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Will incubating spawn bags in a tub slow down the growth due to less air flow?


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#1 MagickMan87

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:21 PM

Hello all! I am on my 3rd attempt at growing from spawn bags instead of jars.  The first time I tried, the spores did not germinate properly.  The second time, I didn't inject at multiple angles so by the time I saw any substantial development, s couple of spots of mold had set in.  Now it's winter and I live in a very drafty and cold house.  I have my tub in tub setup going in an attempt to keep the temperature at a steady 75º.  I have two spawn bags incubating, but it's been almost 3 weeks and one bag shows no signs of mycelium growth at all, and the other only has a very small spot on the bottom of the bag that doesn't seem to have spread any in the last four days.  My question is, could the fact that I am keeping them in an almost airtight plastic tub be a factor in the slow growth?

 

Thanks in advance



#2 Billcoz

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:36 PM

Hello all! I am on my 3rd attempt at growing from spawn bags instead of jars.  The first time I tried, the spores did not germinate properly.  The second time, I didn't inject at multiple angles so by the time I saw any substantial development, s couple of spots of mold had set in.  Now it's winter and I live in a very drafty and cold house.  I have my tub in tub setup going in an attempt to keep the temperature at a steady 75º.  I have two spawn bags incubating, but it's been almost 3 weeks and one bag shows no signs of mycelium growth at all, and the other only has a very small spot on the bottom of the bag that doesn't seem to have spread any in the last four days.  My question is, could the fact that I am keeping them in an almost airtight plastic tub be a factor in the slow growth?

 

Thanks in advance

 If it's VERY nearly airtight it will slow growth, I left foil on half of my first batsch of jars ever, and the foil covered ones were all noticeably slower to show any, it took 15 days to see any, while the un-covered showed in like four days.

 

 Myc needs O2 and the CO2 needs to be able to escape, higher CO2 will definitely slow growth, but if i6t is not really air tight I would think it would be alright, I incubate jars in a closed cardboard box and they usually show growth in two days.


Edited by Billcoz, 05 December 2018 - 05:38 PM.


#3 PJammer24

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Posted 05 December 2018 - 05:53 PM

I inoculate through the foil and let them colonize with the foil still on the jars... If properly sterilized, I don't see how this could lead to contamination... Having the spawn hydrated properly is a more significant concern.

 

As for the question regarding the tub impacting growth. Mine colonize in a closet with the door shut and limited to no airflow. Placing your spawn in a tub should not impact whether they colonize or not.


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#4 Billcoz

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 01:52 AM

I inoculate through the foil and let them colonize with the foil still on the jars... If properly sterilized, I don't see how this could lead to contamination... Having the spawn hydrated properly is a more significant concern.

 

As for the question regarding the tub impacting growth. Mine colonize in a closet with the door shut and limited to no airflow. Placing your spawn in a tub should not impact whether they colonize or not.

 No, not contams, slower growth in jars I sealed back up with foil after inoculating, took 2 weeks to see growth, compared to less than a week for jars I left foil off of, all made and inoculated at the same time, same syringe.

 

 If your piercing the foil then it's the same as removing it, unless you cover it with new foil or tape or something, I had taken it off, inoculated, then returned the pieces and sealed tight.

 

 He said "near airtight", and said "slow growth", which is true, lower O2 & higher CO2 levels causes slower mycelial growth, otherwise we could forgo the gas exchanges on jar lids..


Edited by Billcoz, 06 December 2018 - 01:57 AM.


#5 coorsmikey

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 03:26 AM

I call it coincidence! I have grow spawn jars and bags completely sealed without any issues short term. I also keep both in tubs with lids.
I think hidden bacteria is the culprit and possibly the fact the spores were used to inoculate spawn. Spores to spawn can work but is also a crapshoot. It’s is not recommended but people continue to do it that to eliminate steps for convenience. The tub or air exchange is not a important during early colonization. It is when attempting to fruit however. Also with contaminated or pasteurized subs FAE can help combat keep competing organism at bay, but in sterile spawn there is enough oxygen present for myc to grow for a month or two. If spawn is taking that long to colonize there are other issues.


