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Another big trip, still high anxiety at the end


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#1 bennylava

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:54 PM

Recently took 4.5 grams. It wasn't as bad as my first trip (which I still deem as a good trip) but it was still quite punishing. For about 3 or 4 hours, it was fine. I was having a good time and was talking to the "golden teacher". Which does NOT like to be accused of anything, by the way. The problem came with the extreme fear, or anxiety x1000 when the main part of the trip was over. The last 3 hours of the trip, or somewhere in that area. Hard to keep track of time during a big trip. I'm starting to see some kind of pattern here. It seems like they have some kind of wicked afterburn. They come on strong, teach you lessons, and then burn you on the way out.

 

And man it was punishing. I had to get on tripsit chat and talk to some people just to get the comfort of speaking to another human being. My sanity was slipping again, but I know I won't have the PTSD-like symptoms after this trip like I did last time. Since I've already been there, done that. I guess I've gotten more resistant to it, and perhaps just stronger mentally because of it. But that doesn't make it any fun at all when its actually happening during the trip. Its not worth it. I began once again to question whether I was actually alive, or whether I had died. It did help to think that it didn't really matter either way, that I was still conscious and if I had died, I was somehow still ok. That helped a little bit, but it doesn't give up so easily. It just finds some other way to keep pounding on you.

 

So I've decided that big trips are just not for me. We apparently don't mix well, and it puts me through so much that I feel that I just don't deserve that kind of treatment. So from now on I just won't be going over 2 grams. Most of the time it will be 0.5 grams or under. I'm considering using them only as medicine that will break me out of my slumps and get me back on track to interacting socially with other people and not being depressed. Which normally I'm not, but I do have a tendency to fall back into those bad habits every once in awhile. So I'm swearing off big trips, they're just not worth it. I dare say I've given them their fair shake.

 

Another bad thing about the big trips is that for the next few days, you're kind of foggy and don't think so good. You feel somewhat drained and its kind of hard to be productive in that state. I find that I can't really do all that much that involves greater cognitive activity. So for me that is a pretty big downer. I don't like being incapacitated for so long.


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#2 coorsmikey

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 01:50 AM

Sounds like you could benefit from a guide of some sort for those larger doses. Some people refer to them as shamans. Really anyone that can connect with you and shed some light, keep the vibe on the right track. A navigator to take the wheel and drive the ship so you can enjoy the ride. Someone experienced.
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#3 bennylava

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 02:04 AM

That would probably help. A shaman could likely keep me out of those weird negative thought loops where I think I'm dying or already dead, or that I am no longer sane. Keep getting weird thoughts during that time, like maybe I'm actually in a mental institution lol. So weird. But scary as hell. I know that somehow its my own fault, but I'm not exactly sure what to do about it. Up until that point, the mushrooms have been very clear about what I should change and I fully got the message. But when the extreme anxiety comes on, the mushroom has generally stopped talking. I guess maybe I could get it to talk then, I haven't tried. But there does seem to come a point where it begins to fade, and you are sort of on your own again. You're still tripping, but its like you're more yourself now. That is why I think its towards the end of the trip, on the comedown.



#4 Samwise

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:19 AM

Just a thought, this could party be as a result of the mushrooms themselves, P. cubensis. I know they are very popular given their universality when it comes to growing, but it's worth noting that not all Mazatec shamans will willingly work with the species, and Terrence McKenna had an experience so terrible with them he swore of heroic doses all together. I've had many amazing experiences with them, but some find them to have a dark side and propensity for producing weird alien archetype experiences, and they do seem harder on one's system than other more potent species, I find them a foggier, heavier experience than other species which feel a lot cleaner and clearer to me, and the "falling awake" period coming back down to earth with them can be a bit bumpy. So changing species, maybe to one of the Mexicanae, might improve the quality of your trips and reduce any negative after effects.


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#5 tailsmcsnails

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:57 PM

A wise man once said to me "what are ya scared of? Thinking!? "

Food for thought, yeah?
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#6 Guy1298

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:03 AM

I recall a 7 gram trip that was pure fear. Didn't talk to spirits or anything. Just pure fear. 

 
I continued a few more high doses after that, until one somewhat low dose trip (during that time, I think it was 3g) turned on me. Everyone I saw seemed like they were going to stab me, cars seemed like they were going to drive into me... Circumstances didn't work out and I spent the night walking around with terrible fear that I was going to be killed, felt an incredibly real fear of being suffocated, etc. I was being pulled back into perspectives of old high dose trips thinking I would destroy the world, torture myself, others, etc. 
 
Mushrooms are something. I'm of the opinion that everyone's experiences are incomparable. From someone who deals with deep fear with these things, the best advice I have is loving-kindness, meditation, and low doses. Take it easy. 
 
