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Ziplock / Plastic bag Tek Question


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#1 adrian118

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 01:52 PM

Gonna start a bunch of LW seed and wanted to try this bagged tek with a portion of them. 

 

Was wondering if any has done this using 4" terra cotta pots before?

 

Thoughts?



#2 Spooner

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 02:41 PM

Bagging L.w. seeds has been the best tec by far for me.  I tend to get over 80% germination because the constant high humidity allows the slow sprouters to join the young seedlings even  if it takes them a few weeks longer.  I tend to leave them bagged for 4-6 months, giving them air exchange every week or two.

 

4 inch pots are ok, but the seedlings won't really need more than 1/2 inch of soil for the first year of their life.


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#3 adrian118

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 03:29 PM

Thanks Spooner.

 

My hope with using the terra cotta is that i can hard grow them in these pots for a couple years or so. At least a while after they have come out of the humidity environment. 

 

I have about 200 seeds from koehres... i was thinking i would sow 25 in each of the 4" pots. Of which i have 4. In half of these I was thinking of doing a purely mineral soil mix, the other half I will add some cactus soil. Then i have two Jiffy trays where i will be sowing 50 to each, probably with a soil mix of cactus soil plus mineral amendments, pumice, sand, gravel.

 

I was gonna start a separate 'grow log' for this as a record. Ill have lots more questions and things to share. Like soil mix choices , lighting, etc. I plan to try a few different approaches.



#4 Spooner

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 04:04 PM

Koehres is a very good seed source.

 

My L.w. have thrived in both loam and sand mixes and both mixes seem to benefit from worm casings, but cacti are tough and grow on any well draining soil.

 

For a good Cactus mix, approximate proportions by volume I include most of the following;
1 washed coarse play sand
1 bird gravel from pet store, or crushed lava rock pumice
1 crushed egg shells, oyster, clam, mussel whatever
1 worm casings
1 commercial cactus potting soil, loam not peat
1 coir if I have a bit handy
1 pearlite
1 garden dirt sifted


Edited by Spooner, 10 April 2018 - 04:08 PM.

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#5 Skywatcher

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 04:24 PM

Adding a source of lime like Spooners recipe with the crushed oyster or other shells is a perfect solution to providing the limey soil that peyote grows in naturally. 

If I am germinating seeds to repot when they get stable, I use a shallow small container with a sandy fine gritty mix that is not particularly nutrient complete, as they will not be in that long. I have also done well long term, with pots they can stay in for 5 years that is a complete mix with loam and castings, and sowed sparser. I do think I see better germination in the shallow sandy mix, but there will be some loss expected as they start to round out. I may not get as many seeds sprouting in a bigger pot with the nutritionally complete mix, but the ones that do seem to grow very well.

 

I have only done the bag tek once, but it seemed to work well. I personally prefer a long term environment like the 10 gal fish tank with heat mats and a gravel layer on the bottom to diffuse the heat and maintain a humidity level to my liking. I usually let them grow in that environment for at least 3 or 4 months, and have kept them as long as 6 months in there.


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#6 DualWieldRake

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 02:43 AM

Why add lime? It's not what cacti like


Edited by DualWieldRake, 11 April 2018 - 02:44 AM.

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#7 Spooner

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 03:38 AM

The fish tank seems equivalent to bagging for humidity control, if you have one available.  Cool idea!

I also agree with the heat mat and diffuse heat.  My germination rate improved when I was able to keep the soil above 85f without drying out the soil.

 

My L.w. cactus seem to like shells crushed down to sand particle size, though I have not tested to see if they grow equally well when denied this addition.  Perhaps it only makes a difference in neutralizing acidic water after many years, but I learned from Wildedibles and Spanishfly, who both recommended shells.  It is not aggressive like powdered lime would be, it is there for the long haul and assists in good drainage so I recommend it to folks, not as a requirement but as something that I have personally had great success using.


Edited by Spooner, 11 April 2018 - 03:50 AM.

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#8 Skywatcher

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 08:14 AM

The native soil where peyote grows, is limey. Whether or not this is of benefit to the peyote and how, has not been studied to my knowledge. Certainly the majority of other cactus species do not require it. I personally like to provide as close to natural soil composition as possible.

It has been shown that Aztekium Ritteri only grows in a very high gypsum content soil, in limited areas, so I conclude that the natural soil composition a plant seeks out and lives in has some benefit to that species.

I would rather provide the lime than deprive it, although I have seen my own peyotes seem to grow fine in soil lacking the lime content.

