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1on1off acid/ 1on1off psilocybine


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#1 Buitensporig

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:18 AM

Hi guys!

So I’ve been microdosing for 2 full months now on psilocybine following the 1on 2 off schedule advised by the dr. Fadiman with very positive effects.
And have an idea of temporarily upping the ‘dose’ to a 1on acid 1off-1on psilocybine 1off schedule.

Any thoughts on this?
Anyone with expirence doing this or smth similar?
I can imagine it might become exhausting after a period of time to be ,kind of, in overdrive mode for to long...

#2 Coopdog

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 03:26 AM

Not trying to harsh anything that has been working for you, but got to say that this is not how these things are best used, but then who the hell am I to say so. It's all very subjective, and I guess if this has been helping you then more power to you. The LSD part could be problematic as supply is sketchy and expensive, and developing a habit in this regard might prove to not be for the best. I have hard good things about microdosing mushrooms, and have a friend who uses them that way for migraine headaches with great success. Just my two cents worth


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#3 Buitensporig

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 04:09 AM

Hi coopdog,
In my parts of the world there is no problem finding a steady supply of low cost , high quality acid
And the psilocybine I’m already ingesting in the form of self grown magic mushrooms...
Psychedelics have never been habit forming for me in any kind of way so this is smth I don’t fear at all
The trick with microdosing is to ingest a dose so low one does not notice the effects(so the chance of habit/dependence is even lower) but the brain still gets the positive benefits of a drug...a interesting thing you might like to look into :)
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#4 Cuboid

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 05:18 AM

Microdosing every other day isn't recommended in any of the books or articles that I've read on the subject.
You risk burnout if nothing else. Try it but limit the protocol to just 30 days maybe?
Your mileage may vary. I'm no expert.
Kind regards,
Cuboid.
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#5 raymycoto

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Posted 21 June 2018 - 08:34 PM

I am very excited about many aspects of MD and indeed it has proven itself anecdotally again and again. So wonderful that this non harmful, non-addictive and therapeutic class of drugs has founded this sort of therapy.

 

However, I must say that I would welcome any experimentation into other dosing protocols. Make one up and see what happens. Although it's tough to get anything but an opinion when N=1 and you are both the experimenter and the one subject.

 

The on-off-off protocol seems arbitrary albeit a decent one. How was this arrived at? I have no clue. There is a dosing interval for all sorts of drugs.

 

What is the best:

  • dose
  • time of day for dose
  • dose interval

 

Some thoughts:

  • Is the best interval for psylocibin 72 hrs?
  • Is the best dose always a sub perceptible one? Some recommended psychoactive drug doses (other drug classes) are subperceptible (antidepressants) while some are clearly not (opiates, benzodiazepines) .
  • How about half a sub perceptible dose Q48 hrs or daily or twice daily then one or two days off?
  • Or a double dose Q96 hrs? How about timing of dosing?
  • Take with food or without? A double dose becomes sub perceptible if taken with a large meal. How about that as an option? Or a small dose in the morning then repeat with meals then two days off? All sub perceptible.
  • Or how about a dose at bedtime or a time of day varying dose?
  • Or two heavy days then the rest of the week off?
  • How about mixing some of these patterns with fasting or exercise or mindfulness protocols?

Why do we think any of these would not be as good or better? If they stay sub percep with a larger loading dose, then would the days off be even better?

 

Our body does respond favorably to varying states of input / stimulation with respect to steady states thus allowing for a clearing of the drug and perhaps readjustment of receptor sensitivity does make some sense. However, few drugs are taken / marketed to be used in that way. But I do have a feeling that low psychedelics may have there best effect in some fashion of on-off usage.

 

As noted above, the risk of dependence or addiction is pretty much slim to none as this does not seem to happen in either a physical or psychological way, especially with someone who has the incentive / insight to pursue such beneficial effects of this class of drugs. Clearly one could not say the same for other drug classes such as opiates or amphetamines.

