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Ph question for my chemistry topiates


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#1 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 08:16 AM

So in doing an extraction on some plant material i over shot the target using hci.
So instead of adding more water to try and raise the ph i used lye to adjust.
My extraction didnt work the way it should have.
So I have to ask my self and ofcourse yall,
Did using the lye to adjust the ph effect the pka value or some such thing that i am not so well versed in.
The other possibility is that my ph meter is out of whack and i never actually achieved target ph
To begin with.
Any one got any ideas?
Thnx

#2 pharmer

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 11:42 AM

going to need more details to have an informed opinion

 

this adjusting was done before or after the NP?



#3 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 04:38 PM

going to need more details to have an informed opinion
 
this adjusting was done before or after the NP?


I purchased distilled water and used hci 31% i believe muriatic.
to get to a ph 3-4.
Hci being what it is did not require but a drop or so but my dropper put out more than needed
This was done first thing purchased the water went home apply hci over shoot and then attempt to adjust with the sodium hydroxide
Then that is what was used as the acidic solution.
Whatda ya thinkin

#4 happy4nic8r

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 06:19 PM

Muriatic is a weak acid, then it's diluted beyond that. The lye is a pretty strong base and it's not dilutable as far as I'm concerned, so I'm thinking trying a bit weaker base, like ammonium hydroxide. Then titrate a drop at a time using an indicator like phenolphtalene that will tell you when you are neutral by the color change. You could also dissolve some baking soda in water but adding water to acid it so totally not cool I would just go with the NH4OH since it's pretty safe and stable.



#5 coorsmikey

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 06:39 PM

Personal experience tells me that its better to "overshoot' the target rather than undershoot. The target is usually the minimum requirement to use the least amount of chems to get there. Is your finished goal a salt or freebase? I get that you not fond of saying exactly what you're extracting so I'm just throwing out some ideas. If it were me and I thought I wasn't getting the desired results with the adjusted acid, I would add more hcl to get it to 3 or lower then continue as planed, rather than worrying that the solution is low enough. Especially if you only need another drop or two to get it there. If I was going to base it, then I would go ahead and do that and do a clean up or re-X after completed. Only thing that I can think of being effected with the wrong Ph below 6 would be the separation of fats and solvents. 



#6 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 06:52 PM

Muriatic is a weak acid, then it's diluted beyond that. The lye is a pretty strong base and it's not dilutable as far as I'm concerned, so I'm thinking trying a bit weaker base, like ammonium hydroxide. Then titrate a drop at a time using an indicator like phenolphtalene that will tell you when you are neutral by the color change. You could also dissolve some baking soda in water but adding water to acid it so totally not cool I would just go with the NH4OH since it's pretty safe and stable.

I was under the impression that muriatic was dilute hydrocloric acid
Is muriatic weak because its diluted or because its not hydrocloric at all and just weak ass muriatic acid?

Heres the thing I only used a couple grains of lye to adjust and raise the ph. Literally a minute amount of lye.
It served the purpose i was looking for but the problem is that in the extraction nothing was pulled.
When the naptha was evaped only a small amnt of fat was left.
So my question is did I fuck it up by the addition of the lye to my acidic solution and change my acidic dh20 to a whole other solution incapable of performing the extraction? Make sense?

Why do you say its totally uncool to add water to an acid. Whats that about?

Edited by invisibilitysyndrome, 29 November 2018 - 07:03 PM.


#7 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 06:59 PM

Personal experience tells me that its better to "overshoot' the target rather than undershoot. The target is usually the minimum requirement to use the least amount of chems to get there. Is your finished goal a salt or freebase? I get that you not fond of saying exactly what you're extracting so I'm just throwing out some ideas. If it were me and I thought I wasn't getting the desired results with the adjusted acid, I would add more hcl to get it to 3 or lower then continue as planed, rather than worrying that the solution is low enough. Especially if you only need another drop or two to get it there. If I was going to base it, then I would go ahead and do that and do a clean up or re-X after completed. Only thing that I can think of being effected with the wrong Ph below 6 would be the separation of fats and solvents.

Check out the last response of mine to happy.
Its a MHRB extract
Ive done these before plenty i just never used muriatic and then never tried to raise the ph of the solution with lye befor attempting the extraction.
Nothing was pulled so what really happened.
See what im saying im just confused did the lye change the dh20 to somthing other than h20 that is unable to pull the desired alkaloid?

#8 coorsmikey

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:13 PM

The Extract is still there assuming it was from the beginning. If you overshot it and brought it back up its really only going to make a difference if you're defatting in the acid. Naps will not pull the salts but will pull fats in an acidic solution. I would actually suggest from the info provided that the Ph was not high enough for the Base Pull. Where is the bark now? Did you separate from the acid solution or did you leave it in when you went to base and then pull? The D is still there somewhere, we just need to figure out where and get it.  