 

I received my first soil recipe from Anne Zapf at Peyote Way, and she originally told me to add a lime source. I have no reason to question the tutelage of the people who helped me change my life, so many years ago now. I would believe the lime content has some bearing on the plants ability to make certain alkaloids. Even though I do not plan to eat my cactus, I like them to be as naturally complete as in nature. Growing and caring for these cactus is for me a spiritual need and a way to give back.


Edited by Skywatcher, 11 April 2018 - 08:59 AM.

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#9 Spooner

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 10:25 AM

Anne Zapf has certainly been involved in L.w. propagation on a scale that no other residents of the US are likely to approach, considering the illegalities involved for both the growing and distribution of the plants.  The special religious exemption that allows the Peyote Way Church to operate puts them in a unique position.  It is not surprising that Anne recommends shells as a soil amendment, but to my knowledge there are no specific scientific studies attempting to quantify the contribution of shells to the growth of these particular cacti.  I consider shells, like worm casings to be a beneficial amendment to productive cactus soil even though it may be entirely possible to grow cacti in an artificial environment with no soil at all. Perhaps in my next lifetime I will try that approach, but for now I am content mimicking what has proven to be successful.

 

For anyone seeking to gain a deeper understanding of the relationship between Peyote and Humans, The Peyote Way Church is a great resource, and Anne is a very knowledgeable, and helpful contact.


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#10 DualWieldRake

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 11:04 AM

The native soil where peyote grows, is limey. Whether or not this is of benefit to the peyote and how, has not been studied to my knowledge. Certainly the majority of other cactus species do not require it. I personally like to provide as close to natural soil composition as possible.

It has been shown that Aztekium Ritteri only grows in a very high gypsum content soil, in limited areas, so I conclude that the natural soil composition a plant seeks out and lives in has some benefit to that species.

I would rather provide the lime than deprive it, although I have seen my own peyotes seem to grow fine in soil lacking the lime content.

 

I received my first soil recipe from Anne Zapf at Peyote Way, and she originally told me to add a lime source. I have no reason to question the tutelage of the people who helped me change my life, so many years ago now. I would believe the lime content has some bearing on the plants ability to make certain alkaloids. Even though I do not plan to eat my cactus, I like them to be as naturally complete as in nature. Growing and caring for these cactus is for me a spiritual need and a way to give back.

 

The only reason lime i see how lime could be beneficial is from a competative standpoint, especially other plants but perhaps microbes.

In general i think you won't be doing your average potted plant much favor adding lime (including Aztekium ritteri)


Edited by DualWieldRake, 11 April 2018 - 11:05 AM.


#11 Skywatcher

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 01:48 PM

The only reason lime i see how lime could be beneficial is from a competative standpoint, especially other plants but perhaps microbes.

In general i think you won't be doing your average potted plant much favor adding lime (including Aztekium ritteri)

 

I would not, and do not add lime to the soil for anything but the peyotes. I have an aztekium ritteri, 15 years old, and it has native gypsum from a local outcropping added, not lime. Competition with other plants and cacti is very much a possible advantage the peyote has for growing in a limey soil. 

Adding it or not is certainly a choice you can make for your own cacti. I will choose to follow the advice of IMO very reputable people, with a long track record of success who have a relationship with the sacred cactus as do I.



#12 adrian118

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 01:58 PM

On the topic of lime/shells etc.

 

I have some sand from the pet store meant for use in a reptile habitat. Its labeled as 'calcium sand'. I was wondering if this is any different than 

regular sand box or beach sand.

 

Also, I think I read some where that calcium and other minerals, coming from stones or sand, may not actually add to available nutes for the plant.



#13 Skywatcher

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 02:12 PM

On the topic of lime/shells etc.

 

I have some sand from the pet store meant for use in a reptile habitat. Its labeled as 'calcium sand'. I was wondering if this is any different than 

regular sand box or beach sand.

It is most definitely not the same as regular sand. It is almost pure calcium carbonate. Sand is mostly silica and pulverized rock, with beach sand having more ground coral and shell. 

I don't think I would choose to use the calcium sand for plants. It has some concerns for reptiles as well.

I buy bird oyster shell at the pet store and grind it to add to my peyote cactus soil mix.

 

https://www.herpcent...m-sand-dangers/


Edited by Skywatcher, 11 April 2018 - 02:14 PM.

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#14 adrian118

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Posted 11 April 2018 - 05:04 PM

Ok, Glad I asked.

 

I have already mixed this into a couple soil mixes so far. The seeds sowed in that seem OK.  I also have a batch of bridgesii seedlings growing on a thin top layer of the calcium sand right now. They seem to be doing fine so far at least. I can definitely use a different sand for my next sowing. 


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