've got a hand tremor problem.  

 

20170405_101836.jpg

 

20170405_101841.jpg


Edited by kcmoxtractor, 05 April 2017 - 09:41 AM.

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#37 mate0x

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 06:35 PM

I am interested to hear your plan. That should cover a 4x8 space fairly well right?



#38 kcmoxtractor

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 07:20 AM

how are your fixtures coming along?

 

 

I am interested to hear your plan. That should cover a 4x8 space fairly well right?

 

those four drivers should draw about 1100w total at the wall, so i would do

a 5x10 tent @65% efficiency if i were using them horizontally. i'm gonna be

going all manner of crazy on these fixtures. trying to do a vertical tree grow

and hit 2.5 lbs from an indoor plant (because why the hell not!?). i have

5x 315w that i'm going to hang vertical bare bulb, then use these panels 

as surround lighting. it's the heath robinson style of tree growing, just going to

attempt it with LED. goal is to see if i can break 2g/ watt, heath hit 2.25 with his

method and 600w HPS. i've gotten pretty good at DTW coco, i honestly think

it's easier to manage than a soil grow at super high intensity, dry nutes (jack's

brand) are the bee's knees. 

 

i attached some pictures to show vertical bare bulb style plants. 

Attached Thumbnails

  • user279046_pic926174_1345326581.jpg
  • user279046_pic962338_1351834372.jpg
  • ppk3.jpg
  • ppk2.jpg
  • heath.JPG
  • heath2.jpg

Edited by kcmoxtractor, 07 April 2017 - 07:20 AM.

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#39 mate0x

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 02:46 PM

Seedlings are going painfully slow, so I am no rush to finish the panels. I just need to add cross supports and eye bolts to the other 2, then wire everything up.

 

3D lighting will be sweet man, "Why the hell not" is right!


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#40 morvis

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Posted 15 November 2017 - 05:30 PM

Any updates on this?  Been waiting to see how it came out =)






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