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Trichocereus pachanoi - need experienced people's advice


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#1 coleman318

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 01:16 PM

I purchased 10 lbs of Trichocereus pachanoi from Cactus Kate. I read mixed things, mostly though I heard even though his identifications can be off or misleading, that his cacti in general seems to be above average potency. Now the place I was reading this I think they were talking about his peruvianus being an cuzcoenis instead but the cuzcoenis is still good potency he claimed.

Now I got my pachanoi and I read a lot about how the Predominant Cultivar is not potent whatsoever. I think this is the Predominant Cultivar, it's funny I thought everyone through around the word PC because it was a good thing not a bad thing =P

Anyway I took pictures. This cactus looks much better than the pachanoi my friend received from a different vendor.

Here are the pictures:



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Anyone here anything about cactus Kate's (Zircon06) - ebay username's cacti or pachanoi specifically?

Also this cactus is relatively dark green my friends looks like this, which is a lot lighter:

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He got only 5 pounds and his much be not as thick. He is planning on eating all 5 pounds by himself he is under the impression by what he read that the vendors product is weak.

I'm just curious the pictures above of the ones I received, do you they look like PC pachanoi?

#2 coleman318

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 03:42 PM

Unfortunately from what I read from Trout and his pdf on "pachanot" I am closer to thinking this is "pc". All the Pachanoi's that are true seem to have more rounded bodies less concave between each rib and those sharp razor cutbacks between the aeroles needs to be more rounded than zig zag. I hear BBB has good bridgesii so I emailed them trying to find out how to aquire cuttings through them. I can't see a way to add to cart like the seedlings can, I assume I need to reach out for the big guys.

Even if this is pc pachanoi, if i follow 69ron's tek he claims it is mescaline acetate in the end which is more of a wide spectrum than the HCL? I assume there is ways to isolate mescaline from the other alkaloids even if it's mescaline acetate instead of mescaline HCL? I was reading different alkaloids are pulled out at different PH levels? Is this correct?

With a pc pachanoi if I do an extraction tek from 3750grams of fresh cactus how much mescaline hcl or mescaline acetate would be considered for this weak "pc"? I hear pc is extremely bitter but that's not necessarily a indicator for mescaline but alkaloids in general. So I guess I am worried about following 69ron's tek and ending up with "mescaline acetate" that is actually 90% other alkaloids and 10% mescaline. Then the 500-800mg dose I am looking to take may only be 50-100mg of mescaline and the rest other stuff.

Can anyone provide some light on this?

Edited by coleman318, 25 September 2018 - 03:50 PM.


#3 pharmer

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 05:17 PM

assume 1 percent mesc when you begin the extraction. do a good thorough extraction and do the math after

 

There's room for variation among columns, growing conditions, etc so anybody who has been doing cactus stuff for a while assumes nothing about PC Pach but that there's an upper limit of 3 percent above which nothing species goes or it's a freak to be treasured like gold.

 

There's a lot of information floating around, constantly regurgitated without thought, some is true some is false and some is somewhere in between - but regurgitated by people who don't know. By now it's all urban myth.

 

YOU will have to do the work on your pile of columns to find out.

 

Then, guess what? If you don't grow them out and just buy new ones you have to do it all over again. And if you do grow them out, and then process them only to find out they're weak then you're stuck with weak ones.

 

Want some advice? Do what you want with these and next time you buy get Bridgesii. You'll thank me later.


Edited by pharmer, 25 September 2018 - 05:19 PM.

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#4 coleman318

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 05:35 PM

BBB has said to have decent bridgesii I emailed them to find out how to order since it's not so direct on their site. Any advice buying cuts through BBB? I am assuming 1% from dried cactus not fresh. So the amount of bullshit out there is hard to go by even if this looks like PC? I hear domesticated Pachanoi and cactus in general look different much different than if it grew in the wild. But i have seen Irish lion's tea tek and I'm just not sure because of how nasty the liquid seems but I guess that's what I have to do to experience the cactus if I don't do extraction.

I'm going to PM with further questions

#5 coleman318

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 05:56 PM

So tell me if I am doing the math right. 1% seems like a generous amount as I have heard 0.06-1.4% from dried pachanoi.

I have roughly 12 pounds of cactus. I assume I will be saving one cutting to plant, so that leaves me with roughly 3750 grams wet of unknown San Pedro cultivar (expecting it to be PC(pachanot).