The next year, I was using low doses and engaging with those fears of people stabbing and killing me, etc., in loving ways. I remember smiling as I imagined myself being killed. All of our fears can be overcome, but be careful. 

Edited by Guy1298, 07 December 2017 - 02:44 AM.

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#7 bennylava

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 02:30 AM

I recall a 7 gram trip that was pure fear. Didn't talk to spirits or anything. Just pure fear. 

 

I continued a few more high doses after that, until one somewhat low dose trip (during that time, I think it was 3g) turned on me. Everyone I saw seemed like they were going to stab me, cars seemed like they were going to drive into me... Circumstances didn't work out and I spent the night walking around with terrible fear that I was going to be killed, felt an incredibly real fear of being suffocated, etc. I was being pulled back into perspectives of old high dose trips thinking I would destroy the world, torture myself, others, etc. 

 

Mushrooms are something. I'm of the opinion that everyone's experiences are incomparable. From someone who deals with deep fear with these things, the best advice I have is loving-kindness, meditation, and low doses. Take it easy. 

 

The next year, I was using low doses and engaging with those fears of people stabbing and killing me, etc., in loving ways. I remember smiling as I imagined myself being killed. All of our fears can be overcome, but be careful. 

 

Well I think I might know where one fear stems from. At the end of both of my high dose trips I was extremely afraid of getting my gun and killing myself. I know where this comes from. It comes from my research. Before ever trying psychedellics I researched them pretty thoroughly. My 2 prerequisites were no damage to body or brain from using them, and no mental damage. Well we've all heard about people who have inadvertently died from the use of psychedellics. Some have even killed themselves to end a bad trip. Something happened where my sanity slipped just enough, that all manner of weird thoughts started entering my head where I began wondering if I'd already killed myself. And it didn't help that a loaded gun was 30 feet away. That thing was just in there laughing at me like some evil tormentor lol. I keep it around for home defense. I'd have been somewhat better off on this last trip, if I'd removed it from my house (say left it with a friend) before tripping. Whew. I was sweating and my heart was beating rapidly and I was under very high stress during the last leg of my last trip. I know what people go through during the fear/anxiety part of the trip. It ain't no fun.

 

And yeah, these things don't just let you down easy. Its more like you crash to earth like an asteriod. Cause I actually had fun during say... the first 4 hours of the trip. I like talking to the golden teacher/overmind whatever you want to call it. Its very informative and I want to learn all it has to teach me. But I can't go back if temporary loss of sanity, and extreme fear is going to be my reward at the end of the trip. I just don't feel like I deserve that kind of a beating. Not again. Maybe once for the lesson that it teaches, but not over and over again.

 

I do have a theory about it though. Eventually, after suffering this beating enough, doing it enough times, it seems to me that a person would get much stronger mentally. And become psychically fortified against it happening again. I'm just not willing to go down that road. I've had enough lol.

 

Just a thought, this could party be as a result of the mushrooms themselves, P. cubensis. I know they are very popular given their universality when it comes to growing, but it's worth noting that not all Mazatec shamans will willingly work with the species, and Terrence McKenna had an experience so terrible with them he swore of heroic doses all together. I've had many amazing experiences with them, but some find them to have a dark side and propensity for producing weird alien archetype experiences, and they do seem harder on one's system than other more potent species, I find them a foggier, heavier experience than other species which feel a lot cleaner and clearer to me, and the "falling awake" period coming back down to earth with them can be a bit bumpy. So changing species, maybe to one of the Mexicanae, might improve the quality of your trips and reduce any negative after effects.

 

So let me get this straight: There are other species that are known to NOT do this? Some that are known to let you down easier? What species are these? Which mushrooms are known for being the most gentle? Maybe I should have started there lol. Just never grew Cubes to begin with, and grew those instead.


Edited by bennylava, 07 December 2017 - 02:32 AM.


#8 onediadem

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 04:06 AM

If you want to do another heroic dose, have someone you trust trip sit with you sober to ground you should you need it. It may be all you need for a better trip.


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#9 PinkMenace

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:53 AM

I support your decision to back off on dosing. While there are things that some people can gain from high dosages, there's no shame in being a person who is better suited to or for whatever other reason partakes in lower dosages. 

 

Also, repeating a shitty experience doesn't automatically make you stronger. It, in fact, can make things worse. Sometimes you just need to step back and improve yourself as a person in other (perhaps non-psychoactive) ways.


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#10 bennylava

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 03:11 AM

Thanks for the replies. If I ever do it again I will have a trip sitter. But I don't think I'll ever do it again.

 

I would like to hear more about the mushrooms that are known to be some what gentler on the tripper though. I've heard that from several sources now. That cubes have something of a dark thread running through them.



