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Finding 'heirloom' or true-to-type seeds


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#1 PirateFarmer

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 02:31 PM

Lets talk about this.

 

Anyone else that saves seeds knows what I'm talking about - f1 hybrids don't produce true-to-type seeds, (whether tomato, corn or mj), leaving us to have to return to the seed-seller if we want to grow consistant crops. Of course, one could develop the strain further out, themselves, but it takes several generations (AT LEAST to the f3 level) to do so.

 

Has anyone done so? I've been growing my Northern Lights out for 3 years/generations, and still get a few rogues, but NL has been around for many years, and has been used for the creation of many, many other strains - definitely a 'heirloom'-type seed. What about Sativas strains? Anyone know of any that fit this criteria? Or Indica. Of course, the 'holy grail', so to speak, would be to find one or two of each (S or I) of the newer, high-THC potency ones.

 

It's not just a matter of going to the usual seed companies (when Mandala is back at it, I intend to ask them about their 'landrace' types they have)...their profit increases (again, no matter what type of garden/mj plant) by having you constantly return to them for seeds...which is an inducement for them to develop only the f1 hybrids. If you know of a company (or more than one) that grows stabilized seeds, let us know?

 

I'd love to have this turn into a list of companies and seed strains useful for us that seed save.

 

Of course, we could just clone them, but that's not my focus, here - it has its own limitations...such as, what if you move, or, for some other reason, need to suspend production (or a catastrophic crop failure)? Or want to share the strain w/ a friend that's across the country from you? Or simply only grow outdoors? Personally, one of THE main reasons I save seed, is I just don't want to be dependant upon outside sources. Better food security, and better secrecy for the mj crop.

 

Plus, after 3 outdoor seasons, my Northern Lights is really starting to adapt to my harsh environment. Which I, quite simply, LOVE! I'm really into self-sufficiency, and I get a real kick when I go out, choose my 'babies' for breeding, and see the results of my choices the next year. Vindication of my ability (or lack therof) to pick the best for breeding. I want to do this w/ a Sativa, now.

 

So, if you're interested, please jump on in here and share your thoughts.


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#2 JanSteen

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:48 AM

My opinion: Heirlooms are wildtypes that come from the wild, not really from sativa+indica hybrids like Northern lights. Semantics, I know. But NL has been crossed, fiddled with, reversed, inbred, outbred, nobody is sure anymore if the NL's they have, are the true ones. Let alone it being a heirloom. Does that really matter? If you care, it does. If you have a wonderful strain with all the characteristics you like, then I'd say: why not make it your heirloom? Since every generation has at least some genetic mixing/variation/mutations, and even wildtypes are not always stable. If a wild type can be a heirloom, why couldn't a domesticated plant be one too?
Man, I'm creating my own internal discussions here ;-) I have no actual answer. Just an opinion.

I know a few dudes who travel europe and asia to find their own wildtype heirlooms, and start breeding with them. They found wild autoflowers in the Czech republic, indica's from vietnam and india, hybrids from morrocco and sativa hybrids from mexico.
Stable generations as far as I know occur at F6, sometimes even F8.

I'm doing a few projects of my own, to stabilize large autoflowers with a late flowering gene. Next to that I'm hybridizing my own strains with a very diverse gene pool to find the ultimate outdoor strain for the Netherlands.
The past 6 to 7 years it took, and my guess is that it will keep me busy for another 5 years.

Seed stores in my country are popping up like mushrooms after a rainy day. So there's just a few trustworthy sources to go to. The decision to screw that, and go DIY was one of the best in my life. I collected nearly 50 different strains and started messing around with them back in 2009. My freezer is nearly overflowing with seeds, and I love that idea. I can hand out a hand full to a friend in need whenever I want, and I have some nice collaborations with fellow growers that don't cost me a single dime except for postage stamps.

As for sativa strains that go way back, I'd suggest the ones Sensi sells. They have been around since the 90's and don't seem to have changed their genetics since. I own some of their NL#5 x Haze, which I keep for whenever I want to create a good indoor strain. The NL#5 is one from the first few selection pools, at least, that's what the legends say. Sensi is insanely expensive though.. Especially when it comes to non-fem seeds.
Most strains originating from Durban seem to be pretty true sativa, but here too there's been a lot of mixing and meddling. I did find that some Durban Poison still taste and smell the same as 13 years ago (back then it was sold as being Power Plant, but that strain doesn't exist anymore; the genetics have been screwed up over generations, nowadays it's an indica instead of a 70-90% sativa and it looks and tastes like an indica).
Dr. Grinspoon is as true sativa as it gets as far as I know. I don't think it's even meant to be grown for the crop, but only for it's genetic profile. I've never seen anyone harvest anything worth smoking, but I did see people use it to create some awesome hybrids with high sativa percentages.

