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First grow log: Exploring a new hobby


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#61 MrModeon

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 03:01 AM

 

The hot water, and steam has probably killed off anything malicious living in there.

That's a red flag right there. :biggrin:

 


 Touche.  :biggrin: 
 

 

 

On a more personal note: I believe in trying your own stuff, seeing what does and doesn't work so you feel confident that you're not doing unnecessary work. Should this box fail miserably, then I'll feel a lot better about the time I have to spend on my pasteurization.  :sleep:

 

Of course one should try things and experiment, however it's not like you're the first member that has tried to skip "unnecessary work" or to try to pull off grows without proper pasteurization or sterilization (whichever is applicable). The bigger trap there is that if you are successful IMHO. I mean I could probably pull off a successful bulk grow skipping all sorts of steps and many growers have and will, however I'm trying to help set you up for success, and ignoring the empirical data and experience of the many growers that came before us is unwise.

 

Fair point. It was an educated guess though:
I was using a very small amount of substrate (about 1L) which allowed me to mix it properly right away. 
Now, to the science: 
Capture.PNG
As you can see, the temperature of the mixture (if properly mixed!) should be 72C after adding the boiling water. Google then told me that at 72C pasteurization takes just 15s while at 63C it takes 30min. I could then also calculate the heat loss from evaporation etc to see if that is maintained for long enough but decided to just add the hot water in the other bucket to delay the cooling. It was then left for more than long enough to fullfill the lower limit of 63C-30m.
 
For people reading this though: This is a very specific case. Normally you won't be able to properly mix the sub which would lead to certain areas possibly not being treated enough. Don't use a calculation like this if you can't ensure proper heat distribution!
 

Pasteurization is a process utilized to kill mesophillic microbes (in our case for mushroom substrates, not milk :tongue:). Bacteria (or their endospores) covers virtually every surface on earth, but the bacteria that we want to kill is the kind that thrive at the same temperatures that we and the desired mycelium do. Don't forget mold spores! Improperly treated substrates can harbor mold spores that are parasitic and can destroy an entire grow and compromise that space for a long time.
 
A couple extra hours at the proper temperatures using flawless technique is so much easier to do than the amount of cleaning that one has to employ after waking up to mold spores covering a substrate. Once it sporulates, yer fucked. That means that a parasitic mold that favors eating mycelium has just covered the entire area with billions of spores, just waiting to germinate on it's next 'victim'.

Thanks for the info! I think I should get a book about the background of it to better understand the microbial stuff. I'm a mechanical engineer so biology is not really my forte. 
 
Might be fun to try this:

Volumetric Air Sampling For Detecting Viable Airborne Mould Spores And Fragments
The settle plate method is generally not recommended. A better method involves impacting a known amount of air on some suitable growth media. The media could be liquid or solid. With this method viable spores or vegetative material would form visible colonies (referred to colony forming units) in the media. These are counted in the lab and expressed as colony forming units (CFU) per cubic meter of air.

When I get my agar set up to see what my CFU/m3 is in my room.  :tongue:
 

I was lying in bed yesterday thinking about the bags I'm going to be sterilizing (shrooms seem to be the only thing on my mind as of late  :meditate:). I planned to use the tyvek sleeve tek, basically tyvek in the top of the bag folded like an accordeon. An idea popped into my head though:
 
Would it be possible to take an air-port syringe (with some polyfill in there), stick it through the microfilter, tape it with some gentle tape and pressure cook with it in there? The syringe would allow clean air exchange during the sterilization and afterwards I would just remove it. That should give me perfect sterilization and no chance of contaminating it while trying to close the bag. Any thoughts? I'll give it a whirl when my finals are done but I would like to hear what you guys think  :happy: I tried it out with a regular plastic bag and it let through enough air that I couldn't pop the bag so that's one part?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

Edit: Almost forgot the jar update:

photo_2017-04-11_11-01-36.jpg


Edited by MrModeon, 11 April 2017 - 04:04 AM.