#11 Coopdog

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 04:19 AM

A caveat to that is that the mushrooms will always be different. Even if you find a strain that gives you a good ride once may not give you (and probably will not) the same experience the next time. My experience went like this... my first twenty or so experiences were amazing, and I got what I could from the mushrooms pretty early on in my experiences. They showed me the way and I absorbed that and grew from it.

 

Funny you would mention the golden teacher as one day I was coming up and saw this golden hindu kinda guy sitting Indian style with his back to me. He turned and saw me, and to me appeared irritated, and got up and came over and slammed a proverbial door in my face, literally as a trip can be. Like "What are you doing here again?" was my impression. From there my mushroom experiences went South. I found that whether I went big or small, they were overall more trouble than they were worth. I also kind of swore off of big dosages, although I see some more in my future somehow, I just have to grow them and nurture them into fruition myself I think and feel in my soul.

 

Never have expectations about mushrooms, they will throw you a curve ball every damn time.

 

Peace...


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#12 Samwise

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 07:21 AM

I would like to hear more about the mushrooms that are known to be some what gentler on the tripper though. I've heard that from several sources now. That cubes have something of a dark thread running through them.

 

It would be really interesting to hear what you made of different species. The majority consensus from people who have grown and consumed the different species is that there are clear and consistent differences in qualities or character between them. Something like P. galindoi or P. hoogshagenii 'Semperviva' might be worth looking into, both aren't hard to grow and fruit and both get rated very highly for their experiential qualities.

 

These are the views of highly experienced myconaut Mr Elfstone:

 

The other option is to get away from cubensis and go toward the species with a long history of traditional usage, such as Ps. mexicana, or Ps. zapotecorum or Ps. caerulescens. Their signatures are quite different from cubensis and well worth getting acquainted with. Personally, I find cubensis to have too heavy of a body load and I will never take them again. The petite fruiting bodies of the Ps. mexicana agree with me the best. The effort to get them fruiting is well worth it.

 

The species which have a history of traditional usage from the Mazatec culture are far more interesting to me at this point in time than the cubensis strains, which have the potential to unpredictably turn dark at times. The Ps. mexicana strain from Huatla de Jimenez, collected within 200 yards of Maria Sabina's old home, has a lot of light in it and a generally positive spin, inducing states of deep meditative absorption into the formless realms. In fact, having worked with them now for the past several years, I do not feel inclined to ever take another cubensis trip again.

 

Some relevant threads on this topic:

 

https://mycotopia.ne...e-vs-pan-cyans/

 

https://mycotopia.ne...es#entry1343468


Edited by Samwise, 08 December 2017 - 07:25 AM.

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#13 bennylava

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 05:24 PM


 

The Ps. mexicana strain from Huatla de Jimenez...has a lot of light in it and a generally positive spin, inducing states of deep meditative absorption into the formless realms. In fact, having worked with them now for the past several years, I do not feel inclined to ever take another cubensis trip again.

I like the sound of that. Just another real weird thing about mushrooms I guess. Its all psilocybin, right? Should effect people in the same way. Well of course different people will get different experiences, but there is some form or fashion of a standard when the chemical makeup is exactly the same every time and never changes. Unless, the psilocybin from the Mexican strain is just ever so slightly different. Cubes seem to have a mean streak.

 

And I get the distinct impression each time, that someone else is there looking at me. Even through me. A couple of times I made odd movements that were not my idea and that I didn't ever intend to make. I hate to put it like this, but its the only way I can describe it. Its like someone was trying out my body to see how it worked. Gets even weirder. It even seemed to want to walk around, and it was very clumsy. Each footstep seemed like a concentrated effort and it could barely balance. Wish I knew what all that was about. I had this impression that the teacher was also teaching someone else or... something. I really have no idea. But I was there to learn and I wasn't going to complain. I was trying to show that I was humble and just let whatever happens, happen.


Edited by bennylava, 09 December 2017 - 05:25 PM.


#14 Samwise

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 06:24 AM

I like the sound of that. Just another real weird thing about mushrooms I guess. Its all psilocybin, right? Should effect people in the same way. Well of course different people will get different experiences, but there is some form or fashion of a standard when the chemical makeup is exactly the same every time and never changes. Unless, the psilocybin from the Mexican strain is just ever so slightly different. Cubes seem to have a mean streak.

 

And I get the distinct impression each time, that someone else is there looking at me. Even through me. A couple of times I made odd movements that were not my idea and that I didn't ever intend to make. I hate to put it like this, but its the only way I can describe it. Its like someone was trying out my body to see how it worked. Gets even weirder. It even seemed to want to walk around, and it was very clumsy. Each footstep seemed like a concentrated effort and it could barely balance. Wish I knew what all that was about. I had this impression that the teacher was also teaching someone else or... something. I really have no idea. But I was there to learn and I wasn't going to complain. I was trying to show that I was humble and just let whatever happens, happen.