I'm always interested in discussions about what it means to make your own seeds. So here's my 2 cents.

As for seedsaver-friendly stores, I have no sources to give other than sensi. There are a few breeders out there that accommodate the need for regular stable strains, but they do it mainly for themselves or medical patients only. Aside from that, they're located in Europe. I don't know if they ship across the globe.
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#3 Heirloom

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:00 PM

PirateFarmer great subject. I have read that Skunk#1, Afghani#1 and Original Haze are true breeding, but best used for crossing. They might be found from Seedsman.

Another source would be growers from Kentucky to the west coast, some growers make their own seeds.
They don't release these to others for the most part.

The problem with buying seeds is they are F1 but also they use 1:1 breeding , 1 female to 1 male.
This prevents these from being used to create a healthy population.

Think of 2 people on Mars trying to save the human race, won't work. More "Founders" are needed.
Lokk into founding populations of outbreeders/ out crosser's like corn, dogs humans...ect.

Cannabis is very sensitive to inbreeding depression , more so than corn/maize. I think equal to humans,
or more.

to get an idea heirloom corn varieties require 200 - 400 plants to interbreed , in order to produce seeds for the next crop.This is if you want to grow for a lifetime and pas them on to other growers to produce for hundreds of years.

I would suggest reading Seed To Seed by S. Ashworth
Breed Your Own Vegetables by Carol Deppe,
Breeding Field Crops by Poehlman and Sleper and
Marijuana Botany by R.C Clarke.

http://www.pothoo.co...uana Botany.pdf


Don't be discouraged, with a number of seeds ( founders) you can make a population and go from there.
You can create a "composite or synthetic population" often used in farming. they also use 3way and 4 way crosses for single crops.


One thing I learned is that if you got a good plant save it through cloning, many plants are grown from clones including fruit trees through grafting.

I will get back here when I feel better, I am kind of sick and just posted this to keep this going.

I hope this makes sense, this is a real complicated subject.
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#4 Dipole

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 01:51 PM

My half ass'ed attempt at breeding a few years back resulted in a crappy breed.  I concluded the only way a breeding program can work with cannabis is you need to deal with an awful lot of plants.  I forget who said it, but it is better to spend your time with well bred plants.


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#5 Heirloom

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:00 PM

I'm charging my camera battery or I would show a pic of a page on Quantitative Inheritance
in plant breeding from breeding field crops.

An F3 will be stable for traits passed by only one gene., cannabis is more complicated.
I don't buy into the F8 stable set either.

Genes are not always exchanged as simple as 1 gene but often in blocks, this is called
Quantitative Inheritance.
genes very close to each other are transferred in groups, gene linkage, bottlenecks...ect

An interesting subject to be explored is "transgressive segregation" and how it can create a
super plant, to be preserved by cloning.

Populations will always need selection to keep true to the breed , see dog breeding.

Plant numbers and conscious selection are required to keep a heirloom variety forever.
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#6 Hash_Man

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 05:32 PM

@Piratefarmer are you familiar with
Mandala seeds:http://www.mandalaseeds.com

Not only are they known for some top shelf strains like Satori from personally scouted landrace stock, Mandala Seeds was founded in 2004 by Mike and Jasmin and together we share more than 40 years of experience in cannabis cultivation, breeding, and collecting heirloom strains. Jasmin is a biologist who has worked professionally in horticulture and agriculture.

Edited by Hash_Man, 19 March 2017 - 05:56 PM.

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#7 Heirloom

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:50 PM

The problem finding open pollenated seed varieties that can be grown forever, year after year
are the legal issues.

I would love to have a coffee cup of hash farm seeds from Lebanon or another hash producing
Country. They probably would not be suitable for indoor grows. To really use them I would need to grow outdoors , like by the acre.

Traveling to cannabis growing regions to obtain seeds is dangerous.

I read books on growing /breeding but I have found that I am better off cloning.