Edited by coorsmikey, 07 December 2018 - 11:41 PM.

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#6 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 07:03 AM

I've been using both jars and bags. Other then a few bad syringes that I made all of my vendor purchased syringes have been on point with not a single loss to contams (knock on wood).

If your having that many issues with bags it sounds like you may be getting faulty spores. You said with your second one that you didn't shoot enough angles then mold occurred, I have yet to have a problem with how many directions I shoot the syringes because I shake between 5-20% on total colonization.

Filtered Myco bags are a godsend for me especially because I like the larger sizes. I can put 7-10 pounds on spawn In an extra large bag and fit about 15lbs in my 21qt pressure cooker.

If your having that much trouble you might want to go through your Tek with a fine tooth comb and figure out where you are letting contams in at. If your Tek is on point and you are loosing all of your bags or jars to contams then it is most likely your syringes.

Just my opinion I'm still new myself but you learn fast after you loose grain.

#7 Billcoz

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Posted 06 December 2018 - 10:39 PM

I call it coincidence! I have grow spawn jars and bags completely sealed without any issues short term. I also keep both in tubs with lids.
I think hidde bacteria is the culprit and possibly the fact the spores were used to inoculate spawn. Spores to spawn can work but is also a crapshoot. It’s is not recommended but people continue to do it that to eliminate steps for convenience. The tub or air exchange is not a important during early colonization. It is when attempting to fruit however. Also with contaminated or pasteurized subs FAE can help combat keep competing organism at bay, but in sterile spawn there is enough oxygen present for myc to grow for a month or two. If spawn is taking that long to colonize there are other issues.

 I'm pretty sure the reason all the jars I had covered with foil took twice as long to see growth compared to the jars I left it off was gas exchange, same syringe of ms G.T.(cube).

 

 I put the foil back on half the jars because I wanted to test this exact thing because on my first couple grows when I was under the impression that I had to return the foil to the jars after inoculating to incubate but it took two weeks to see any growth in two batches of 6 jars, and then I read that I should take the foil off cuz they need GE.

 

 So for the next batch i returned the foil on half the jars and those took abou two weeks and the un-foiled(with micropore and verm layer) showed in like 4-5 days.

 

 So maybe it doesn't require gas exchange to survive but it does effect the growth rate IME.



#8 coorsmikey

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 01:01 AM

Cool beans to whatever works best for you. I wish you nothing but the best and want to see everyone succeed. How about you and I have this same discussion in 10-20 years and compare notes again?
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#9 Billcoz

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 05:37 AM

Cool beans to whatever works best for you. I wish you nothing but the best and want to see everyone succeed. How about you and I have this same discussion in 10-20 years and compare notes again?

 Sure lol, I could be wrong, that was only my experience, I thought it was necessary to put the foil back on the jars to keep dust & stuff out while I was having issues with jars taking a long time to show growth, then I noticed more and more pics online of jars without foil, then I read that it's recommended to leave it off, so I decided to try some both ways and see, just my experience.

 

 I think the lower O2 and higher CO2 in jars makes for slow growth, but probably keeps contams down, maybe healthy myc, it wouldn't be trying to fruit in-vitro so it would put that energy into spreading the myc colony.

 

 I may not have 20 years experience but I have been researching for 3 1/2 years, about everything to do with this, I've read "the Mushroom Cultivator"(Stamets) twice, "Psilocybin, Magic MGG(Oss & Oeric)", "Psilocybin Mushroom Bible"(Haze, Mandrake), and more.

 

 That's not to say I know it all, or even a lot, I have less hands-on experience, and I AM willing to learn, if imake a claim to know something and someone shows contradictory evidence, I'd be intellectually dishonest and be hurting my chance of being the best I can at what I'm trying to do, that's my philosophy towards things I wish to do well,.