#9 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:26 PM

The Extract is still there assuming it was from the beginning. If you overshot it and brought it back up its really only going to make a difference if you're defatting in the acid. Naps will not pull the salts but will pull fats in an acidic solution. I would actually suggest from the info provided that the Ph was not high enough for the Base Pull. Where is the bark now? Did you separate from the acid solution or did you leave it in when you went to base and then pull? The D is still there somewhere, we just need to figure out where and get it.

Soooo.
I did keep the bark and said well if i didnt actually pull anything from the bark then STB should be able to answer that question.
I added lye to water and than poured that over the bark
It was only 100g bark test run to get an idea of what the kg will hold.
Ive tried and pulled 3 times with new naptha each pull and still nothing.
That right there tells me the bark is trash but zero results.
one would think there would be a small amount in the bark but nothing.
The stb just left me confused so i wrote in and here we are.
Ill try and add more base to the og extraction and see if the ph isnt high enough

Edited by invisibilitysyndrome, 29 November 2018 - 07:28 PM.


#10 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:40 PM

So i increased the ph of the original free base step of the first extraction
that may have not been high enough

since when i did the stb extraction on the shredded bark. , that was saved from the first 3 acid soaks, it yielded nothing when i pulled it with naptha.

Originally I figured that using lye to help adjust the ph may some how have ruined everything.
Coorsmikey mentioned the ph of the base step and no one else seemed to feel like the lye was the issue
id have to say i agree and now only the next 24 hrs is between me and the answer , I hope.
I also hope all this makes sense as i wasnt intentionally trying to be vague in the begining confusing my inquiry .
So fingers crossed.
If nothing comes of it ill just have to move on to another 100g bark and do it right next time.
Assuming the bark isnt an imposter. Bah bah buhhhm

Edited by invisibilitysyndrome, 29 November 2018 - 08:39 PM.

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#11 coorsmikey

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:41 PM

Well that sounds like you have it narrowed down. You already have done the leg work. I have my bet on its in the OG extract, Pesronally if it were me and I still had 900 gr left I would want to know that its not trash bark. I would add enough lye to get past that milky murky look until it turned black. I bet it still gets warm even. the naps should separate in 30 seconds after a hard shake and not a gentle role. I think thats where it is. Do a STB on 50 gr if that doesn't work to make sure its not bad bark. Damn now I have the extraction bug, got to go see what i have on hand.



#12 coorsmikey

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 07:44 PM

And muriatic acid is hydrocloric acid and it is one of the 6 strong acids
Happy4nic8r can you explain what you were refering to.
Really im just curious.

I was curious myself, But i chalked up  as he meant that with only a few drops needed that it doesn't take much sodium hydroxide to neutralize the hcl. 


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#13 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 08:48 PM

Well that sounds like you have it narrowed down. You already have done the leg work. I have my bet on its in the OG extract, Pesronally if it were me and I still had 900 gr left I would want to know that its not trash bark. I would add enough lye to get past that milky murky look until it turned black. I bet it still gets warm even. the naps should separate in 30 seconds after a hard shake and not a gentle role. I think thats where it is. Do a STB on 50 gr if that doesn't work to make sure its not bad bark. Damn now I have the extraction bug, got to go see what i have on hand.


Yea you know what theew me really.
When i added the base water to the acid soak solution it did change but ...
I was mistaking the getting milky for the reaction you get when you do a back extraction and the dmt actually crashes out so yea duh on me I was getting ahead of myself and declairing victory for the wrong frigging step.
What can i say im just smart enough to be dangerous.
Anyways be ez and ill see tomorrow.
Thnx yall

#14 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 29 November 2018 - 09:24 PM

Ok so last post.

Heres a fun fact

Mixing a strong acid and a strong base in reaction create a salt and water.

Mixing hydrochloric acid a strong acid and sodium hydroxide a strong base
They create a salt and water the salt they create is sodium cloride, good ol table salt.
So essentially what i did by mixing the 2 was not detrimental
And salt even help push the dmt out as well.

#15 happy4nic8r

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 01:40 AM

Do you have a pH meter of some sort to check where you're at with either acids or bases? I like to have a digital as well as paper strips to keep an eye on that with all chemistry experiments. It's also good to have some safety equipment like masks and gloves, an exhaust fan, some buckets or plastic for quick acting removal of spills, or violent reactions that don't seem to be solving themselves. 

I've had some experience with bad moves turning into really dangerous situations that end up with hospitals and police, and now I just stick to chemicals and procedures that don't have potential for that kind of excitement. 



