Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Finding 'heirloom' or true-to-type seeds


  • Please log in to reply
10 replies to this topic

#1 PirateFarmer

PirateFarmer

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 579 posts

Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:31 PM

Lets talk about this.

 

Anyone else that saves seeds knows what I'm talking about - f1 hybrids don't produce true-to-type seeds, (whether tomato, corn or mj), leaving us to have to return to the seed-seller if we want to grow consistant crops. Of course, one could develop the strain further out, themselves, but it takes several generations (AT LEAST to the f3 level) to do so.

 

Has anyone done so? I've been growing my Northern Lights out for 3 years/generations, and still get a few rogues, but NL has been around for many years, and has been used for the creation of many, many other strains - definitely a 'heirloom'-type seed. What about Sativas strains? Anyone know of any that fit this criteria? Or Indica. Of course, the 'holy grail', so to speak, would be to find one or two of each (S or I) of the newer, high-THC potency ones.

 

It's not just a matter of going to the usual seed companies (when Mandala is back at it, I intend to ask them about their 'landrace' types they have)...their profit increases (again, no matter what type of garden/mj plant) by having you constantly return to them for seeds...which is an inducement for them to develop only the f1 hybrids. If you know of a company (or more than one) that grows stabilized seeds, let us know?

 

I'd love to have this turn into a list of companies and seed strains useful for us that seed save.

 

Of course, we could just clone them, but that's not my focus, here - it has its own limitations...such as, what if you move, or, for some other reason, need to suspend production (or a catastrophic crop failure)? Or want to share the strain w/ a friend that's across the country from you? Or simply only grow outdoors? Personally, one of THE main reasons I save seed, is I just don't want to be dependant upon outside sources. Better food security, and better secrecy for the mj crop.

 

Plus, after 3 outdoor seasons, my Northern Lights is really starting to adapt to my harsh environment. Which I, quite simply, LOVE! I'm really into self-sufficiency, and I get a real kick when I go out, choose my 'babies' for breeding, and see the results of my choices the next year. Vindication of my ability (or lack therof) to pick the best for breeding. I want to do this w/ a Sativa, now.

 

So, if you're interested, please jump on in here and share your thoughts.


  • Juthro and catattack like this

#2 JanSteen

JanSteen

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 116 posts

Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:48 AM

My opinion: Heirlooms are wildtypes that come from the wild, not really from sativa+indica hybrids like Northern lights. Semantics, I know. But NL has been crossed, fiddled with, reversed, inbred, outbred, nobody is sure anymore if the NL's they have, are the true ones. Let alone it being a heirloom. Does that really matter? If you care, it does. If you have a wonderful strain with all the characteristics you like, then I'd say: why not make it your heirloom? Since every generation has at least some genetic mixing/variation/mutations, and even wildtypes are not always stable. If a wild type can be a heirloom, why couldn't a domesticated plant be one too?
Man, I'm creating my own internal discussions here ;-) I have no actual answer. Just an opinion.

I know a few dudes who travel europe and asia to find their own wildtype heirlooms, and start breeding with them. They found wild autoflowers in the Czech republic, indica's from vietnam and india, hybrids from morrocco and sativa hybrids from mexico.
Stable generations as far as I know occur at F6, sometimes even F8.

I'm doing a few projects of my own, to stabilize large autoflowers with a late flowering gene. Next to that I'm hybridizing my own strains with a very diverse gene pool to find the ultimate outdoor strain for the Netherlands.
The past 6 to 7 years it took, and my guess is that it will keep me busy for another 5 years.

Seed stores in my country are popping up like mushrooms after a rainy day. So there's just a few trustworthy sources to go to. The decision to screw that, and go DIY was one of the best in my life. I collected nearly 50 different strains and started messing around with them back in 2009. My freezer is nearly overflowing with seeds, and I love that idea. I can hand out a hand full to a friend in need whenever I want, and I have some nice collaborations with fellow growers that don't cost me a single dime except for postage stamps.