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#62 fahtster

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 03:21 PM

As far as that last question goes... Are you saying that you would seal the bag prior to PCing it and just poke it with an airport while you PC it so the pressure doesn't make the bag pop? Sounds like your mind is starting to think like myc. Haha.. that's a good sign. I would think that it may be a lil too small of an air outlet given how fast the pressure rises, but I've definitely never tried it, so... do it. If it is a matter of how fast the pressure rises, you could play with the speed at which you heat it up. Maybe you need a few airports to do it or maybe just the one.. either way, it's worth checking out. I think it's a good idea if you can get it off and working.

You can do a lot of cool shit with things that already use in this hobby everyday... I've attached airports to bags to use for FAE. I actually tried to grow mushrooms in a sterile environment (achieved), print multiple caps in one jar in that environment (didn't accomplish due to sporeless caps--really bummed me out lol), and then retrieve said jar to take prints from... Basically, everything that I needed for the entire process was PC'ed in an oven bag; including a glovebox type hand for maneuvering inside the bag.. the way that I did FAE was to connect a longish tubing filled with polyfil for when I wanted to suck the air out with my lungs (put a piece of paper towel over the tube end so I wouldn't inhale polyfil particles) and a syringe/airport "shell" (needle and plunger removed, but filled with polyfil as well) and hook that up to a fish tank bubbler for when I would fill the bag back up with air after I sucked it out.

Following so far? Shit, here's a link I just found.. didn't think it was still on here... https://mycotopia.ne...k-clean-spores/. That should give you some ideas. ;). It would have worked too, if the damn things didn't come out sporeless.

Some people thought it was overkill, but what if you could make hundreds of spore syringes off one jar and guarantee your customers that the syringe was clean because the spores were obtained from an environment that was never exposed to any kind of open air? That was my thinking back then anyway... annnnnnd it was suuuuper fun to do. Plus trying to find a way around problems just by using things that we use everyday is always fun and satisfying. :thumbs_up:

Faht
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#63 MrModeon

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 06:42 PM

As far as that last question goes... Are you saying that you would seal the bag prior to PCing it and just poke it with an airport while you PC it so the pressure doesn't make the bag pop? Sounds like your mind is starting to think like myc. Haha.. that's a good sign. I would think that it may be a lil too small of an air outlet given how fast the pressure rises, but I've definitely never tried it, so... do it. If it is a matter of how fast the pressure rises, you could play with the speed at which you heat it up. Maybe you need a few airports to do it or maybe just the one.. either way, it's worth checking out. I think it's a good idea if you can get it off and working.

Thanks for the reply! Yeah, basically what you said. I've added a picture and a gif to illustrate the principle. 

photo_2017-04-12_01-07-26.jpg

video_2017-04-12_01-07-23.gif

Imagine that the green square is the filter patch and the syringe would be taped so that it is more vertical, else it might puncture the bag. :tongue:   The rate of pressure increase would definitely be the deciding factor but as the pressure increases, the speed with which air is let out of the bag would increase as well. Plastic is pretty strong in terms of withstanding pressure so it seems plausible to me. Guess the proof is in the pudding though so I'll definitely try it out. What's one filter bag in the pursuit of science?  :cool: I'll keep you guys updated on the results.

 

You can do a lot of cool shit with things that already use in this hobby everyday... I've attached airports to bags to use for FAE. I actually tried to grow mushrooms in a sterile environment (achieved), print multiple caps in one jar in that environment (didn't accomplish due to sporeless caps--really bummed me out lol), and then retrieve said jar to take prints from... Basically, everything that I needed for the entire process was PC'ed in an oven bag; including a glovebox type hand for maneuvering inside the bag.. the way that I did FAE was to connect a longish tubing filled with polyfil for when I wanted to suck the air out with my lungs (put a piece of paper towel over the tube end so I wouldn't inhale polyfil particles) and a syringe/airport "shell" (needle and plunger removed, but filled with polyfil as well) and hook that up to a fish tank bubbler for when I would fill the bag back up with air after I sucked it out.
Following so far? Shit, here's a link I just found.. didn't think it was still on here... https://mycotopia.ne...k-clean-spores/. That should give you some ideas. ;). It would have worked too, if the damn things didn't come out sporeless.
Some people thought it was overkill, but what if you could make hundreds of spore syringes off one jar and guarantee your customers that the syringe was clean because the spores were obtained from an environment that was never exposed to any kind of open air? That was my thinking back then anyway... annnnnnd it was suuuuper fun to do. Plus trying to find a way around problems just by using things that we use everyday is always fun and satisfying. :thumbs_up:
Faht