3750g wet x 0.065 (dry weight conversion) = 243.75 grams dried.

1% mescaline per dried gram would equal 2.44 grams roughly from the roughly 10 pounds of San Pedro. This obviously is extreme yield. I think I would be looking more at 0.1% if it's what I think it is, which would be 244mg from 10lbs of San Pedro. Which would be a very entry level dose, I have no mescaline experience but I do take mushrooms fairly often usually eating 4-7 grams at a time.

This San Pedro does look very beautiful and so I hope it has slightly higher content then average pc pachanoi, meaning if I can squeeze out another 200-400mg I would be happy I plan on taking about 750mg mescaline acetate or mescaline HCL if given the opportunity. I'm tired of not getting slapped in the face by the mushrooms I have been dosing. Even if I am not in the most ideal mindset or just chilling at home, eating 6-8 grams of recently harvested cubensis should smack you across the head pretty fucking hard from what I remember. Either I am not extracting all the alkaloids either too little water or not enough pulls to get it all out.
I like seeing geometrical patterns on walls and peoples faces and that on fire feeling of just pure electricity and euphoria. Being able to have colorful closed and open eyed visuals. Things taking on a cartoon like appearance. Conversing with people feeling like being on a sitcom television set.

All these things I have been longing for and people around me tell me your expectations are too high. Mushrooms are supposed to be go with the flow and relaxing. Which is true to an extent, but I have been butt raped by mushrooms before on two different occasions and guess what I didn't make tea I just ate them straight up. So I will have to make a new post about my tea method and see if anyone can make suggestions on doing better or point out why I am not getting the experience I desire.


Okay side note... I was looking at the cuttings on his website and they look exactly like what he was showing. Now his "older specimens" that the cuttings are supposed to be coming from looks way more legit, sunken aeroles, much darker spines, less pronounced zig zags between the ridges. The flower hairs and fruit hairs looked both black and white, which could just be sunlight changing the color.

Edited by coleman318, 25 September 2018 - 09:42 PM.


#6 coleman318

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Posted 28 September 2018 - 10:16 AM

Need some help with indoor grow lights in winter and cacti in general. So I bought pachanoi 'LER' and bridgesii 'Lee' from a reliable vendor. I have a grow light in my garage which I plan on adding a vertical light for the sides to provide more light. But normally people just put their cactus on the shelf for the winter and pot in spring (hoping roots sprouted by then). But since I am in a garage away from freezing weather and getting a small heater for the area and I get enough light currently with the one LED for my other cactus to flower.

I almost forgot to ask the question... Not high enough temperature and short duration days (light) the cactus go dorment, if i had proper lighting during the day and temperatures were reasonable it cacti would potentially shoot roots even during the winter?

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Edited by coleman318, 28 September 2018 - 10:19 AM.


#7 Skywatcher

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Posted 09 October 2018 - 09:58 PM

I almost forgot to ask the question... Not high enough temperature and short duration days (light) the cactus go dorment, if i had proper lighting during the day and temperatures were reasonable it cacti would potentially shoot roots even during the winter?

Root formation is IME all about temperature.

Light reduction with cool temps does trigger a dormancy. I have many times succeeded in rooting cuttings mid winter by placing the pot on a reptile heat pad indoors. 

My cactus however are outside all year as I do not have more than maybe 10 nights of frost a year. I see reduced growth from the trichs during the winter, but my temperature averages from December through February are daytime highs of mostly 60's with an occasional day of 50's, and night time lows usually in the low 50's to low 40's on occasion.

 

So my experience is that yes, you can grow roots in winter with reduced light, as long as you can keep the soil in the pot warmed to above 72+ (temps are all in fahrenheit)


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#8 coleman318

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Posted 10 October 2018 - 11:00 PM

I almost forgot to ask the question... Not high enough temperature and short duration days (light) the cactus go dorment, if i had proper lighting during the day and temperatures were reasonable it cacti would potentially shoot roots even during the winter?

Root formation is IME all about temperature.
Light reduction with cool temps does trigger a dormancy. I have many times succeeded in rooting cuttings mid winter by placing the pot on a reptile heat pad indoors.
My cactus however are outside all year as I do not have more than maybe 10 nights of frost a year. I see reduced growth from the trichs during the winter, but my temperature averages from December through February are daytime highs of mostly 60's with an occasional day of 50's, and night time lows usually in the low 50's to low 40's on occasion.