As for sativa strains that go way back, I'd suggest the ones Sensi sells. They have been around since the 90's and don't seem to have changed their genetics since. I own some of their NL#5 x Haze, which I keep for whenever I want to create a good indoor strain. The NL#5 is one from the first few selection pools, at least, that's what the legends say. Sensi is insanely expensive though.. Especially when it comes to non-fem seeds.
Most strains originating from Durban seem to be pretty true sativa, but here too there's been a lot of mixing and meddling. I did find that some Durban Poison still taste and smell the same as 13 years ago (back then it was sold as being Power Plant, but that strain doesn't exist anymore; the genetics have been screwed up over generations, nowadays it's an indica instead of a 70-90% sativa and it looks and tastes like an indica).
Dr. Grinspoon is as true sativa as it gets as far as I know. I don't think it's even meant to be grown for the crop, but only for it's genetic profile. I've never seen anyone harvest anything worth smoking, but I did see people use it to create some awesome hybrids with high sativa percentages.

I'm always interested in discussions about what it means to make your own seeds. So here's my 2 cents.

As for seedsaver-friendly stores, I have no sources to give other than sensi. There are a few breeders out there that accommodate the need for regular stable strains, but they do it mainly for themselves or medical patients only. Aside from that, they're located in Europe. I don't know if they ship across the globe.
  • PirateFarmer likes this

#3 Heirloom Spores

Heirloom Spores

    I practice

  • OG VIP
  • 3,130 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:00 PM

PirateFarmer great subject. I have read that Skunk#1, Afghani#1 and Original Haze are true breeding, but best used for crossing. They might be found from Seedsman.

Another source would be growers from Kentucky to the west coast, some growers make their own seeds.
They don't release these to others for the most part.

The problem with buying seeds is they are F1 but also they use 1:1 breeding , 1 female to 1 male.
This prevents these from being used to create a healthy population.

Think of 2 people on Mars trying to save the human race, won't work. More "Founders" are needed.
Lokk into founding populations of outbreeders/ out crosser's like corn, dogs humans...ect.

Cannabis is very sensitive to inbreeding depression , more so than corn/maize. I think equal to humans,
or more.

to get an idea heirloom corn varieties require 200 - 400 plants to interbreed , in order to produce seeds for the next crop.This is if you want to grow for a lifetime and pas them on to other growers to produce for hundreds of years.

I would suggest reading Seed To Seed by S. Ashworth
Breed Your Own Vegetables by Carol Deppe,
Breeding Field Crops by Poehlman and Sleper and
Marijuana Botany by R.C Clarke.

http://www.pothoo.co...uana Botany.pdf


Don't be discouraged, with a number of seeds ( founders) you can make a population and go from there.
You can create a "composite or synthetic population" often used in farming. they also use 3way and 4 way crosses for single crops.


One thing I learned is that if you got a good plant save it through cloning, many plants are grown from clones including fruit trees through grafting.

I will get back here when I feel better, I am kind of sick and just posted this to keep this going.

I hope this makes sense, this is a real complicated subject.
  • Hash_Man and PirateFarmer like this

#4 Dipole

Dipole

    Legalize Cannabis

  • OG VIP
  • 3,047 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:51 PM

My half ass'ed attempt at breeding a few years back resulted in a crappy breed.  I concluded the only way a breeding program can work with cannabis is you need to deal with an awful lot of plants.  I forget who said it, but it is better to spend your time with well bred plants.


  • Heirloom Spores likes this

#5 Heirloom Spores

Heirloom Spores

    I practice

  • OG VIP
  • 3,130 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

I'm charging my camera battery or I would show a pic of a page on Quantitative Inheritance
in plant breeding from breeding field crops.

An F3 will be stable for traits passed by only one gene., cannabis is more complicated.
I don't buy into the F8 stable set either.

Genes are not always exchanged as simple as 1 gene but often in blocks, this is called
Quantitative Inheritance.
genes very close to each other are transferred in groups, gene linkage, bottlenecks...ect

An interesting subject to be explored is "transgressive segregation" and how it can create a
super plant, to be preserved by cloning.

Populations will always need selection to keep true to the breed , see dog breeding.

