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Who told actives decompose at 80C????


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#1 Telumehtar

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 04:06 PM

Hello dear Community!

So, there is a myth that mushroom actives are very vulnerable to heat. I'm not a chemist, but I have good 5HT-2A receptors to detect psychedelics' presence, and here is what I did:
1) Measured a threshold dose of dried mushrooms. Somewhere around 150mg. The idea is that if much actives decompose, I won't feel the effects. Otherwise, I will.
2) Put the dose in 250 ml of purified water and slowly boiled it for 20 minutes. In the end there was about 30-40 ml of the brew.
3) Filtered and drank the liquid.

Result: 100% effect. All this is very subjective, but I definitely feel the dose, and this means major part of the actives is there. Otherwise, there would be no noticeable effect.

Also, the effect seems to be 'brighter' than usually. I often get a shitty feeling or even fever on mushrooms, while LSD doesn't do that. My guess is that my organism doesn't like some compounds also present in mushrooms (hidden contamination?), and these compounds have evaporated or decomposed. But this is only my guess. The only thing I can certainly tell you is I liked this brew and I will prepare it again :)

Conclusions:
1) Boiling in water doesn't lead to noticeable loss of the potency of previously dried mushrooms. Actives don't decompose at such temperatures, or do that very slowly.
2) We can feel free to use some heat to extract the actives. New extraction techniques can be developed and applied.
3) We probably can use up to 100C heat to dry mushrooms, but it's not clear if fresh mushrooms will also behave like that.

Possible causes of the myth regarding 80C:
1) Differences in potency between specimens. Once, someone made weak tea from weak mushie, and saw a link between the weakness and heat.
2) Fresh mushrooms probably lose their potency at high temperatures. I have experimented only with dry material (so far). I'd be happy to try the same trick with fresh mushrooms, but we'll have to wait. Or, I don't mind if you try it yourself. Please, join the psy-mythbusters club!
3) Some authority told that and everyone believed
4) There are similar compounds that decopmose easily.


Just to mention: I tried smoking mushrooms (1g dry) and that didn't give any noticeable effects.


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#2 coorsmikey

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Posted 01 November 2017 - 07:33 PM

Funny how that very same idea has been proven, that heat within certain perimeters has little effect to the alkaloids. But yes because someone says it is somewhere along the line, it must be true. “I saw it on the internet” lol. If ya dig a little deeper your will find that some have known this for quite a long time despite the myths. There are people using heat for drying and extracting. Don’t take me wrong please? I appreciate you trying to sway the myth and I’m happy you got off that bus. If my memory serves me correctly, around 2009 people Started not to believe everything in those youtube videos, ventured away from the myth and experimented for themselves. They even posted threads here that are now in the archives if one is inclined to dig around the clutter( sorry for the clutter BTW)

I do have one question. What were ya thinking or trying to do by smoking mushrooms? Was it to prove something or some other craving?

Edited by coorsmikey, 01 November 2017 - 07:39 PM.

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#3 pharmer

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 09:56 AM

ConclusionsSuppositions
1) Boiling in water doesn't  didn't lead to noticeable loss of the potency of previously dried mushrooms. Actives don't    may not decompose at such temperatures, or do that very slowly.
2) We can feel free to use some heat to extract the actives. New extraction techniques can   might be developed and applied.
3) We probably can  may be able to use up to 100C heat to dry mushrooms, but it's not clear if fresh mushrooms will also behave like that.

 

You're at the bottom of the research ladder, not the top. Too soon to be stating categorically that the "discovery" is tried and true science.

 

But you are heartily encouraged to continue.......................   :)

 

trip reports are always welcome


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#4 Cuboid

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 03:09 PM

"I do have one question. What were ya thinking or trying to do by smoking mushrooms? Was it to prove something or some other craving?"

FWIW - I once read that most Psilocybin mushrooms contained Psilocybin, Psilocin, DET, and DMT.



#5 Telumehtar

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 04:43 PM

Thanks everyone for your replies and corrections. The corrections were very useful, even though I don't consider my post a scientific publication. Here I tried to ironically demonstrate that anyone can actually check something instead of taking it on trust. But I should have demonstrated a more responsible and rational approach, do more research etc.

 

I do have one question. What were ya thinking or trying to do by smoking mushrooms? Was it to prove something or some other craving?

 

Well, I knew that smoking mushrooms doesn't work, many people try that because Castaneda described smoking mushrooms if his fiction books.

But I wanted to check if I can smoke them using a waterpipe and charcoal instead of exposing the mushrooms to fire. And nothing happened.