I really like your idea. Experiments are the foundation of knowledge  :sleep:  Are you still working on it or have you abandoned the project? I didn't even know you could get sporeless caps, sounds like a second attempt might be successful. You would even be able to clone good ones without the need to clean it up on agar. Also, I wouldn't care about people saying its overkill, over engineering is an art form  :meditate: 

 

 Edit: Forgot to mention it but I innoculated two 250ml jars of WBS with Galindoi today. I'll use them to make a bunch of LC to start my truffle production. Very excited about that  :wub:


Edited by MrModeon, 11 April 2017 - 07:00 PM.

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#64 fahtster

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Posted 11 April 2017 - 07:20 PM

It was abandoned.. just waiting for that special someone to pick it up again hahaha. I see what you're sayin about the increases in speed. Yeah, yo.. giver a go! Definitely keep us posted.. :popcorn:

Faht
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#65 MrModeon

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 04:22 AM

Look at these beautiful jars  :cool: 

photo_2017-04-12_11-20-38.jpg


Edited by MrModeon, 12 April 2017 - 04:24 AM.

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#66 MLBjammer

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 04:29 AM

Those look healthy for sure.  Nice job, dude.


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#67 MrModeon

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Posted 13 April 2017 - 12:13 PM

photo_2017-04-13_18-46-47.jpg

 

They're going a lot faster than I had anticipated. I'd better make sure I have enough substrate  :biggrin: 


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#68 Arathu

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Posted 14 April 2017 - 07:05 PM

Ready to rock and roll very soon..................a good problem to have.........

 

:biggrin:

 

A


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#69 CatsAndBats

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 02:01 PM

attachicon.gifphoto_2017-04-13_18-46-47.jpg

 

They're going a lot faster than I had anticipated. I'd better make sure I have enough substrate  :biggrin: 

 

 

I like the millet ratio, more inoculation points when spawned. Well done. What are you going to do with them?


Edited by CatsAndBats, 15 April 2017 - 02:02 PM.


#70 MrModeon

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 07:34 AM

I like the millet ratio, more inoculation points when spawned. Well done. What are you going to do with them?

 
They'll be mixed with a (properly pasteurized  :tongue:) coco coir, vermiculite, coffee and gypsum substrate in trays. Then I'll leave them for two weeks and then case 'm with a  peat moss & vermiculite casing. The two weeks will also give me enough time to get the humidification and ventilation of the green house properly set up. 
 
I still have exams at the moment though so I won't be able to get to it before Friday. I've already put the jars that were at 100% for two days in a kitchen cupboard, where it's a bit cooler. The rest still have patches that are not done and one of the jars looked like there was no myc. in it at all for a long time but I think that was just an unlucky coincidence with all the growth on the inside (second jar on the top left).
photo_2017-04-16_14-27-46.jpg
photo_2017-04-16_14-27-42.jpg
 
Would like you guys' advice on something though. The box I made on the 8th is now looking like this: 
photo_2017-04-16_14-27-55.jpg
photo_2017-04-16_14-27-52.jpg
photo_2017-04-16_14-27-49.jpg
 
Do you think it's ready to put in the f.c.?
Also, I think I made the substrate too wet or is that much condensation normal? 
 
If I get the go-ahead I'll put it in the chamber and see where it goes from there  :sleep:


Edited by MrModeon, 16 April 2017 - 07:45 AM.


