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Ayahuasca advise


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#1 ethnobotanist420

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 02:05 PM

So here's the story...

I have a friend who some of you may know has been struggling with his addictions lately... he has asked me to help him prepare ayahuasca so he and 2 other people can experience this medicine and all the healing it has to offer.

I have spoken with all of them and they have all done their research... I'm very happy to see that first and foremost! They also know they will need a sitter which is something else I like to hear... basically they want me to help them make the brew and sit with them while that go on their voyage.

Here are my questions...

First and foremost I have never taken ayahuasca myself... I understand the pharmacology well, I believe I am a good trip sitter and I know I could make the brew with some guidance... do you think this is something I should consider helping with? They are all very confident that I can help them and I feel confident that I can but I would like to hear your opinions....

The second question I have, assuming you think I should help these people, is about dosage and composition of the brew. My tentative plan is to use what I believe to be a traditional brew consisting of Cappi and Chacruna... I have read so many variations on the ratio of vine to leaf tho and I'm curious to hear your input.... I'm looking to make a 3 dose brew and they all want it to be strong.... they said "they want a spiritual journey not a fun trip" If anyone knows of a reputable vendor for these herbs please PM me as well... I want the brew to be of good quality if we end up going through with this.

Any advice or direction you can offer regarding this topic would be much appreciated!
-Ethno
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#2 ethnobotanist420

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:54 PM

Bump...

#3 pharmer

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:49 PM

Go for 9 grams of dried Chacruna per person.  There would be no harm in preparing double that dose and having it handy in case you have weak leaf. If you don't use it this time it will freeze for the next time.

 

The same would apply for the vine. I don't remember the suggested dry weight of vine but you can find that here or at Erowid.

 

My guess is there would be no significant difference in sitting for an aya ceremony than any other. Because of the sedating nature of the vine the trippers would be less likely to be energetic and doing dumb shit like running out into traffic in pursuit of the pretty unicorn.

 

Three at once might be a lot to handle if they are the kind to get sick and vomit for hours or if it turns out that all three have some serious internal issues that manifest during their trips. IME one person having troubles is plenty to handle. Three at once would be a challenge.  You know these folks so factor accordingly.

 

And bless you for your admirable desire to help troubled souls with this sacrament. Let's hope they benefit in a big way.


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#4 scott_1971_h

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 07:03 PM

I would agree that 3 having 'Issues' at once would be a lot of shit to handle by yourself, but its doubtful all three will have issues at the same time.

Have they used together? In that case that could add another layer of healing but it could add another layer of issues... Could be just what the doctor ordered, but could turn bad. Is there anyone you could have 'on call' in case they ... err ... have a bad day? The probability of all 3 turning all at once is there, but pretty low.

If they have managed to get any clean time up thats good but from what you have mentioned it doesnt sound like they would have.

Good luck to you and them, either way. 


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#5 ethnobotanist420

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 06:01 PM

Thank you both for your advise!

@Pharmer,
Are you suggesting a 1:1 ratio of vine to leaf roughly? That does seem to be the recommendation (give or take a small amount) that I have seen posted in many places online... some others say more vine than leaf...

Also is 9 grams considered a strong dose of chacruna? I have read WIDELY varying recommendations online with most saying at least 50 grams and some up to 150 grams.., I know the potency of chacruna can vary quite widely but the most common thing I'm seeing is people suggesting about 50 grams. They have advised me they would rather have an overly powerful experience than a mild one... I know that they want to experience the full benefits of this medicine but I'm so confused with conflicting reports on dosing... any advice?

@Scott,
I should also have mentioned my girlfriend will be with me helping to make sure everything goes smoothly for these three men... so I think that immediately makes it a bit of a better situation. I will also be looking into having someone "on call" in case more help is needed. I think that is a great idea.

They have not used together either... they met through seeking sobriety and are friends who help each other stay away from their addictions. They seem to be very close and on the same page. As for sober time... 2 of the men have around 10 years sober and one of them recently relapsed and has about a week and counting.