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#6 jkdeth

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Posted 02 November 2017 - 05:27 PM

There's some evidence that parts of amanita muscaria can be smoked.

#7 TVCasualty

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 11:45 AM

A previous discussion of the topic that may be of interest:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...ill-all-psilly/


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#8 Alder Logs

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Posted 05 November 2017 - 12:36 PM

I remember cooking liberty caps in Campbell's cream of mushroom soup and tripping balls.   I gave that up due to a dairy intolerance.   


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#9 Sidestreet

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 06:16 AM

I always avoided heat at all costs, and I think it was costing me.  I keep coming across TEKs that use heat for drying and extraction.

 

From Erowid:

 

 

I'd say the question of Psilocybin + Heat is no longer a controversy, its a misunderstanding coupled with incomplete data. I think the open question is whether all dried mushrooms can be boiled without significant loss or whether some types react better or worse to this treatment.

Sub-boiling or lightly boiling water does not noticably reduce the activity of dried Psilocybe cubensis. Many people ingest their mushrooms as tea without needing to increase the quantity used. We know of people who regularly boil their mushrooms for up to 30 mins before drinking the resulting liquid. All fully active. The hotter the water, the better. The water should be at least slightly acidic, but psilocybin is highly water soluble.

So, the experience of many people says it works. Smoking mushrooms can work, but most mushrooms aren't terribly potent so you need to smoke a lot of mushrooms to get a strong effect (imagine smoking 2 grams of mushrooms ! yuck!). But many reliable sources report a mild effect at smoking a bowl or two and this is potentiated by other entheogens (LSD specifically).

However, this is not to say that psilocin, another active chemical, won't break down quickly in boiling water (it probably will). Different types of mushrooms contain differing ratios of psilocybin to psilocin, so it seems quite possible that different strains would fare differently with boiling or hot water extractions. There is evidence to suggest that some degree of potency loss occurs if Psilocybe cyanescens are heated by a method such as boiling.

https://www.erowid.o...oms_info7.shtml

 

For tea, I would boil water and then let it sit for ten minutes before adding mushrooms.  My tea was pretty weak.  If I had simmered the water with the mushrooms in it (and added some lemon), I bet it would have been much stronger.

 

 

Also from Erowid:

 

 

Psilocybin and psilocin are sensitive to oxidation, with psilocin being particularly sensitive. This process is accelerated at higher temperatures. There is no specific temperature at which this breakdown occurs, however, the longer you expose the psiloc(yb)in to a raised temperature (in the presence of oxygen or an oxidizer), the more will be degraded.



To my knowledge, there has been no study or report of anyone quantifying the amount of degradation at various temperatures. Qualitative reports however seem to indicate that less than an hour of boiling or steeping seems to have little to no effect on the potency of psiloc(yb)in water solution.

https://www.erowid.o...ask.php?ID=2984

 

 

Still sounds like a good idea to store them in cool temperatures but if you're making a recipe, simmer away I guess....


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#10 PinkMenace

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Posted 20 December 2017 - 03:28 PM

This is great, thank you Telumehtar! It's nice to see this come up again, even if it's a bump of a topic that's been explored.

 

New comers like me don't always know who to trust or to what extent something is a myth. For me the heat thing has been locked in my brain in an ambivalent space. My impression was that heat didn't matter as much as people used to make it out to be, but I had no point of reference as to how much that was true. Seeing new exploration of any topic, whether that exploration has been done before or not, is valuable.

 

I liked the thoughtfulness of your methods and I think the faults pharmer was finding in the writing just stemmed from your enthusiasm - which is totally fine, experimenting and learning is fun! Though talking super specifically and always pushing for that extra degree of rigor is also useful, so I'm glad they responded with the amendments. 



#11 TVCasualty

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:57 AM

I always avoided heat at all costs, and I think it was costing me.  I keep coming across TEKs that use heat for drying and extraction.
 
From Erowid:
 

Smoking mushrooms can work, but most mushrooms aren't terribly potent so you need to smoke a lot of mushrooms to get a strong effect (imagine smoking 2 grams of mushrooms ! yuck!). But many reliable sources report a mild effect at smoking a bowl or two and this is potentiated by other entheogens (LSD specifically).

 

Gosh, I never would have thought that smoking mushrooms could work if we also took some acid, lol...

 

I think it's irresponsible of them to include that statement. For one thing, we'd be smoking a lot of chitin (yum!) and depending on how cleanly they were grown it could give us a real nice lung infection, too. I strongly suspect that the statement about how it "can work" is pure bullshit since it's the kind of thing that either works or it doesn't. "Can" work implies spotty results, which could be a function to the placebo effect (assuming one did not also take LSD).


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