#71 Arathu

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 09:03 AM

That condensation looks normal to me...IMHO it shows you that the fungus is vigorous..........my tubs used to look like they were being sprayed but they weren't.......

 

There are different opinions on this but if the surface on a substrate I had looked like that, assuming there isn't a bunch of uncolonized sub there......I'd be fruiting them.......

 

Some don't even incubate things anymore.................right now that looks good from here!

 

A


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#72 CatsAndBats

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 09:07 AM

Condensation = good, pooling = bad is my understanding and is what is normally 'preached'. IME/IMHO.


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#73 MrModeon

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 09:25 AM

That condensation looks normal to me...IMHO it shows you that the fungus is vigorous..........my tubs used to look like they were being sprayed but they weren't.......

There are different opinions on this but if the surface on a substrate I had looked like that, assuming there isn't a bunch of uncolonized sub there......I'd be fruiting them.......

Some don't even incubate things anymore.................right now that looks good from here!

A

I trust you so I opened it up. Gotta say, it looks pretty  :wub:

 

photo_2017-04-16_16-21-53.jpg

 

Since I don't have anything else in there now, I've just put them in the greenhouse with my humidifier set to 85% RH.

 

photo_2017-04-16_16-21-56.jpg

photo_2017-04-16_16-21-59.jpg

 

And now we wait  :meditate:


Edited by MrModeon, 16 April 2017 - 09:32 AM.


#74 Arathu

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 09:50 AM

Seeing it opened.......I'd have done what you've done...........and now we wait............ :meditate:


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#75 MrModeon

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 11:25 AM

Good to hear, Arathu!

 

Thought my boys would like some circulation so I put a fan I had lying around in there. Any thought on if I should keep it on a schedule or just leave it running nonstop? 

 

photo_2017-04-16_18-22-39.jpg



#76 CatsAndBats

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 11:42 AM

This subject has come up a couple of times :biggrin:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...ete-pix-inside/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...-randoms/page-5

 

https://mycotopia.ne...rtha/?p=1233148

 

https://mycotopia.ne...-chamber-build/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...fiercontroller/

 

I'm currently on a 24hr indirect fan plan. :tongue:, but I run monotubs.


Edited by CatsAndBats, 16 April 2017 - 11:42 AM.

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#77 MrModeon

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 12:45 PM

This subject has come up a couple of times :biggrin:

 

Links

 

I'm currently on a 24hr indirect fan plan. :tongue:, but I run monotubs.

Thanks for the links! Those are some sick setups. If everything works out, I'd be interested in something like that. 

 

Hmmm.. As long as the humidity is maintained, it shouldn't really matter right? The space it has available in the greenhouse right now is comparable to a monotub so the amount of air moving over each area of surface should also be roughly the same. I think I'll keep it like this for now. Mainly because putting it on a schedule would be more work  :sleep:  Maybe I'll stick a finger in there every day to check if it's still moist. (No pun intended  :biggrin:) In the meantime I'll just set the RH to 90%. 

 

Edit: What would be signs that my sub is too dry? I'm only getting stuff about jars when I search for that. 


Edited by MrModeon, 16 April 2017 - 01:04 PM.


#78 CatsAndBats

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 01:08 PM

A lil lower to initiate pins IME/IMHO, but barring disaster, you'll see fruits anywhere between 70-99% humidity (pretty sure that I've gone lower). Here's all of my thoughts essentially from "spore to spore".

 

https://mycotopia.ne...-cubensis-bulk/


Edited by CatsAndBats, 16 April 2017 - 01:08 PM.

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#79 MrModeon

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 01:27 PM

Thanks! I've changed it to 80%, which will make it swing between 75-85. I'll leave it alone for now, else I'll spend just as much time messing with it as spraying would have took  :tongue: 


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#80 Arathu

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 01:39 PM

I knew the cubie curators would chime in shortly......... :biggrin:

 

All I ran were mono tubs and my fan was on a timer 6X/day.............probably could have been more given the amount of fuzzy feet and caps I had.......

 

In any case you're in good hands.................I can't wait to see some pin porn..............

 

A


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