 

I don't want to imply any disrespect for the on-off-off regimen. I'm so glad it's out there so that persons may start somewhere to establish this new wave of therapeutic psychedelic drug use. I just want to say that you should be aware of the lack of discussion of any other established variant of microdosing.

 

Experiment! What do you think? I don't perceive any risk other than a variation in the effectiveness, which is what you are considering.

 

What do you think, soli? @soliver

 

Cheers


Edited by raymycoto, 21 June 2018 - 08:37 PM.

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#6 cosmicsistar

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 08:33 AM

I microdose regularly but it is my understanding that you take it for 30 days, Days 1 and 4, and then stop for 30 days. I think you do build up a tolerance to the mushrooms and that is why it is recommended to take a break. I am also curious to know if you do anything in the ways of integration or measuring your results i.e. survey etc. I measure my mood, energy, productivity/creativity and sleep patterns. 


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#7 cosmicsistar

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 08:40 AM

I am very excited about many aspects of MD and indeed it has proven itself anecdotally again and again. So wonderful that this non harmful, non-addictive and therapeutic class of drugs has founded this sort of therapy.

 

However, I must say that I would welcome any experimentation into other dosing protocols. Make one up and see what happens. Although it's tough to get anything but an opinion when N=1 and you are both the experimenter and the one subject.

 

The on-off-off protocol seems arbitrary albeit a decent one. How was this arrived at? I have no clue. There is a dosing interval for all sorts of drugs.

 

What is the best:

  • dose
  • time of day for dose
  • dose interval

 

Some thoughts:

  • Is the best interval for psylocibin 72 hrs?
  • Is the best dose always a sub perceptible one? Some recommended psychoactive drug doses (other drug classes) are subperceptible (antidepressants) while some are clearly not (opiates, benzodiazepines) .
  • How about half a sub perceptible dose Q48 hrs or daily or twice daily then one or two days off?
  • Or a double dose Q96 hrs? How about timing of dosing?
  • Take with food or without? A double dose becomes sub perceptible if taken with a large meal. How about that as an option? Or a small dose in the morning then repeat with meals then two days off? All sub perceptible.
  • Or how about a dose at bedtime or a time of day varying dose?
  • Or two heavy days then the rest of the week off?
  • How about mixing some of these patterns with fasting or exercise or mindfulness protocols?

Why do we think any of these would not be as good or better? If they stay sub percep with a larger loading dose, then would the days off be even better?

 

Our body does respond favorably to varying states of input / stimulation with respect to steady states thus allowing for a clearing of the drug and perhaps readjustment of receptor sensitivity does make some sense. However, few drugs are taken / marketed to be used in that way. But I do have a feeling that low psychedelics may have there best effect in some fashion of on-off usage.

 

As noted above, the risk of dependence or addiction is pretty much slim to none as this does not seem to happen in either a physical or psychological way, especially with someone who has the incentive / insight to pursue such beneficial effects of this class of drugs. Clearly one could not say the same for other drug classes such as opiates or amphetamines.

 

I don't want to imply any disrespect for the on-off-off regimen. I'm so glad it's out there so that persons may start somewhere to establish this new wave of therapeutic psychedelic drug use. I just want to say that you should be aware of the lack of discussion of any other established variant of microdosing.

 

Experiment! What do you think? I don't perceive any risk other than a variation in the effectiveness, which is what you are considering.

 

What do you think, soli? @soliver

 

Cheers

I really loved the questions you are asking and your thought process regarding MD.

 

There is scientific evidence out there that is not anecdotal in nature for microdosing of LSD and Psilocybin. This website is a great start and where I learned a lot about the potential for these allies as medicine. http://www.maps.org 


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#8 Buitensporig

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 05:20 PM

Microdosing every other day isn't recommended in any of the books or articles that I've read on the subject.
You risk burnout if nothing else. Try it but limit the protocol to just 30 days maybe?
Your mileage may vary. I'm no expert.
Kind regards,
Cuboid.

I know. i didnt really find a recommendation ether  but...also not really an proper explanation to why...
I can imagine that is because a 1on/1off protocol might build a tolerance not leaving the body enough time to clear the system of the substance/experience.
Its one of the reasons why i would like to try a 1on/1off protocol but switch the substance with every dose day.

