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pf tek: extra water ? tips ?


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#21 the_chosen_one

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:16 PM

by no means am i stating that the pf formula doesn't work... it's this "Max fruiting formula" BS that i'm talking about... i'll get into it more when i get back from my errands....
fahtster


:D

I like the old skool recipe. The max fruiting formula gave me inconsistent results quite often. Of course it could simply be something I was doing on my end. Once again, no documented proof.
One thing I've learned over my 15 years in this hobby though is that more is not always better. I've been made a firm believer in finesse style growing.

#22 Hippie3

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 12:26 PM

this "Max fruiting formula" BS


every single pf-style jar i've ever made
these last 8+ years
has been the max formula,
2:1:1 verm:rice:water
every report of how great mycro's jars are
is based on the max formula.

besides
the max formula has MORE water than the standard,
and aren't you arguing that more water is better ??

#23 fahtster

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 01:30 PM

I like the old skool recipe. The max fruiting formula gave me inconsistent results quite often. Of course it could simply be something I was doing on my end. Once again, no documented proof.
One thing I've learned over my 15 years in this hobby though is that more is not always better. I've been made a firm believer in finesse style growing.

this is exactly what i'm stating. I think that there is more ways to skin this cat called the pf cake. I just don't want peeps saying that something shouldn't be done a certain way based on ritual. i'm curious what the old skool recipe is... haven't been around long enough.

ok, lets first sort out what we are talking about. First and foremost, I'd like to say that i'm not in ANY way saying that mycrotopia jars aren't sufficient in doing what they are intended to do. I'm sure they kick royal ass, BUT they do not belong in this discussion... you, along with myself, have altered the standard pf tek recipe, AKA "max fruiting formula". So therefore are void of any kind of comparison. I'm sorry, but 1/4 Cup of water is NOT enough to carry a 1/2 pint cake thru three weeks (on average for a noob) of colonization... one week of pinning and one week of fruiting. even with a DEC applied. It may be enough to get a flush... not arguing that. BUT is not anywhere near enough to get "Max fruiting". if you want to call it the..."good enough to get an ok flush to mid range, if you're lucky, fruiting formula" thats fine... but the title "max fruiting formula" is misleading and just plain wrong. when i made the comparison between too dry and too wet in my second post, I was talking about a cake having either more water than the 1/4 c. or less water than the 1/4 c. where more water just takes longer to colonize but still has the potential for higher fruiting whereas, a cake that is dryer will tend to stall out leaving uncolonized areas to deal with along with hydrating the cake... basically, a wetter cake has a better chance for survival and a good flush compared to a dry cake. more may not always be better but in this case i lean towards a wetter cake. there are examples of this on a daily basis on this website. people posting pics of cakes that only a couple mushies growing on them. their cakes are dry... sure some have weak substrains growing on them, but for the most part it's cuz they are low in H2O. btw, people posting those pics, in no way am I trying to deter you from posting your pics. ANY mushie is a beautiful one and I love seeing them, just using your pics as a reference. ;) water is the key to max fruiting... ok, i use 1/3 cup water in my recipe... even then I have to incorporate post birth hydration methods to pull a max flush out of them. I have proof of this... already posted on this site. if i was going to name the recipe that i use, i.e. 1/3 cup water, I would call it... "max fruiting potential with the use of post birth hydration methods such as dunking or DEC saturation or inner rez, etc. formula".
this is when i started upping the ante on water in the formula... http://www.mycotopia...html?1076592384 I was getting bad first flushes before i started dunking prior to the intial flush. so i started dunking, but this slowed the onset of pinning. so i wanted to get rid of that initial dunk.. i did this by adding water to the formula and placing a thick, heavily watered DEC on the cakes along with a wetted inner rez and thats what i got. some more examples... this is a pic of a tub that was done with 1/3 c. water per cake but no other hydration methods were used... the inner rez was kept out ( just out of curiosity as to if i was wasting my time putting a rez in each one.) and the DEC wasn't water beyond it's application...
http://mycotopia.net...14&d=1147305814

they did alright but this is what a bin looks like when a rez is applied and tedious hydration methods are watched and maintained...