Plant numbers and conscious selection are required to keep a heirloom variety forever.
  • PirateFarmer likes this

#6 Hash_Man

Hash_Man

    Cranky Old Weed Codger

  • OG VIP
  • 2,118 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:32 PM

@Piratefarmer are you familiar with
Mandala seeds:http://www.mandalaseeds.com

Not only are they known for some top shelf strains like Satori from personally scouted landrace stock, Mandala Seeds was founded in 2004 by Mike and Jasmin and together we share more than 40 years of experience in cannabis cultivation, breeding, and collecting heirloom strains. Jasmin is a biologist who has worked professionally in horticulture and agriculture.

Edited by Hash_Man, 19 March 2017 - 05:56 PM.

  • PirateFarmer and Heirloom Spores like this

#7 Heirloom Spores

Heirloom Spores

    I practice

  • OG VIP
  • 3,130 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:50 PM

The problem finding open pollenated seed varieties that can be grown forever, year after year
are the legal issues.

I would love to have a coffee cup of hash farm seeds from Lebanon or another hash producing
Country. They probably would not be suitable for indoor grows. To really use them I would need to grow outdoors , like by the acre.

Traveling to cannabis growing regions to obtain seeds is dangerous.

I read books on growing /breeding but I have found that I am better off cloning.

Cannabis is an out crosser, plants that are inbreeders are easy to maintain, like peas ,beans..ect
Outcrossers require a large number of plants , inbreeders require a few seeds to carry on forever.

This may sound crazy but think of your cannabis population as people and breed from there.


I am quite buzzed
  • Hash_Man and PirateFarmer like this

#8 PirateFarmer

PirateFarmer

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 579 posts

Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:49 PM

Great input from everybody! I think I should have used the more accurate term of 'open-pollinated', for this discussion, but I wanted to also include the idea of using 'old' strains. I, myself, don't know exactly when to consider a strain as stabilized - so I said 'at least' f3. As has been mentioned, mj can be much more complicated than breeding, say corn - but tomatoes have new and heirloom open-pollinated strains (I grow 3 different Brandywines for market). HS - I have read the first three books - am trying to buy them this Spring. H-M - I AM familiar w/ Mandala - as I mentioned in my original post...but their (yours?) website shows them as closed, currently. I specifically want to ask them about Satori...and am deeply bummed that I missed my chance, evidently, to ever try Speed Queen. I want to know if their strains are still landraces or descended from such, and which, if any/all are now true-to-type stabilized open-pollinated. I don't really have the room or time or inclination to try to breed my own new strain (and probably not the ability, truth be told). I've bought several different Brandywine strains, settled on the ones from Baker Creek Seeds, and then selected for production features that best fit my micro-climate and growth techniques and saved the seeds.

THAT is what I'm really aiming for: finding specific strains (and their seedbanks to buy from), taking in several different ones with the intention to select one of each type (indica/sativa or cross of) and methinks the conversation here is quite exciting. As I said, Mandala seems promising (I have tried a couple of their strains, before). Any others known out there? HS - your point is well made - and is exactly one of the main reasons I save seeds, and want to do w/ mj seeds: the more of us out here in the hinterlands are each maintaining a strain (or two) of mj, the better it is for the preservation of strains we all know and love. 90+% of our food seeds grown at the beginning of the last century are now gone forever. I remember the great excitement of even the possibility that the rumors were true, that Humboldt County Green had been found (or possibly re-invented). Over here, the new administration is mumbling about taking back the freedoms we've won about states legalizing mj for medical and/or recreational use. And stepping up efforts to stop the import of the seeds. Whether they do so, or not, I want to be prepared...yet ANOTHER reason, for me, to save mj seeds.

 

BTW: Heirloom Spores - I hope you are feeling better, by now...and if not, that you soon be.


Edited by PirateFarmer, 21 March 2017 - 01:53 PM.