 

brain on psilo.jpg brain on lsd.jpg

 

to get more of these effects without the tolerance build up of doing 1on/1off on only lsd or psilocybine

 

As you say, a risk of burn out has crossed my mind...but if one properly listens (one thing i find is that microdosing brings me back into touch with myself, both in the body and the mind) over exhaustion would be spotted soon enough and the protocol can be changed as, when and how needed.

 

I am very excited about many aspects of MD and indeed it has proven itself anecdotally again and again. So wonderful that this non harmful, non-addictive and therapeutic class of drugs has founded this sort of therapy.

 

However, I must say that I would welcome any experimentation into other dosing protocols. Make one up and see what happens. Although it's tough to get anything but an opinion when N=1 and you are both the experimenter and the one subject.

 

The on-off-off protocol seems arbitrary albeit a decent one. How was this arrived at? I have no clue. There is a dosing interval for all sorts of drugs.

 

What is the best:

  • dose
  • time of day for dose
  • dose interval

 

Some thoughts:

  • Is the best interval for psylocibin 72 hrs?
  • Is the best dose always a sub perceptible one? Some recommended psychoactive drug doses (other drug classes) are subperceptible (antidepressants) while some are clearly not (opiates, benzodiazepines) .
  • How about half a sub perceptible dose Q48 hrs or daily or twice daily then one or two days off?
  • Or a double dose Q96 hrs? How about timing of dosing?
  • Take with food or without? A double dose becomes sub perceptible if taken with a large meal. How about that as an option? Or a small dose in the morning then repeat with meals then two days off? All sub perceptible.
  • Or how about a dose at bedtime or a time of day varying dose?
  • Or two heavy days then the rest of the week off?
  • How about mixing some of these patterns with fasting or exercise or mindfulness protocols?

Why do we think any of these would not be as good or better? If they stay sub percep with a larger loading dose, then would the days off be even better?

 

Our body does respond favorably to varying states of input / stimulation with respect to steady states thus allowing for a clearing of the drug and perhaps readjustment of receptor sensitivity does make some sense. However, few drugs are taken / marketed to be used in that way. But I do have a feeling that low psychedelics may have there best effect in some fashion of on-off usage.

 

As noted above, the risk of dependence or addiction is pretty much slim to none as this does not seem to happen in either a physical or psychological way, especially with someone who has the incentive / insight to pursue such beneficial effects of this class of drugs. Clearly one could not say the same for other drug classes such as opiates or amphetamines.

 

I don't want to imply any disrespect for the on-off-off regimen. I'm so glad it's out there so that persons may start somewhere to establish this new wave of therapeutic psychedelic drug use. I just want to say that you should be aware of the lack of discussion of any other established variant of microdosing.

 

Experiment! What do you think? I don't perceive any risk other than a variation in the effectiveness, which is what you are considering.

 

What do you think, soli? @soliver

 

Cheers

 

exactly! most of the anecdotal `research´ is of people following Dr. Feidman´s suggested protocol but i find little to no info on people actually semi-scientifically finding/searching perfection in the protocol.

 

I microdose regularly but it is my understanding that you take it for 30 days, Days 1 and 4, and then stop for 30 days. I think you do build up a tolerance to the mushrooms and that is why it is recommended to take a break. I am also curious to know if you do anything in the ways of integration or measuring your results i.e. survey etc. I measure my mood, energy, productivity/creativity and sleep patterns. 

as far as i know from my personal experience even 60days of on-off-off protocol does not build a tolerance (i was slightly trippy on my way to work today, i dose in dried small cut mushrooms and must have had a little extra this morning somehow).

 

I do keep really good track of how i feel. mood, energy etc. but don´t go so far as to keep a log or smth like this.
I have quit drinking alcohol one week prior to starting my MD (I have been a very heavy drug (ab)user and have gone to bed completely wasted more often than sober for the biggest part of life)
I realize in am not capable of 100% pointing the how and what i feel and do to the MD or the sobriety or both.
Its more like a personal exploration,than a scientific one. and a pretty damn good one so far  :thumbs_up2:

 

love!