 

 Ego is what keeps some new growers from ever having any success, ironic that the biggest egos are the ones who would benefit most from the fruits of this labor.


Edited by Billcoz, 07 December 2018 - 05:40 AM.

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#10 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:24 AM

I was always under the impression that filters on jars/bags were more of a way to 'release pressure' from inside the jar/bag to outside. And that for short term colonization of grain there doesn't need to be much, if any, FAE from the outside to the inside.

I've see people successfully colonize jars that are either sealed completely or at the most a self healing injection port but no filter.

My understanding is one day someone who created these teks said 'Hey I probably need a filter / can't hurt anything' and then from that point everyone has been using filters because it's just the thing you do. Kinda like an old man passing a story onto a child.

I think what coorsmikey is trying to say is that there is that if you did it both ways 100's of times over that 10-20 year timeframe you won't notice any difference. And if you did notice a difference it would be interesting to see how much of a difference it truely made, on average, after hundred or thousands of runs. Filter vs non-filter.

However I didn't read all those fancy books either. I could just be some internet jackass that gives you advice that kills all your mycelium.

Do I use a filter in open air? Yes, because I'm too much of a pussy not too. =)

Edited by MysticalMyco, 07 December 2018 - 09:26 AM.

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#11 Deleena24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:47 AM

Mycelium needs oxygen. No its and or buts.

This is the reason tall half pints colonize slower than wide mouths. The co2 builds at the bottom, and growth stalls.

It's not optional. People who have success with seemingly closed systems have their lids flipped and they are loosely closed, or are using a container which hold enough air to fully colonize.

As for keeping them in completely closed tubs, it depends. Your tub could be the factor that's introducing contains, too. Clean it,and cut a couple holes in the lid. Problem solved

#12 PJammer24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:13 AM

Mycelium needs oxygen. No its and or buts.

This is the reason tall half pints colonize slower than wide mouths. The co2 builds at the bottom, and growth stalls.

It's not optional. People who have success with seemingly closed systems have their lids flipped and they are loosely closed, or are using a container which hold enough air to fully colonize.

As for keeping them in completely closed tubs, it depends. Your tub could be the factor that's introducing contains, too. Clean it,and cut a couple holes in the lid. Problem solved

 

 

If CO2 is sinking to the bottom, how is it escaping out the FAE filter at the top of the jar? Many of my jars begin colonization from the bottom of the jar up... How does that make sense if there is tons of CO2 building at the bottom? I have had plenty of jars colonize without giving them a shake. Shaking the jar provides some FAE but does the jar then colonize faster because of the air exchange or because you increased the points of growth from limited to many? I don't have the data to say either way... I would speculate that shaking the jar does provide some additional oxygen and its likely that this speeds colonization a little but its the increase in inoculation points that significantly decreases colonization times. 

 

IME, respiration is not so intense as to consume all the available oxygen in the jar and create enough CO2 to keep jars from colonizing. When you have spawned to a substrate and increased the mycelium exponentially, Co2 buildup becomes more apparent.

 

Where this thread is concerned, and what op is asking, is whether keeping his jars in a tub are the reason he is experiencing slow colonization times. Some people build incubators out of tubs and that doesn't keep them from colonizing properly. Mine colonize in a closet with nearly zero air flow.... You don't have to provide a significant amount of FAE to get your  jars to colonize properly. I pull mine out of the sterilizer and put them back in the box with the foil still on. If the box they came in has a lid, I close the lid on top of the foil, which is on top of the jar... What kind of FAE are they getting? Very little... 

 

I have also not seem differences in colonization speed between my wide mouth jars and my standard mouth jars. The only benefit I have noticed from wide mouth jars is that the spawn can be removed more easily. I have lots of both types of jars because when I am buying jars, I typically buy them out of quart jars no matter what style they are.