I will not be a part of this if the one man cannot abstain for at least a week before the dose... I won't be responsible for giving an MAOI to someone with dangerous drugs in their system... no good could come of it IMHO. I agree with you about sober time before the dose being important and they are all in understanding and agreement that this is important as well... there is a group consensus that there are a few things that could stop/delay the use of this medicine for the sake of safety.

I'm very glad to see them taking this so seriously... it eases my mind about helping them with this...

Again thank you both very much,
-Ethno
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#6 pharmer

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:19 PM

You could try it this way

 

Buy 150 grams times 4 participants ( you'll want your turn later  :)   )   of chacruna

 

Make a tea of the entire 600 grams

 

Dose in increments, the first being not larger than the tea of  9 grams of dried leaf

 

Wait 30 minutes and assess the height of their flight

 

Re-dose if you believe they have not achieved orbit

 

But go slowly and carefully with a drug and a batch of material you do not know and know well.

 

Freeze anything you don't use. It freezes just fine without losing strength.

--------------------

 

This same approach would apply to brewing, making tea, and dosing with the vine

 

Again, go to Erowid and see what they say about dosing with Caapi. IIRC you want 50 grams dried vine per dose. BUT do your own research over there. This should be routine for any of us. Check first with trusted people here or the data base there.

 

Many experienced aya people recommend doing a couple journeys on caapi alone to get to know its personality or traits. I've done this and recommend it. Many people don't ever get to know caapi on its own and that's unfortunate.

 

___________

 

chacruna is said to be the kindest and gentlest of the DMT providing plants for aya mixtures. I still don't want TOO much of the kindest and gentlest, especially on my first trip. So titrate up from a safe starting point. There's no rush to get to the top and a gentle ratcheting up ain't the worst way to get to know the landscape.


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#7 ethnobotanist420

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 09:59 PM

A+ advice Pharmer! Thank you so much :)

I was thinking of brewing a bigger batch and using multiple doses to reach the right level but I was worried it might not be very effective after the first dose... like some drugs build an almost instant tolerance, ya know?

It's great to read and research online, which I have been doing, but it's so nice to speak in real time with someone who has first hand experience! :) some people post a lot of ego inflating BS online, like "naw Man U gotta use AT LEAST x grams per person" or "I took blah blah blah get on my level" lol

I think I will titrate the dose like you advised starting a 9 dry grams of chacruna... another plus to that is some might need more or less than others to get to the same level... so that would be perfect.

Thank you again for the advice, Pharmer, it hasn't fallen on deaf ears!
-Ethno

PS: do you think brewing the vine and leaf separately is a good idea?
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#8 pharmer

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:51 AM

The vine needs some time to inhibit the MAO's in your gut, it doesn't happen instantly upon drinking the tea.

 

I brew separately and drink the vine tea first. You'll know if the vine is taking effect if you feel sedated and slightly dizzy. IME 30 minutes is going to be enough time. When you know the inhibition has happened start drinking the fractions of chacruna tea.

 

This procedure may be splitting hairs but it guarantees you don't lose thirty minutes of trip time waiting for the inhibition to take place. It also lets you know inhibition HAS taken place and drinking the leaf tea will be effective. If for some reason inhibition does not happen you'd get a much diminished effect from your pricey leaf. No MAO Inhibition = No trip  with this combination of plants.


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#9 ethnobotanist420

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 09:48 PM

That is great advice and I appreciate it very much!

I had a feeling that would be the best way to go about it as well... it is the vine that generally causes the purge correct? Have you ever had an occasion where you drank the vine... became ill... and could not continue drinking the other half of the brew?

#10 pharmer

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 07:34 AM

nope

 

don't give another thought to a purge other than keeping a garbage can handy. you probably should mention it to the participants as a possibility but not as a negative thing. nobody looks forward to being sick and you don't want to front load their expectations with unpleasant ideas

 

it's going to happen or it wont and if it does it's just natures way of telling you it's time for the trip to start in earnest

 

IME it's the vine that gives the vertigo, nausea, and sets the scene for deep thoughts. The  leaf that adds the fun stuff or the challenging moments.

 

it's all good.