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#9 Cuboid

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 06:02 PM

I'm not convinced alternating LSD and Psilocybin will avoid tolerance build up - they both act on substantially the same 5HT receptors in the brain after all. Please test it and report back ;)
Look after yourself though - beware the burnout.
Another thought I keep having is, does it matter if you build a tolerance anyways? Just because it's getting harder to trip balls doesn't mean the microdose isn't therapeutic anymore, does it? I haven't seen a study that backs up the assumption.

And if you want to avoid accidentally getting trippy when just meaning to μ-dose then I'd recommend grinding your shrooms to a pretty fine powder to homogenise the batch, then weigh out your 200mg or whatever you've settled on as sub perceptual to you. I haven't found the right μ-dose for me yet, complicated by recent tapering off of an SSRI. Recently took 250mg dry cubes and had some mild spatial distortion i.e. room looking longer/wider than usual, objects appearing more distant than usual etc. - it was subtle but there. I'll back it off to 200mg tomorrow and see what happens. I also need to work on my intentions. Currently experimenting to find the right dose but haven't really focused on what I'm wanting to get out of it.

Edited by Cuboid, 22 June 2018 - 06:11 PM.

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#10 bezevo

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Posted 22 June 2018 - 07:07 PM

Interesting stuff Micro-Dosing  the last two books i read both advocated 5 days on two days of for Micro-Dosing with mushrooms .

Now amounts/dosages varied depending on type of mushroom and per individual.

i recently watched Joe Rogans   complete interview with Michael Pollan very interesting.

i bought his new book about Micro Dosing called  How To Change Your Mind .

 

now to find time to read


Edited by bezevo, 22 June 2018 - 08:01 PM.

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#11 Buitensporig

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 04:07 AM

Interesting stuff Micro-Dosing  the last two books i read both advocated 5 days on two days of for Micro-Dosing with mushrooms .
Now amounts/dosages varied depending on type of mushroom and per individual.
i recently watched Joe Rogans   complete interview with Michael Pollan very interesting.
i bought his new book about Micro Dosing called  How To Change Your Mind .
 
now to find time to read

Would you like to share the name of those books, I want to start reading some more stuff on this...to go a littlebit deeper...

#12 Buitensporig

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 08:09 AM

I'm not convinced alternating LSD and Psilocybin will avoid tolerance build up - they both act on substantially the same 5HT receptors in the brain after all. Please test it and report back ;)
Look after yourself though - beware the burnout.
Another thought I keep having is, does it matter if you build a tolerance anyways? Just because it's getting harder to trip balls doesn't mean the microdose isn't therapeutic anymore, does it? I haven't seen a study that backs up the assumption.

And if you want to avoid accidentally getting trippy when just meaning to μ-dose then I'd recommend grinding your shrooms to a pretty fine powder to homogenise the batch, then weigh out your 200mg or whatever you've settled on as sub perceptual to you. I haven't found the right μ-dose for me yet, complicated by recent tapering off of an SSRI. Recently took 250mg dry cubes and had some mild spatial distortion i.e. room looking longer/wider than usual, objects appearing more distant than usual etc. - it was subtle but there. I'll back it off to 200mg tomorrow and see what happens. I also need to work on my intentions. Currently experimenting to find the right dose but haven't really focused on what I'm wanting to get out of it.

I was thinking the same Cuboid, i guess that as long as you leave some time in between for the brain recover (so no 7-day's-on schedule) and keep checking in with yourself how you're doing a tolerance  build up doesn't necessarily be a bad thing.

As I hear now that a 5on-2off protocol is also advised in books (and in the Joe Rogan-Paul Stamets podcast Paul also advises at least 2 day's off a week) I guess that the personal best protocol and substance used for MD-ing is dependent on what one ones goals are for going down the MD road.