http://mycotopia.net...21&d=1149915682

EVERY cake is maxed out. you wanna know the secret to a good cake??? water water water water water water water water water water water. like TCO said, too much can be bad... so my advice to anyone wanting to get a "max fruit" out of their cakes is to find the fine line at which your cakes can take full hydration without high risk of contam's and learn to dance on that line... learn to do a fuckin waltz on that line without falling off... THEN you will have a "max fruiting potential with the use of post birth hydration methods such as dunking or DEC saturation or inner rez, etc. formula". want know why this tub did so good?? .....

http://mycotopia.net...91&d=1153324718

cuz i put an inner rez in with the popcorn.... whats in the rez??? water water water water water water water water water water water water water water water. I kinda expected the inventer of the dunk to be a little more accepting of these methods. ;)

fahtster

#24 fahtster

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 01:31 PM

maybe i'm wrong but isn't the standard the same as the max?? if not, whats the standard... i've never seen it.

fahtster

#25 fahtster

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 01:37 PM

either way it doesn't matter... the "max fruiting" recipe sucks too. lol can't imagine what the standard was... no wonder yall were only getting 2-3 dry grams per cake.

fahtster

#26 beebopboy

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:18 PM

BURNN!!

#27 don't know

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:28 PM

Hip is right. The best way is to wet the brown rice powder first
siince that is the food source.

What I used to do, is put the brown rice powder in a mixing bowel by it
itself, add the water and lit it sit a few minutes to get a total soak up.
I would mix the brown rice powder and water with a fork to get it
really soaked totally.

Then I would add the dry verm and with an electric mixer, whir it all together
and it is perfect for every jar. With an electric mixer, it is much easier
and faster to get your jars ready.

I add the mixture to the jar
1/3 at a time, do a
light tamp of each admixture and with a perfect 1/2 inch or so space at the top, add the
dry verm and give that a little press down. Then it is ready for
sterilization.

Here are a couple of more tips for the best PF TEK results.
After you learn how to make syringes, use 3 cc of spore water per
jar inoculation - go all around the cake so that when germination
begins, the whole side of the cake turns white within 2 weeks. Then,
wait for the bottom of the cake to finish growing in, and then birth
the cake before pinning.

Then next, birtrh the cake and do the DEC and stick the cake in your terrarium. That way always
maxed my first fruitings routinely.
and then of course for subsequent flushed, you can dunk or do the DEC.

The DEC works great because that is just part of the cake clean off
procedure (getting rid of little nubs and pieces of shrooms and stuff)
getting a good clean off really makes the next flushes work great but
it is a bit of a pain to do a really good clean off. I would use a sharp
pointed knife to do that. Also, sometimes I would just slice off the top and
bottom of the cake just below the DEC verm layers. (using a serrated
steak knife only for that)

I always did my cakes like that and I always had plenty of shrooms to
get those spores with a minimum of growing cakes. And I made hundreds
of syringes per week.

The Proff

www.fanaticus.com

#28 don't know

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:40 PM

I just read a little of Fahsters thing about water. Let the master
who invented the PF TEK
tell you the truth about the water.

Just follow the above post, and your flushes will be huge.
dunking the cake as it is first birthed is a waste of time and it could
be counter productive because I think it might interfere with the
initial primordia and pinning appearances.

After the first flush, then a dunk is great to do and of course redo the DEC and soak that verm to max. I would sometimes oversoak the verm, but
with the nature of verm, you can just hold the cake onto its
growing dish, tilt it and the excess water will flow right out, leaving
perfectly totally soaked verm layers that will turn that dryed out
blueing cake back to a beautiful white. It is the turning white that
shows that the cake has rehydrated. I would always get second flushes
sometimes better than the first and the third flush will be fewer abhorts
and more perfect shrooms. And I was a professional PF teker, so I am
not bullshiting you. I desired to get the most efficient way of
getting those shrooms, and in the end, the NARCS were amazed
at how small my little gro op was considering I was THE MAN!!!!
They mentioned the tinyness of my gro op in court appearances and
it probably was what saved my ass, because they pled me out of
the lame ass conspiracy shit right off the bat and I pled guilty
for having 11.4 grams of dried shrooms in a waste basket.