Cannabis is an out crosser, plants that are inbreeders are easy to maintain, like peas ,beans..ect
Outcrossers require a large number of plants , inbreeders require a few seeds to carry on forever.

This may sound crazy but think of your cannabis population as people and breed from there.


I am quite buzzed
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#8 PirateFarmer

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:49 PM

Great input from everybody! I think I should have used the more accurate term of 'open-pollinated', for this discussion, but I wanted to also include the idea of using 'old' strains. I, myself, don't know exactly when to consider a strain as stabilized - so I said 'at least' f3. As has been mentioned, mj can be much more complicated than breeding, say corn - but tomatoes have new and heirloom open-pollinated strains (I grow 3 different Brandywines for market). HS - I have read the first three books - am trying to buy them this Spring. H-M - I AM familiar w/ Mandala - as I mentioned in my original post...but their (yours?) website shows them as closed, currently. I specifically want to ask them about Satori...and am deeply bummed that I missed my chance, evidently, to ever try Speed Queen. I want to know if their strains are still landraces or descended from such, and which, if any/all are now true-to-type stabilized open-pollinated. I don't really have the room or time or inclination to try to breed my own new strain (and probably not the ability, truth be told). I've bought several different Brandywine strains, settled on the ones from Baker Creek Seeds, and then selected for production features that best fit my micro-climate and growth techniques and saved the seeds.

THAT is what I'm really aiming for: finding specific strains (and their seedbanks to buy from), taking in several different ones with the intention to select one of each type (indica/sativa or cross of) and methinks the conversation here is quite exciting. As I said, Mandala seems promising (I have tried a couple of their strains, before). Any others known out there? HS - your point is well made - and is exactly one of the main reasons I save seeds, and want to do w/ mj seeds: the more of us out here in the hinterlands are each maintaining a strain (or two) of mj, the better it is for the preservation of strains we all know and love. 90+% of our food seeds grown at the beginning of the last century are now gone forever. I remember the great excitement of even the possibility that the rumors were true, that Humboldt County Green had been found (or possibly re-invented). Over here, the new administration is mumbling about taking back the freedoms we've won about states legalizing mj for medical and/or recreational use. And stepping up efforts to stop the import of the seeds. Whether they do so, or not, I want to be prepared...yet ANOTHER reason, for me, to save mj seeds.

 

BTW: Heirloom Spores - I hope you are feeling better, by now...and if not, that you soon be.


Edited by PirateFarmer, 21 March 2017 - 01:53 PM.

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#9 Heirloom

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:36 PM

A little bit on open pollenated synthetic populations. You can do this with clones and seeds, if you got the area. I flower out 3 plants at a time so I rely on clones.

http://breedingandpl...-cultivars.html

1. Synthetic cultivar versus germless composites




There are two basic types of open-pollinated populations of crops – those produced by population improvement, and synthetics. As previously discussed, population improvement methods can be categorized into two – those that depend on purely phenotypic selection and those that involve selection with progeny testing. A synthetic cultivar may be defined as an advanced generation of crossfertilized seed

mixture of parents that may be strains, clones, or hybrids. The parents are selected based on GCA. The primary distinction between these basic types of populations mentioned in this section is that population improvement cultivars can be propagated indefinitely as such. However, a synthetic cultivar is propagated for only a limited number of generations and then must be reconstituted from the parental stock. A synthetic population differs from a natural population by consisting of breeder-selected parental stocks. Germplasm composites is a broad term used to refer to the mixing together of breeding materials on the basis of some agronomic trait, followed by random mating. There are many ways to put a composite together. Germplasm composites are by nature genetically broad based and very complex. They can be

used as for commercial cultivation over a broad range of agroecological environments. However, they can also be used as reservoirs of useful genes for use in breeding programs.




2 Desirable features of a synthetic cultivar




K.J. Frey summarized three major desirable features of synthetic cultivars as:

Yield reduction in advanced generations is less than with a single or double cross. For example,in maize an estimated 15–30% reduction occurs between F1 and F2, as compared to only a reduction of 5–15% from syn-1 to syn-2. This slow rate of reduction in yield makes it unnecessary for producers to obtain new seed of the cultivar for planting in each season.

A synthetic cultivar may become better adapted to the local production environment over time, as it is produced in successive generations in the region.

A synthetic cultivar is genetically heterogeneous, a population structure that makes it perform stably over changing environmental conditions. Further, because of this heterogeneity, both natural and artificial selection can modify the genotypic structure of synthetic cultivars. That is, a breeder may achieve gain in performance by practicing selection in syn-2 and subsequent generations.