What I remember form my times taking high dose psychedelics is that LSD is more of a creativity boosting drug where psilocybine is more a (self)reflecting expirience

I will start experimenting with different schedules from now  on and use this topic to monitor and share my findings.

Starting tomorrow I am switching to a 5day on-2off protocol Psilocybine (from the on-off-off I am on now)

Keep you guy's posted :)
oh and tnx for the grinding advice! ill be making capsules soon :)


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#13 bezevo

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 01:14 PM

ok  Buitensporig i will  l Look  for  those title one was by  Paul Austin the guy behind The Third Wave .i sugest you look that up sign up  for  Pauls news letter pod casts ect .

 

 

https://thethirdwave.co/

 

https://thethirdwave.co/psychedelics/

 

https://www.amazon.c...0f0472f37bf6fbe


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#14 Buitensporig

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 01:47 PM

So before monitoring the new schedule i thought it might be interesting to reflect a little bit on my MD experience so far.
As mentioned somewhere above its hard for me to pinpoint the effects i have been having to the microdosing alone. This because I've quit my alcohol consumption a week prior to starting with the 1on-2off psilocybine schedule..anyway...ill just start writing stuff down i'v noticed...

It feels very strongly that i have gotten some power back, more in the sense of mental strengt than physical. I notice this in various ways but the best way to describe it is more connected to myself. I'm more in tune with my natural rhythm, for example going to sleep when tired.

But also on a social level this expresses itself, I didn't go to a birthday party i was expected on saturday for the simple reason of "I don't feel like"( I couldn't bring up the social energy needed for such an event and preferred to tend to my mushrooms and be alone for the night) I also didn't pull a sicky....I just wrote a message saying exactly that and wished them an fun night.

 

I feel I am getting much less tolerant of people I do not have or feel a connection with, without losing the capability to respectfully decline the sharing of energy. Or even sharing small portions, but i feel much more aware of the point were it gets to much and its my time to move on (in short but also long term relationships) (if that makes sense?).

 

My thoughts and feelings make morse sense to me, they feel more reflected...more like they are truly mine. And i feel more self-esteem sharing them also.

 

I feel that the damage done by trying to conform to society (where a lot of my excessive drug and alcohol (ab)use came from also) is getting slowly reversed, as wel as a power awakening inside of me to deal with the day to day societal bullshit without the uncontrollable urge to drink my face off at the end of a day.

 

I have more energy to start and than also finish things. Cleaning a place where i have been doing mushroom things for example(always an explosion of coffee, rye, cardboard and what not) or simply doing the dishes straight after diner.

 

There is more general focus. I finish a lot of day's with making a to do list for the next day. and have one for longer term things aswel.

 

I am exercising every morning and evening (light bodyweight exercises) because next to feeling mentally weak i have been feeling physically weak also for a long period of time but always was to wasted or hungover to actually do smth about it...

 

well i think i'll leave it at that for now...it's a pretty impressive list if you ask me, and for me these effects have a big antidepressant (side)effect :)

 

more on the subject and if an how changing the schedule effects me later :)


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#15 Buitensporig

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 01:55 PM

ok  Buitensporig i will  l Look  for  those title one was by  Paul Austin the guy behind The Third Wave .i sugest you look that up sign up  for  Pauls news letter pod casts ect .

 

 

https://thethirdwave.co/

 

https://thethirdwave.co/psychedelics/

 

https://www.amazon.c...0f0472f37bf6fbe

tnx so much!! good stuff :)



#16 raymycoto

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Posted 24 June 2018 - 04:39 PM

Buiten...

 

Thanks for sharing these insights and milestones. These may help someone who is reading. But I'm particularly glad that you have seen progress with MD. As you have probably figured out, it's not about the MD drug, it's hope, it's mindfulness, it's a glimpse of what your life can really be, what you really deserve and are finally seeking.

 

WOW, getting into consistent exercise and ditching alcohol! Even one of those would be a tremendous improvement!!!

 

Every day is a gift and a chance to move incrementally to the 'upper right corner of the graph'. You are learning. Compare yourself not to others or society or other nonsense we are all flooded with.