The Proff

for the undiluted PF TEK truth, see ----

www.fanaticus.com

#29 fahtster

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 02:42 PM

I would also like to add that along with the addition of extra water comes the problem with aeration. it's a cycle that needs high maintainence. more water means more air exchange... more air exchange means more water... more water also means more mushies.... get it?? i think what TCO was referring to is also what i like to call the "arch of excellence" lol ... it's the point at which something good becomes something bad... you drink too much water you will die... but there is a point right before you drink too much water that you are "well hydrated"... the goal is to balance the water retention of a cake on the pinnacle of that arch and you will max them out. ;) balance is easy once you know where that pinnacle lies.. once you get there, aerate heavily, water lightly/when needed depending on your container/fruiting chamber.

fahtster

#30 the_chosen_one

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 03:51 PM

hehehe just like the good ol' days :D

Think I'll use that "arch of excellence" term for my DEC and wicking tek :thumbup:

Good to see ya again Prof!!! Hows life on the lake?

#31 Hippie3

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:04 PM

you need to tune the snottiness factor back a bit faht,
i get the distinct impression that you're yelling at me
and i don't appreciate it.
and i require everyone to follow our rules here
even you
so keep a civil tongue
even with PF.

you posted some nice pictures
but i don't see much on invitro performance
which is really what we are talking about
when we're talking cake formulas
as anyone can add water after birthing.
many different ways to do that
other than just putting extra in the formula.

i see nothing to demonstrate faster colonization,
one of the main claims made above.
and nothing about cakes done just with the 1/3 c. water
without extra water added after birthing
by DEC and dunking.

and mycro cakes ARE a valid comparision
as they have exactly 1/4 c. of water
and are grown mostly by newbies,
not faht, not pf, nor even me.

so calm down
take a few breaths and get a grip on yer emotions
then let's discuss this some more
at a lower volume eh ?

#32 the_chosen_one

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:08 PM

Lol, everybody group :hugs: ...:kiss: and make up! :D

The PF Tek is the perfect tek in the fact that it's a foundation that can be adjusted to fit someone's individual needs according to thier conditions. My wicking tek may not work as well for someone in an extremely dry climate where as dunking would prove to be better. And vice versa for someone in a highly humid area. The same applies to the recipe itself. Slight adjustments are often required to get certain strains such as the PFC, which prefers dryer conditions, to perform well. I don't know so much that it's cultivators making it better as it is cultivators dialing it in to suit thier needs.

Faht, you are truly one of those who does an amazing job of dialing :D

#33 d0p0s1t

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:08 PM

you need to tune the snottiness factor back a bit faht,
i get the distinct impression that you're yelling at me
and i don't appreciate it.
and i require everyone to follow our rules here
even you
so keep a civil tongue
even with PF.

you posted some nice pictures
but i don't see much on invitro performance
which is really what we are talking about
when we're talking cake formulas
as anyone can add water after birthing.
many different ways to do that
other than extra formula.

i see nothing to demonstrate faster colonization,
one of the main claims made above.
and nothing about cakes done just with the 1/3 c. water
without extra water added after birthing by DEC and dunking.

and mycro cakes ARE a valid comparision
as they have exactly 1/4 c. of water
and are grown mostly by newbies,
not faht the man.

so calm down
take a few breaths and get a grip on yer emotions
then let's discuss this some more
at a lower volume eh ?


Hear! Hear!.....can't we all just get along?.....I'm sure we can discuss this and come to the best factual answer!....I would really enjoy knowing what it is without anyone getting banned or pissing anyone else off!

#34 Hippie3

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:16 PM

maybe i'm wrong but isn't the standard the same as the max?? if not, whats the standard... i've never seen it.
fahtster


once upon a time...
it was about 10 ml less h2o,
45 ml instead of ~55ml/1/4 c.

#35 Hippie3

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:17 PM

with an electric mixer, whir it all together
and it is perfect for every jar. With an electric mixer, it is much easier
and faster to get your jars ready.


agreed, been using one a couple years now, really helps alot.

#36 the_chosen_one

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:19 PM

once upon a time...
it was about 10 ml less h2o,
45 ml instead of ~55ml/1/4 c.


Less BRF too. Used to be 1/8 cup back in the day. :D

#37 fahtster

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:24 PM

ok... will do... but i was being very civil and i'm not yelling at you at all. I wouldn't yell at you hip. lol i know better than that. I do have a stern voice sometimes but so does everyone. i didn't even talk to pf or mention him I was trying to make some points. then pf came in and stuck his dick in my mouth. then told everyone to not even listen. thats when i get nasty, sorry.

see nothing to demonstrate faster colonization,
one of the main claims made above.