  • Heirloom Spores likes this

#9 Heirloom Spores

Heirloom Spores

    I practice

  • OG VIP
  • 3,130 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:36 PM

A little bit on open pollenated synthetic populations. You can do this with clones and seeds, if you got the area. I flower out 3 plants at a time so I rely on clones.

http://breedingandpl...-cultivars.html

1. Synthetic cultivar versus germless composites




There are two basic types of open-pollinated populations of crops – those produced by population improvement, and synthetics. As previously discussed, population improvement methods can be categorized into two – those that depend on purely phenotypic selection and those that involve selection with progeny testing. A synthetic cultivar may be defined as an advanced generation of crossfertilized seed

mixture of parents that may be strains, clones, or hybrids. The parents are selected based on GCA. The primary distinction between these basic types of populations mentioned in this section is that population improvement cultivars can be propagated indefinitely as such. However, a synthetic cultivar is propagated for only a limited number of generations and then must be reconstituted from the parental stock. A synthetic population differs from a natural population by consisting of breeder-selected parental stocks. Germplasm composites is a broad term used to refer to the mixing together of breeding materials on the basis of some agronomic trait, followed by random mating. There are many ways to put a composite together. Germplasm composites are by nature genetically broad based and very complex. They can be

used as for commercial cultivation over a broad range of agroecological environments. However, they can also be used as reservoirs of useful genes for use in breeding programs.




2 Desirable features of a synthetic cultivar




K.J. Frey summarized three major desirable features of synthetic cultivars as:

Yield reduction in advanced generations is less than with a single or double cross. For example,in maize an estimated 15–30% reduction occurs between F1 and F2, as compared to only a reduction of 5–15% from syn-1 to syn-2. This slow rate of reduction in yield makes it unnecessary for producers to obtain new seed of the cultivar for planting in each season.

A synthetic cultivar may become better adapted to the local production environment over time, as it is produced in successive generations in the region.

A synthetic cultivar is genetically heterogeneous, a population structure that makes it perform stably over changing environmental conditions. Further, because of this heterogeneity, both natural and artificial selection can modify the genotypic structure of synthetic cultivars. That is, a breeder may achieve gain in performance by practicing selection in syn-2 and subsequent generations.




3 Application





The synthetic method of breeding is suitable for improving cross-fertilized crops. It is widely used to breed forage species. Successful synthetic cultivars have been bred for corn, sugar beets, and other species. The suitability of forage species for this method of breeding stems from several biological factors. Forages have perfect flowers, making it difficult to produce hybrid seed for commercial use. The use of male sterility may facilitate controlled cross-pollination, which is difficult to achieve in most forage species. To test individual plants for use in producing the commercial seed, it is essential to obtain sufficient seed from these plants. The amount of seed obtained from single plants of these species is often inadequate for a progeny test. Furthermore, forage species often exhibit self-incompatibility, a condition that inhibits the production of selfed seed. Synthetic cultivars are also used as gene pools in breeding progeny. Synthetic cultivars are advantageous in agricultural production systems where farmers routinely save seed for planting. One of the well-known and widely used synthetic is the Iowa stiff-stalk synthetic of maize


On composite population
https://en.wikipedia...mposite_variety

A composite variety is a plant population in which at least 70% of its progeny result from the crossing of the parent lines.

Composite variety is a variety developed by mixing the seeds of various phenotypically outstanding lines possessing similarities for various characteristics like height, seed size, seed color, maturity etc. Crossing among the selected is encouraged. Features of Composite Variety Heterogeneous Relevant to cross pollinated species only Can be developed from open pollinated variety any other heterozygous variety Farmer can use his own saved seed for 3 to 4 years

Edited by Heirloom Spores, 21 March 2017 - 05:05 PM.


#10 Hash_Man

Hash_Man

    Cranky Old Weed Codger

  • OG VIP
  • 2,118 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:18 PM

Yea Mandela (anyway yrs ago) runs out of seeds, I use to have to wait Nov-Dec

Ive Emailed him/them off season and he's returned emails, lots places carry Mandela seeds . .

I must have missed that Heirloom wasn't feeling well . . . Good vibes bro

#11 Heirloom Spores

Heirloom Spores

    I practice

  • OG VIP
  • 3,130 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:57 PM

Mandala gives a list of vendors on their site, prices are good.
  • Hash_Man likes this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!