 

trust me on this, you can't prepare yourself for this. you can only prepare the materials


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#11 Final

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:44 AM

during the reduction cook .  once its at about a boil, throw in a few egg whites . These help absorb Tannins, which will make you much less sick and can reduce the chance of vomiting.


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#12 pharmer

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:59 AM

Yes ^^^^^

 

to do it right you let your extracts cool to room temperature, then add the egg whites, then gradually raise the temp until the egg whites harden. once hardened nothing more will be extracted.

 

this tek is good at grabbing up waxes and tannins from the leaf.

 

it's hard to tell if you've gotten everything with the first go-round because the egg whites don't show any significant color change or other indicator to suggest that stuff HAS been absorbed. so I do it a second time just for thoroughness' sake.

 

you will notice a before and after difference in the clarity of the tea.

 

you can also put your tea in the refrigerator for a couple days after brewing and reducing it. the solids drop to the bottom and form a puck. the longer you leave it in the fridge the harder the puck gets in the bottom and the easier it is to decant away from the solids. an easier and more effective way to separate cold solids from cold liquids is to siphon it off - my go-to for finishing cactus or any other teas of psych plants.


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#13 Final

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:40 PM

Yes ^^^^^

 

to do it right you let your extracts cool to room temperature, then add the egg whites, then gradually raise the temp until the egg whites harden. once hardened nothing more will be extracted.

 

this tek is good at grabbing up waxes and tannins from the leaf.

 

it's hard to tell if you've gotten everything with the first go-round because the egg whites don't show any significant color change or other indicator to suggest that stuff HAS been absorbed. so I do it a second time just for thoroughness' sake.

 

you will notice a before and after difference in the clarity of the tea.

 

you can also put your tea in the refrigerator for a couple days after brewing and reducing it. the solids drop to the bottom and form a puck. the longer you leave it in the fridge the harder the puck gets in the bottom and the easier it is to decant away from the solids. an easier and more effective way to separate cold solids from cold liquids is to siphon it off - my go-to for finishing cactus or any other teas of psych plants.

 

 

either way , just make sure the tea temp gets to at least 165F and the eggs become fully cooked . Eggs may contain Salmonella .


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#14 riseabovethought

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:43 PM

Here's a coupla good threads about Aya.. 

https://mycotopia.ne...a/?hl=ayahuasca

https://mycotopia.ne...a/?hl=ayahuasca

https://www.erowid.o..._journal3.shtml

https://mycotopia.ne...s/?hl=ayahuasca


Edited by riseabovethought, 20 March 2017 - 03:48 PM.

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#15 scott_1971_h

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:26 AM

I will not be a part of this if the one man cannot abstain for at least a week before the dose... I won't be responsible for giving an MAOI to someone with dangerous drugs in their system... no good could come of it IMHO. I agree with you about sober time before the dose being important and they are all in understanding and agreement that this is important as well... there is a group consensus that there are a few things that could stop/delay the use of this medicine for the sake of safety.

I am not sure if MAOIs interact with 'natural' opiates, but pethidine has a spectacular interaction.

Umm. what was their DOC? 

But yeah, its better to be safe than sorry...

Do they have ambulance cover? 


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#16 ethnobotanist420

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:00 PM

Thank you all for the tips and advise! I feel a lot better about this after hearing your thoughts :)

@Scott

2 of their DOC's where alcohol but the 1 I'm really concerned about was a user of crack... I'm not a doctor but I don't think crack cocaine would mix well with an MAOI lol

As for ambulance coverage... I'm hoeing we do not need to go there or even come close to thinking about going there but if it happens to be necessary all will be well. Money is nothing compared to a life.

#17 scott_1971_h

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 06:05 PM

BTW, keep us posted whatever happens.

(Unless you dont want to lol)



#18 scott_1971_h

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 08:16 AM

Thank you all for the tips and advise! I feel a lot better about this after hearing your thoughts :)

@Scott

2 of their DOC's where alcohol but the 1 I'm really concerned about was a user of crack... I'm not a doctor but I don't think crack cocaine would mix well with an MAOI lol

The half life of coke is astonishingly brief. I speak from experience: It never lasts long enough!






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