So my experience is that yes, you can grow roots in winter with reduced light, as long as you can keep the soil in the pot warmed to above 72+ (temps are all in fahrenheit)

Oh my goodness thank you

Lady at work was trying to explain this but not quite as well lol. I was wondering about the cactus elongating with lack of light or no light and just heat lamps or heating device of some sort.

Edited by coleman318, 10 October 2018 - 11:03 PM.


#9 Skywatcher

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 07:26 AM

The only reason to keep the cactus actively growing and warm in winter is root formation. Otherwise you should let them rest with bright light and cool temps, kept dry. If they are actively growing with insufficient light, they will etoliate.


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#10 coleman318

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Posted 11 October 2018 - 07:30 AM

I purchased 10 lbs of Trichocereus pachanoi from Cactus Kate. I read mixed things, mostly though I heard even though his identifications can be off or misleading, that his cacti in general seems to be above average potency. Now the place I was reading this I think they were talking about his peruvianus being an cuzcoenis instead but the cuzcoenis is still good potency he claimed.


Okay so I definitely misspoke due to misinformation and I would like to correct it so here we go: I have no clue what I was talking about good potency, I believe the words he used were fine specimen which I mistook for him saying was high in alkaloids but a cuzcoensis is almost always inactive. Sorry for the misinformation.

Edited by coleman318, 11 October 2018 - 07:36 AM.


#11 coleman318

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Posted 12 October 2018 - 11:14 PM

This is what happens when somebody with an addictive personality finds something that “could” be of interest lol. Sometimes I go too deep

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#12 bezevo

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Posted 14 October 2018 - 03:04 PM

OoooOOooo...lots cool cuttings  ,

( I will have to find it, Somewhere I have a  vary good essay book marked that explains history and differences   between the PC cultivator and a good pachanoi .)

 

I see lots  of,,, "Internet Experts" ,,,glance at a photo of a cactus and announce the cactus is a PC  ??,

But in reality  you cant accurately do that,  it's a little more complicated ,they can look almost identical to cactus with good genetics.

I observed this in Peru .

I think a lot of good cactus get written off as PC .

Basically  the two more reliable ways to tell the difference is ...One... bio-essay   .. but another  way is the  PC  tend to have white hairs  around buds and blooms while the Pachanoi with good genetics tend to have gray to black hairs   around buds and blooms ,they can bleach out in sun so make your observations early .  ok i'll  try and find  that essay that give clear more objective scientific explanation  of the differences without the Trout /Zercon  pissing match drama .

oh  also i am not an expert .

Enjoy your cactus !


Edited by bezevo, 14 October 2018 - 03:08 PM.

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#13 coleman318

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 08:51 AM

Yeah I read that too that the hair color on flowers tubes and fruits are brownish black, I saved this picture to remind me the difference.

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#14 coleman318

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 04:42 PM

I was reading a post on increasing alkaloids in cacti and it was mentioning a couple cool ideas. Nitrogen helps draw water but can burn the plant and also speeds growth which makes it less potent by weight. I just received cuts and it’s the start of winter and they have been sitting in almost darkness at room temperature for about a two weeks and some for a month and a half. I have some LED grow lights in my garage with my other succulents and I know if I want the tichocereus cuttings to root I am going to have to keep it relatively warm? I was going to get a simple small Vornado heater fan and have it come on in intervals. I don’t have room for all of them I saw this cool British lady on YouTube using glass jars and paper towels with the cuttings sitting in the jars for a few months to form roots. Does this sound like a good method or idea? Also what diameter of pachanoi is considered mature, old, peak potency for its genetics? I got these pachanoi mid cuttings from [email protected]@cht’$ and they are logs compared to the weak ass PC I received from Zircon06....

Edited by coleman318, 17 October 2018 - 04:58 PM.


#15 Skywatcher

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Posted 17 October 2018 - 06:06 PM

I can't say I have ever tried rooting cuttings in jars, but the lack of air circulation and trapped moisture would scare me. My fastest and safest tec is to place the well scarred cuttings in dry cactus appropriate soil, or even in perlite for rooting purposes only, and then keep them warm with lowered light (as compared to full sun)

 

I would run the lighting, but rather than a fan heat, place a reptile mat underneath. If the numbers make that prohibitive, the fan heater should be pointed more at the pots than at the cactus.