3 Application





The synthetic method of breeding is suitable for improving cross-fertilized crops. It is widely used to breed forage species. Successful synthetic cultivars have been bred for corn, sugar beets, and other species. The suitability of forage species for this method of breeding stems from several biological factors. Forages have perfect flowers, making it difficult to produce hybrid seed for commercial use. The use of male sterility may facilitate controlled cross-pollination, which is difficult to achieve in most forage species. To test individual plants for use in producing the commercial seed, it is essential to obtain sufficient seed from these plants. The amount of seed obtained from single plants of these species is often inadequate for a progeny test. Furthermore, forage species often exhibit self-incompatibility, a condition that inhibits the production of selfed seed. Synthetic cultivars are also used as gene pools in breeding progeny. Synthetic cultivars are advantageous in agricultural production systems where farmers routinely save seed for planting. One of the well-known and widely used synthetic is the Iowa stiff-stalk synthetic of maize


On composite population
https://en.wikipedia...mposite_variety

A composite variety is a plant population in which at least 70% of its progeny result from the crossing of the parent lines.

Composite variety is a variety developed by mixing the seeds of various phenotypically outstanding lines possessing similarities for various characteristics like height, seed size, seed color, maturity etc. Crossing among the selected is encouraged. Features of Composite Variety Heterogeneous Relevant to cross pollinated species only Can be developed from open pollinated variety any other heterozygous variety Farmer can use his own saved seed for 3 to 4 years

Edited by Heirloom Spores, 21 March 2017 - 05:05 PM.

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#10 Hash_Man

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:18 PM

Yea Mandela (anyway yrs ago) runs out of seeds, I use to have to wait Nov-Dec

Ive Emailed him/them off season and he's returned emails, lots places carry Mandela seeds . .

I must have missed that Heirloom wasn't feeling well . . . Good vibes bro

#11 Heirloom

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 08:57 PM

Mandala gives a list of vendors on their site, prices are good.
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#12 PirateFarmer

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 03:03 PM

I've seen the various sites that sell Mandala seeds...and have bought from them...my 'problem' is that they don't really know much about the many, many strains they sell, except the basics...I haven't received (in the past) any response from Mandala site, itself, when they are closed, except reference to the other sites. I want to discuss w/ them their various seeds to gain insight as to open-pollinated strain(s) that they think would best fit my goals. 

Heirloom - It takes me a bit of concentration but I discover insight from your posts. You are able to make the complex a bit easier to understand. I, myself, have a broad, but basic, understanding of the vast subject of breeding. I could get so lost in it, that I could never find the time to actually do it - the growing - in my life time! LOL. So, thanks for that!

 

I build off of the knowledge others have used to create a strain, to narrow down my choices to what ones I want to try, buy them, grow them out, have my friends and customers evaluate them for results, go back & buy new seed of the ones they like best & then select for ones that best grow in my conditions & keep seeds from those. 


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#13 Heirloom

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 03:38 PM

my all time favorite is the nirvana white rhino. Though an F1, cost was little.

others of my favorites are ppp - pure power plant, original haze, I liked shiva, got some that tasted like hash. others might be un named clones .

I have never created a strain . I now believe in keeping clones not making seeds.

Pirate I send good vibes to you , peace and safety.

namaste
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#14 PirateFarmer

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 04:30 PM

Heirloom: To you, too. Have you recovered from being sick? I just checked out WR = it appears to be an indica-dominate strain. For now, I'm looking for a Sativa-dominate...leaning towards good ol' White Widow. Weird, that some sites show Super Silver Haze as being sativa-dominate, but others show it as indica-dominate. Cannabisseeds.com is having a buy-2-get-1-free sale today...36 fem WW or SSH for $58 w/ free shipping. 


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#15 JanSteen

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 03:07 PM

True SSH is sativa; 16 weeks of flowering and very thin fingers.
A true White widow should be mainly indica. I know a dude that actually got the seeds from the dude that made the first commercial WW, back in 1995 or something. He donated all of his own 500+ seeds to me back in 2006, but none of them germinated. They should be mainly indica though.