 

The only person it makes sense to compare yourself with tomorrow is yourself today. What small change could you and would you make to move yourself in that direction. I'm talking about direction / life etc as if it is a scalar and not the complex vector that it really is. But you get the idea. There is random and statistical noise to overcome but it sounds like you know what changes to make.

 

And remember that the changes are all small. We cannot do large things. Only small moves in the right direction will add up to a notable change. Conversely remember that large screw-ups don't happen at once. They are due to incremental and minuscule neglect of small things you could do.

 

OK, enough rambling . . . keep us informed.


Edited by raymycoto, 24 June 2018 - 08:06 PM.

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#17 Buitensporig

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 06:46 PM

So finally a little review off me changing from a 1on2off MD schedule to a 5on2off

I am having the feeling that this is working better for me than the previous schedule...it’s hard to explain exactly why but I guess that I feel like I am not going back to ‘baseline’ all the time
(day one good, second day still doing pretty good but day three more down and insecure and lower self image and self esteem)
but actually moving up in the ‘chart’ closer to the right corner with every day

Its like the neuro-plasticity is starting to really make the connections...
This can have two reasons:

1. I have been micro-dosing for a longer time now and that is why the connections are now properly starting to establish
2. The 5days on in a row gives the brain more time/power/juice to actually establish the pathways and new connection

I feel that there was and still is a lot of work to be done ‘re-wiring’ me and that I am now coming closer and closer to a preferred self...

I am frequently experiencing the ability to reflect on situations in 3 view-points
Me, the other person/people(empathy) and a overall view of the situation

I am certain that it is not changing me as the person I am but I feel like it is speeding up a ‘learning’ process that I feel I have neglected for the past 18 years or so

I am not my past anymore and I am not comparing myself so much anymore with a future self or someone I thought I should be or become (I am now, whatever that means in that moment)
And with that knowledge the voice of my low self image and insecurity doesn’t really have a lot to tell anymore than to enjoy the growing and life in general...

Next to this I am experiencing a big boost in creativity and drive to create
So I’ll close this with a picture of a walrus that I drew :p0F8D88E4-E21C-4844-8E67-C621CF659BBE.jpeg

#18 Buitensporig

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 06:48 PM

Ha! Its upside down...but you get the point :)

#19 Buitensporig

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Posted 16 July 2018 - 06:52 PM

Buiten...
 
Thanks for sharing these insights and milestones. These may help someone who is reading. But I'm particularly glad that you have seen progress with MD. As you have probably figured out, it's not about the MD drug, it's hope, it's mindfulness, it's a glimpse of what your life can really be, what you really deserve and are finally seeking.
 
WOW, getting into consistent exercise and ditching alcohol! Even one of those would be a tremendous improvement!!!
 
Every day is a gift and a chance to move incrementally to the 'upper right corner of the graph'. You are learning. Compare yourself not to others or society or other nonsense we are all flooded with.
 
The only person it makes sense to compare yourself with tomorrow is yourself today. What small change could you and would you make to move yourself in that direction. I'm talking about direction / life etc as if it is a scalar and not the complex vector that it really is. But you get the idea. There is random and statistical noise to overcome but it sounds like you know what changes to make.
 
And remember that the changes are all small. We cannot do large things. Only small moves in the right direction will add up to a notable change. Conversely remember that large screw-ups don't happen at once. They are due to incremental and minuscule neglect of small things you could do.
 
OK, enough rambling . . . keep us informed.


Thanks for your words b.t.w...reading them back makes me realize they helped me with some of my realizations and the process
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#20 glosseyed

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 09:33 PM

I personally have seen the incredible benefits of MDing psilocybin. I've been on antidepressants for close to 20 years, and in a matter or two months weened myself off completely while microdosing. I started with .1g, and eventually worked my way up to .2g after a few weeks. Everything I had heard about coming off of antidepressants scared me, but I had no ill effects, it was actually a rather comfortable transition. 6 months later, I still feel fine without the use of antidepressants. I know it isn't a cure-all, but it certainly helped me to live a better, more comfortable life.
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