 

Well mushrooms aren't just pure psilocybin in isolation, they are living organisms with complex biochemistry, and this varies between species. Secondary metabolites like baeocystin and norbaeocystin likely play a role, but worth noting that psilocybin is derived from serotonin precursors from the amino acid tryptophan that are also present in the mushroom in varying amounts. P. semilanceata has also been found to contain phenethylamine which is known to be psychoactive. I think the presence of these in varying concentrations and proportions may have a subtle modulating effect on the psilocybin experience.

 

In the case of P. cubensis, in comparison to the more potent exotic Psilocybe species, I get the impression due to the larger amounts required to get to an equivalent place...that secondary compounds in the mushrooms in effect dilute the psilocybin, and make for an experience that is more likely to have a body load, be a bit heavier, and more prone to dark episodes or weird alien archetype experiences. The more potent species for me consistently feel purer, cleaner, clearer, more distilled in essence. It is worth noting that the indigenous Mexican groups like the Mazatec who have a better experiential knowledge of mushroom use than anyone else hold the view there are clear differences between species and they employ different species in different contexts for different purposes.

 

Regarding your mushroom-puppet experience, this is a fairly common experience, I've heard the same thing reported by people under ayahuasca. Interesting to note that in the views of the Mazatec, when we ingest a psilocybe mushroom, there is a two way transfer going on, and a union between human and mushroom...we get to experience mushroom consciousness for a time, but the mushroom also gets to experience us for a time. Their view in a sense seems to align with what you experienced.

 

If you ever get round to sampling some other species I'd be really interested to know what you make of them.


Edited by Samwise, 12 December 2017 - 06:29 AM.

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#15 bennylava

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Posted Yesterday, 08:04 PM

 

Well mushrooms aren't just pure psilocybin in isolation, they are living organisms with complex biochemistry, and this varies between species. Secondary metabolites like baeocystin and norbaeocystin likely play a role, but worth noting that psilocybin is derived from serotonin precursors from the amino acid tryptophan that are also present in the mushroom in varying amounts. P. semilanceata has also been found to contain phenethylamine which is known to be psychoactive. I think the presence of these in varying concentrations and proportions may have a subtle modulating effect on the psilocybin experience.

 

In the case of P. cubensis, in comparison to the more potent exotic Psilocybe species, I get the impression due to the larger amounts required to get to an equivalent place...that secondary compounds in the mushrooms in effect dilute the psilocybin, and make for an experience that is more likely to have a body load, be a bit heavier, and more prone to dark episodes or weird alien archetype experiences. The more potent species for me consistently feel purer, cleaner, clearer, more distilled in essence. It is worth noting that the indigenous Mexican groups like the Mazatec who have a better experiential knowledge of mushroom use than anyone else hold the view there are clear differences between species and they employ different species in different contexts for different purposes.

 

Regarding your mushroom-puppet experience, this is a fairly common experience, I've heard the same thing reported by people under ayahuasca. Interesting to note that in the views of the Mazatec, when we ingest a psilocybe mushroom, there is a two way transfer going on, and a union between human and mushroom...we get to experience mushroom consciousness for a time, but the mushroom also gets to experience us for a time. Their view in a sense seems to align with what you experienced.

 

If you ever get round to sampling some other species I'd be really interested to know what you make of them.

 

 

 

Well now that I've learned that there are others that are clearer and cleaner, and some that have been known to have a somewhat gentler hand, I'll be trying those at some point. I go there to learn as a student, not to have the sh*t kicked out of me. Then again, that may be something I have to learn from as well. The lesson with that has become somewhat more clear since the trip. Its something along the lines of learning to control your thoughts. Not letting them just be a whirlwind inside your head that wreaks havok or does whatever else it damn well pleases. Its definitely made me tougher, but as you well know, you certainly don't feel very tough when you're in the middle of it.

 

The puppet thing is definitely weird. It happens to me just about every time I take 2g or more. The first time it ever happened I was definitely... in shock that such a thing ever could happen. But now I've just learn to live with it and I wouldn't try to stop it. I asked about it and it said something like "Only with your permission". Like they'd never do it to someone who didn't want anything to do with that. I don't mind.

 

Which brings up yet even more questions. Obviously fungus is alive, but it doesn't seem to have the same sense of self preservation that we do. You'd think that if we were sharing consciousness with something, then at least part of the message would be "Grow more mushrooms! Spread them everywhere! Make sure we survive!" But I've never gotten anything like that. It occurs to me that the mushrooms and the mycelium (the entire organism) is more akin to someone's technology. Like this is just how they can interact with us, and other than preserving that technology, they really don't care if a bunch of mycelium dies or that mushrooms get eaten instead of getting to spread their spores.


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