 

Diameter of mature pachanoi can vary so there is no one answer to your question. It has been my experience that once the cactus are well established, prolonged stress such as water restriction will increase the potency.

I have concluded this by having the same exact cactus genetics growing in the desert at a vacation house, and in my own back yard, which is a cooler and better watered environment. The desert grown are noticeably more potent.


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#16 coleman318

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 08:57 AM

luckily because pachanoi and bridgesii have pretty defining ribs so air travels through that down in the bottom where the bottom of the cactus is floating an inch or so from the bottom so air can circulate around it.

#17 Myc

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Posted 18 October 2018 - 09:38 AM

Trying to root cuttings in a jar sounds like a complicated recipe for disaster. Wishing you the best of luck should you choose to pursue this highly un-orthodox (and risky) strategy. 

 

Your cacti will root into a dry, non-nutritious substrate - like perlite or coarse sand. 


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#18 Coopdog

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 02:37 AM

I came across this thread this morning, and man...dude... you asked a LOT of questions and threw out a lot of math and generalizations for a natural thing like a cactus cutting. The PC is one of many thousands of cuts out there. It is a myth in my opinion. There are many cactus sellers out there selling many many cuttings from many, many cactuses. Skywatcher told you the very best say to root them, and he knows what he is talking about. The best way to root cuttings is to listen to the people who love and live with these amazing plants. I just stick mine in soil and DO NOT water until they show new green at the top which can take half a year or so to happen naturally. They seem to thrive once they get their feet under them no matter how you go about it. 

 

Some of the cuttings you showed seem a bit green for rooting just from looking at the pictures. They need to have a nice thick scar/scab over the bottom to root well. I could see through some of the ones you showed that the green was close to the surface. One of those pics with the long spines looked like Bridgessii, so you may have one already on hand. Most pachanoi have short downward pointing spines. 

 

The way most cactus cuttings are lost is that they are watered prematurely. If you water them too much before they get their roots set, they WILL rot. I have shared a dozen cuttings or so over the years and had about TWO take and grow...mainly because the people I shared with did not listen to my advice and watered them before they showed new growth. They need that dry period to root, and without that they have not much chance to grow. You love these things, I can tell, so take the time to do it right and love them the way they need to be loved to thrive brother. 

 

Your cacti will reward you in time for that patience. I have a nice garden of them now because I screwed up and killed a few trying to rush things. There is a LOT of misinformation out there. This site is not a part of that. We tell it like it is here and get put in our place if we don't.

 

Peace man! :)


Edited by Coopdog, 19 October 2018 - 02:43 AM.

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#19 Myc

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 09:18 AM

I see these "arguments" over potency in regards to all kinds of things.

Isolates with mushrooms - cuttings with cacti. 

 

I'm in the same camp with Skywatcher. The same cultivar - grown under different conditions - will provide a different bioessay every time. 

This has been proven over and over with cannabis. The same weed grown in two different places with totally different styles - comes out different. 

Cacti behave in the same way. 

 

Your best bet - instead of "chasing the dragon" by hunting for what someone else says is "good"- is to start some T. peruvianus from seed. After 5 years of care, one of those cacti will take you on a ride you will not soon (or ever) forget. 


Edited by Myc, 19 October 2018 - 09:18 AM.

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#20 coleman318

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Posted 19 October 2018 - 10:13 AM

One of the 6 cuttings I received from zircon06 was what I was hoping for. I just noticed today when I unwrapped all the cuttings that one of them is distinctly different from the rest.

Good to know that the glass jar method isn’t recommended or isn’t a true proven way to get roots.

You mentioned the cuts are really green and not ready for planting. They have been sitting for close to a month and some of them two months,. How much longer should I wait before trying to put them in “dry” soil to show roots?

I guess one I would like to take advantage of my grow setup in the garage even if I have to get a heater. I imagine when it gets really cold the garage opens for a few minutes here and there and i should see what the temperature is in there during the day and night.

Since I bought the cactus over a month and a half ago I was worried they wouldn’t make it until spring if I just let them sit on a shelf.

5 of the 6 cuttings looked like this

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The one outlier looks like this

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