#16 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 05:07 AM

Do you have a pH meter of some sort to check where you're at with either acids or bases? I like to have a digital as well as paper strips to keep an eye on that with all chemistry experiments. It's also good to have some safety equipment like masks and gloves, an exhaust fan, some buckets or plastic for quick acting removal of spills, or violent reactions that don't seem to be solving themselves. 
I've had some experience with bad moves turning into really dangerous situations that end up with hospitals and police, and now I just stick to chemicals and procedures that don't have potential for that kind of excitement.


Yea for sure
In my initial post is where i said i belive my meter is in need of a calibration.
I havnt been able to locate the box with the calibration liquid and directions for it.
Hell ive got papers and liquid ph indicator

Ultimatly i just wasnt sure about the lye and the effect if any (aside from changimg the ph) it had on the acidic liquid portion of the a/b extraction.

With a faulty meter its difficult to ascertain the actual ph leta lone the actual ph of the liquida due to the coloring effect the bark has on the water especially the alkaline portion with papers or liquid indicators.

Aside from not keeping up with my metrrs health everthing else is done relativly safe minus a fume hood. Just not a practicle option I have.

Care to share your hospital police experience. Sounds like an ordeal.
Knock on wood my procedures usually end with the desired out come and no one but me the wiser in person that is not counting yall.

#17 happy4nic8r

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Posted 30 November 2018 - 05:35 AM

Haha, I'm glad I can still be here to share such tales, and yes, more than one to be sure.
I definitely came from a time where there weren't many go to information centers that shared drug making procedures with anyone. I got kicked out of UCBerkeley chemistry department for asking one of the TA's if he had any knowledge of making lsd. I confided that was the main reason I was taking chemistry, and probably was not going to need all the rest of their time if I could just cut to the chase. I was probably not thinking what that would mean to my future, but I had my reasons and they were getting on my case a bit anyway.
So feeling a bit depressed about my situation I decided to start small with maybe making some moonshine, something easy, and continue searching for a teacher who would lead me to my goal.
I remember the condenser getting plugged, stopped dripping anyway, and I let it cool down for what seemed like an eternity before in just trying to move it off the stove, it blew and covered me in boiling alcohol. I was lucky that a friend pulled up at that moment and gave me a ride to the hospital while my wife chatted with the police, who she called along with the ambulance. Nothing came of that but some long days and sleepless nights of healing, enough time to make some notes on what I'd done wrong, and what my next project would be.
Now you can get recipes for just about anything, so you have a much better chance at a successful cook than I did, and we are lucky in a way that that knowledge is not considered deviant behaviour, at least not by everyone.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

#18 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 03:10 AM

Haha, I'm glad I can still be here to share such tales, and yes, more than one to be sure.
I definitely came from a time where there weren't many go to information centers that shared drug making procedures with anyone. I got kicked out of UCBerkeley chemistry department for asking one of the TA's if he had any knowledge of making lsd. I confided that was the main reason I was taking chemistry, and probably was not going to need all the rest of their time if I could just cut to the chase. I was probably not thinking what that would mean to my future, but I had my reasons and they were getting on my case a bit anyway.
So feeling a bit depressed about my situation I decided to start small with maybe making some moonshine, something easy, and continue searching for a teacher who would lead me to my goal.
I remember the condenser getting plugged, stopped dripping anyway, and I let it cool down for what seemed like an eternity before in just trying to move it off the stove, it blew and covered me in boiling alcohol. I was lucky that a friend pulled up at that moment and gave me a ride to the hospital while my wife chatted with the police, who she called along with the ambulance. Nothing came of that but some long days and sleepless nights of healing, enough time to make some notes on what I'd done wrong, and what my next project would be.
Now you can get recipes for just about anything, so you have a much better chance at a successful cook than I did, and we are lucky in a way that that knowledge is not considered deviant behaviour, at least not by everyone.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


Yea man thats a hell of a thing to have happen.
I made a small one from a pressure cooker
4gal apx
i gotta run it twice to get a nice 160 but worth the time

Well thankfully ive not had a mishap like you had but
taking the time to do things propper goes a long way to not getting fukt up.

#19 invisibilitysyndrome

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Posted 18 December 2018 - 03:12 AM

As far as my dilemma is concerned
Nothing was pulled so i dont friggin know
I started another 100g stb today to see if this bark is even propper
We shall see i reckon.

#20 happy4nic8r

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Posted 17 June 2019 - 11:56 AM

Do you add 1/2 tbsp of ascorbic acid to the initial soak water? Some bark extracts more with acidic I've read. I'm certainly not an expert on this procedure, but am hoping to soon become one. Is there a good dye making company that sells their product and doesn't get held up in border crossings?

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