I did retort you, see... "when i made the comparison between too dry and too wet in my second post, I was talking about a cake having either more water than the 1/4 c. or less water than the 1/4 c. where more water just takes longer to colonize but still has the potential for higher fruiting whereas, a cake that is dryer will tend to stall out leaving uncolonized areas to deal with along with hydrating the cake... basically, a wetter cake has a better chance for survival and a good flush compared to a dry cake. more may not always be better but in this case i lean towards a wetter cake."

but i don't see much on invitro performance
which is really what we are talking about
when we're talking cake formulas
as anyone can add water after birthing.
many different ways to do that
other than extra formula.

why?? some strains perform poorly invitro. plus you're the only one talking about invitro, i didn't see anyone else mention it. all i want is for you to acknowledge that it IS safer to add water prior to sterilization than it is post birth... thats all i'm claiming. if what you said above is all that we are talking about. and that the addition of water in the formula is a valid exercise... thats all.

The PF TEK is the perfect tek in the fact that it's a foundation that can be adjusted to fit someone's individual needs according to thier conditions. My wicking tek may not work as well for someone in an extremely dry climate where as dunking would prove to be better. And vice versa for someone in a highly humid area. The same applies to the recipe itself. Slight adjustments are often required to get certain strains such as the PFC, which prefers dryer conditions, to perform well. I don't know so much that it's cultivators making it better as it is cultivators dialing it in to suit thier needs.


bingo... thats all i'm saying. that also would have gotten out without me being a dick had pf just left me alone and not toss around his finite sized ego. that "nobody listen to faht comment sent me off the edge, again, i'm sorry.

fahtster

#38 Hippie3

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 05:34 PM

all i want is for you to acknowledge that it IS safer to add water prior to sterilization than it is post birth


by safer, i presume you mean regarding contamination risk ?
if so then yeah, with that i could agree.
sterile is sterile.

i think perhaps our arguments aren't quite lining up,
i focused on the invitro phase , not the invitro tek per se,
because after birthing you're adding water by DEC
at which point you're not longer just going on the formula.

to be honest
just as you've never done a 'standard' pf cake
i've never made any with 1/3 c. instead of 1/4 c.

frankly i'd be interested in a cake-off that
compared the 1/4 c versus 1/3 c recipes,
my impression at this time is that the 1/4 c. formula
is already a bit soupy at the bottom of the bowl
so it'd be interesting to compare with even more water.

i'm a big fan of dunking,
i've seen enough to be convinced that
no other method rejuvenates a cake as well as dunking,
i don't think any alleged pin set-back or damage is significant enough
to merit any concern, the benefits clearly outweigh the risks/damage.

now it seems to me that your 'arch of excellence'
[commonly called 'point of diminishing returns' elsewhere]
is great for someone willing to devote the time to tweaking the air-water flow to max
but many folks aren't willing/able to give that kind of care/time,
and that's where dunking again excels,
one can very quickly re-hydrate dozens of cakes
with a minimum of labor/time used, even omitting the DEC if desired.
again the overwhelming testimony archived here regarding the effectiveness of dunking
is un-contestable, the verdict is in no doubt.

#39 the_chosen_one

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:24 PM

now it seems to me that your 'arch of excellence'
[commonly called 'point of diminishing returns' elsewhere]
is great for someone willing to devote the time to tweaking the air-water flow to max
but many folks aren't willing/able to give that kind of care/time,
and that's where dunking again excels,
one can very quickly re-hydrate dozens of cakes
with a minimum of labor/time used, even omitting the DEC if desired.
again the overwhelming testimony archived here regarding the effectiveness of dunking
is un-contestable, the verdict is in no doubt.


Yep. The only reason wicking works better than dunking for me is because I'm used to it. I react very quiclky to any changes in the fruiting of the cake simply because I can recognize problem conditions early on. Something that only comes with experience. Please keep in mind this is not bragging, just simple fact. Once the art is established there is even less labor and risk involved than dunking, but for a newbie I would also recommend dunking. At least until one gets to know thier mushies very well. :meditate:

#40 Hippie3

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Posted 16 August 2006 - 06:28 PM

LOL
i'm far from being a newbie
yet i prefer dunking.
i don't want to create an impression that
dunking is just for newbs
and experienced growers have moved beyond it
'cause that ain't always the case.
i'll stack my expertise on cakes against anyone,
you, faht or even pf.
:lol:




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