Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Finding 'heirloom' or true-to-type seeds


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#21 PirateFarmer

PirateFarmer

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 609 posts

Posted 19 April 2017 - 04:48 PM

Ordered 36 feminized White Widow seeds from cannabisseeds.com, last week. Buy 2 packs (twelve per pack), get 3rd one free. $29 per pack = $58...get a total of 36. Yay for me!!!! Methinks I'll take one and cross it onto my NL, just to see what happens. If nothing else, it would probably make a nice bubble hash, ayuh?


  • Heirloom likes this

#22 Heirloom

Heirloom

    practitioner

  • OG VIP
  • 3,825 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 23 April 2017 - 01:42 PM

Small populations vs. large populations Genetic Drift, a simple explanation.

Dipole
I concluded the only way a breeding program can work with cannabis is you need to deal with an awful lot of plants.


Analogy with marbles in a jar:


"The process of genetic drift can be illustrated using 20 marbles in a jar to represent 20 organisms in a population.[7] Consider this jar of marbles as the starting population. Half of the marbles in the jar are red and half blue, and both colors correspond to two different alleles of one gene in the population. In each new generation the organisms reproduce at random. To represent this reproduction, randomly select a marble from the original jar and deposit a new marble with the same color as its "offspring" into a new jar. (The selected marble remains in the original jar.) Repeat this process until there are 20 new marbles in the second jar. The second jar then contains a second generation of "offspring," consisting of 20 marbles of various colors. Unless the second jar contains exactly 10 red marbles and 10 blue marbles, a random shift occurred in the allele frequencies.

Repeat this process a number of times, randomly reproducing each generation of marbles to form the next. The numbers of red and blue marbles picked each generation fluctuates; sometimes more red and sometimes more blue. This fluctuation is analogous to genetic drift – a change in the population's allele frequency resulting from a random variation in the distribution of alleles from one generation to the next.

It is even possible that in any one generation no marbles of a particular color are chosen, meaning they have no offspring. In this example, if no red marbles are selected, the jar representing the new generation contains only blue offspring. If this happens, the red allele has been lost permanently in the population, while the remaining blue allele has become fixed: all future generations are entirely blue. In small populations, fixation can occur in just a few generations."

https://en.wikipedia...i/Genetic_drift

Quantitative genetics is pretty complicated and way beyond simple Mendel, Quantitative genetics use math equations to predict breeding outcomes though determining gene frequencies.

There are two types of genetic variation that are important when dealing with small populations, Genetic drift and inbreeding depression.

https://en.wikipedia...population_size



I thought this might be of some interest to some who want to understand genetics. While I might make a few seeds now and then, I keep clones to ensure I will always have good weed. I can't count on making my own seeds due to genetic drift and inbreeding depression among other factors.



namaste

Attached Files


Edited by Heirloom Spores, 23 April 2017 - 02:29 PM.

  • PirateFarmer likes this

#23 PirateFarmer

PirateFarmer

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 609 posts

Posted 24 April 2017 - 04:05 PM

Heirloom: good stuff - thanks for posting! And that is just about ONE feature = color! True-of-roundness, hardness, size, etc. just adds more things to deal with. But it can be done - otherwise, farming would have died out long ago.


  • Heirloom likes this

#24 PirateFarmer

PirateFarmer

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 609 posts

Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:09 PM

To continue this discussion a bit...your opinion: is White Widow a hybrid or an open-pollinated (true-to-type) strain? In other words, will WW seeds produce similar phenotype WW plants, or will the phenotype and other characteristics be all over the place, as with a hybrid?

 

My opinion, based solely on 2 things, is that it's probably a true strain, and the 2 things I base that on, is that it's been around for a while, now, and used as a parent plant to develop newer hybrid types, and also, because when I've saved WW seeds previously, the next (2, in my case) generations were all very similar to each other, pretty much across the board.

 

As always, I truly welcome any input from others, here...especially if there is included the reasoning for your conclusions. Remember, I am not a politician, so if I'm wrong, not only will it NOT upset me, but I'll see it as valuable learning information.

 

Also, no need to limit this to WW - any info on other hybrid/pure strains are eagerly hoped for. For the purpose of this discussion, I define 'pure' as being a strain that breeds true to type, with only limited variance of phenotypes, as opposed to hybrids. To put in dog terms: Poodle is a 'pure' breed, as is a St. Bernard. But a poodle/St. Bernard cross is a hybrid.

 

Oh, and the reason I focused right now on WW, is because I just got in 3 dozen feminized WW seeds (cost of $58!) just the other day. I'm considering selecting out one to cross onto the NL I have just started. I wonder what I'd get? Ooh, Pirate-gardening is SOOO...fun!


Edited by PirateFarmer, 12 May 2017 - 04:12 PM.

  • Heirloom and Lakegal7 like this

#25 Heirloom

Heirloom

    practitioner

  • OG VIP
  • 3,825 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 12 May 2017 - 04:48 PM

Don't know what the cross will make but why not. If both your plants are F1's they will be called a 4 way cross.

A hybrid crossed to a open pollenated plant is a 3 way cross.

I have heard WW F2's are similar but isn't the yield of the F2's reduced?. I hear it's an F1. I grew white Rhino made seeds and they were similar to the mother but yield was generally less. I also crossed it with original Haze and grew those out outdoors years ago.

Those wr x oh plants produced magenta colored pistils and had a taste similar to the mother wr. Got taller and needed to go longer than the wr, the colas were high quality.

A plant can be a hybrid for one trait and breed true for other traits. There are plants that are hybrid and then stabilized through inbreeding.

I know that the original haze is a stabilized hybrid, breeds true and great smoke and good to cross with.

I hope you make some seeds be nice to see how they do for fun. For sure clone them , wouldn't want you to lose a special plant.


peace dude

Edited by Heirloom , 12 May 2017 - 04:55 PM.

  • PirateFarmer and Lakegal7 like this

#26 PirateFarmer

PirateFarmer

    Mycotopiate

  • Free Member
  • 609 posts

Posted 16 May 2017 - 03:39 PM

WW is f1 or f2? Hmm...I thought it'd been around more than long enough for someone(s) to have grown out and selected out at least 5-6 generations. But, as with most types of farm seeds grown today, the money is in the original development of a new strain, and the re-selling of hybrid seeds - small monetary motivation to develop them out. And with clones so readily available, using clones as a parent for new strains (WR from WW, for instance) is easy to do.

 

Yes, I most definitely plan to clone - I've got a 15-hole bubble-cloner. Trying to decide which rooting gel to use. Planted all 36 in organic seed starter of my own design yesterday.

1 part perlite

3 parts peat moss (couldn't locate coir)

5 parts my own farm composted, screen 1/2" fine. (dog chewed up 1/4" screen LOL)

Planted on Saturday, May 14.


  • Heirloom likes this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!