@heirloom spores: can you describe the flavor of the PPP you had? Here in the NL's they have changed the genetics so much, that the Power plant I bought when I was a rookie, is now closest to Durban Poison instead of PP.
I had the Nirvana PPP but it tasted like any other coffeeshop weed: sweet and fruity. While I remember PP being dank, heavy, almost like a good steak covered in days old sweat. The only tone that came close to fruit, was the tone of pine tree.
I'm wondering where I might be able to get the old one I remember.
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#16 Heirloom

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 04:01 PM

JanSteen the ppp I got was a freebie and its taste was generic though better than having nothing or
buying commercial. The yield was good but I lost the clone in my pursuit of something better.

its getting harder and harder to find some of those great flavors I am learning to be content with
what I have, like the old days when it was all imported not homegrown.

I have never tried SuperSilverHaze , my favorite sativa is original haze.
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#17 fungi2bwith

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 01:19 AM

I didn't read all the responses, but i do have to disagree that heirloom means landrace.....heirloom tomatos aren't wild landrace tomato's, they've been domesticated and selectively bred to bring out certain characteristics.....

 

I would definately consider northern lights to be an heirloom variety, as well as S.A.G.E., blueberry and Mighty Mite....lol, yeah, I said it....mighty mite......just to name a few....

Though, todays genetics are so muddled and mixed up that finding something that breeds true is quite the gem....

 

The only original landrace that I would ever care to grow is purple afghani, and never would I want to run landrace sativa's.....just personal preference...



#18 PirateFarmer

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 04:01 PM

Correct, heirloom tomatoes are NOT landraces - I might have misstated that - they ARE open-pollinated, which is what I meant. Fungi2 - are any of the ones you mentioned open-pollinated?

 

By way of wikipedia:

 

A landrace is a domesticated, locally adapted,[1][2][3] traditional variety[4] of a species of animal or plant that has developed over time, through adaptation to its natural and cultural environment of agriculture and pastoralism, and due to isolation from other populations of the species.[1] Landraces are generally distinguished from cultivars, and from breeds in the standardized sense, although the term landrace breed is sometimes used as distinguished from the term standardized breed when referring to cattle.[5] The -race in this word refers to the taxonomic definition of race in biology, not the ethnographic sense of the word.

Specimens of a landrace tend to be relatively genetically uniform, but are more diverse than members of a standardized or formal breed.[1] Some standardized animal breeds originate from attempts to make landraces more consistent through selective breeding and a landrace may become a more formal breed with the creation of a breed registry and/or publication of a breed standard. In such a case, the landrace may be thought of as a "stage" in breed development. However, in other cases, formalizing a landrace may result in the genetic resource of a landrace being lost through crossbreeding.[1] Landraces are distinct from ancestral wild species of modern stock, and from separate species or subspecies derived from the same ancestor as modern domestic stock. Landraces are not all derived from ancient stock largely unmodified by human breeding interests. In a number of cases, most commonly dogs and horses, domestic animals have escaped in sufficient numbers in an area to breed feral populations that, through evolutionary pressure, can form new landraces in only a few centuries. In other cases, simple failure to maintain breeding regimens can do the same.[citation needed] For example, selectively bred cultivars can become new landraces when loosely selective reproduction is applied.[6]

Increasing adoption of and reliance upon modern, purposefully selected plant strains, considered improved – "scientifically bred to be uniform and stable"[7] – has led to a reduction in biodiversity.[7][8] The majority of the genetic diversity of domesticated species lies in landraces and other traditionally used varieties,[8] a "reservoir of genetic resources".[7]


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#19 Heirloom

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 04:07 PM

I think heirloom means handed on to neighbors , family and so on over the years, decades and centuries.

They are not wild but domesticated and used to live on by the growers.

Heirlooms should by now include not only seeds but all plants & fungi ect passed on over generations.

This might be cannabis clones , mushroom spores , vegatables , fruit plants and trees, grafted vines.
peyote.

I agree fungi these old cultivars are heirlooms, many go back decades into my youth and I am 57.

Is Mighty Mite even around now? Hey the PF orginal an heirloom.

We are so lucky to be here now, its up to us to see these are preserved for the future.

I am stoned on hash plants , I must live in paradise.
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#20 Heirloom

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 04:20 PM

Great post Pirate, wild and landrace are not the same. this of of great interest to me as I live
in an area where feral hemp grows wildly. I thought of it as a gene pool. A great treasure.

There are open pollinated inbreeder plants and open pollenated out breeders.

Did I say I am smoking hash plant?
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