 

OP... If you want your jars to colonize more quickly... Smack the shit out of those suckers as soon as you see a decent amount of mycelium... Break the mycelium up by smacking the jar off your hand if you need to... Spread that mycelium throughout as much of the jar as possible so that when it rebounds it starts from many different spots in the jar... That is what will help your jars colonize more quickly... FAE is not your issue IMO...


Edited by PJammer24, 07 December 2018 - 11:16 AM.


#13 Deleena24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:52 AM

You're 100% right it's not FAE...its GE. Completely different concepts.

The co2 is able to escape due to something known as diffusion. It's the same concept as positive and negative pressure except you're dealing with proportions of gas, in turn creating convection. The heat generated by the mycelium also help this process, bc as you know, heat, and air with it, rise! Allowing GE Aka Gas exchange in this instance. Which cannot happen in a closed system bc fungus breathe oxygen.

I'm simplifying, but am I the only one who remembers 5th grade science class?

Shake your grains all you want, they wont grow without oxygen no matter how many points of innoculation you have.

And yes, there would be some oxygen in a closed system, but it's like putting a person in a plastic bubble. He will be fine for a while, hrs, maybe even days will pass before all the oxygen will be gone, but that person WILL die, just like a tall half pint. Flip it to allow oxygen in, and it will start to grow again.

If you're not familiar with the tall half pint stalling problem, I dont believe you when you say you use them. It's a commonality that even PF noted in the beginning of the tek, and an idea that been reinforced and proven again and again. Search the vaults you'll see.

This is why you dont see people making quart jars of brf...they stall or contam before they colonize. I cant imagine this not happening on a larger scale. I no longer put my jars in totes for this reason exactly. I noticed everything in it was slower than all my bags and jars that were simply on a shelf or in a box with an open top.

I wish Hippie was here. He would know exactly what to say due to all of his invitro research and would better know how to explain it. The guy had a way with words.

But like I said, drill or cut a couple holes in the tote, clean it, and none of the factors mentioned will be a problem.

#14 PJammer24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:30 PM

I have very limited experience with PF tek and PF tek was not the topic of this thread... 

 

When colonizing a grain spawn jar and in my experience with bags, there is more than enough O2 available to the spawn no matter where you put the jars. I never suggested not providing for exchange using tyvek or polyfil or some other method. We are discussing whether the jars need to be placed in an area that gets active FAE...

 

GE will occur with the process you just described whether the jar is in an enclosed tub, in a box, a closet, or in anything else.... It has nothing to do with cutting holes in the tub where you store your jars... The holes in the tub would provide FAE....

 

You don't have to actively provide additional air to the jars... they will do everything needed on their own.



#15 Deleena24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:44 PM

I know hes talking about grain, but my example clearly shows how buildup of co2 will stall growth.

And honestly, you're not sure if the closed tote will make a difference. In my experience, with enough spawn and time, I think it does, and the original poster is obviously worried this is the case.

And since were both not sure, why would cleaning the tub and putting a couple holes in it be a bad idea? Even if it doesnt make a significant difference, now he wont have to worry about that factor, and can move on.

#16 Deleena24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 12:52 PM

These jars were knocked up on the same day, same syringe, same grains, everything. Only difference is that the healthy jar was on a shelf so I can test the theory bc I was having these exact worries. The other has been in a closed tote with dozens of other jars, all slow and stalled in the tote.

I can show the same results with bags.

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#17 coorsmikey

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 03:43 PM

You’re opinion is purely anecdotal, has to many variables and not enough controls to even be considered as accurate. But I do respect that both of you are using experience to back your statement. Drives me nut when people watch videos or read what one guru says and spreads it viral like It has to be true. It’s nice to have different point of views so the OP doesn’t get locked in to a single method and will continue to look for other possible factors to a solution, like Temps, genetics or even moisture which could easily explain why you may have better results with foil off. If it was to moist it may allow it dried to a better level producing faster growth. But personally I have been using sealed and filtered lids side by side for 20 yrs and haven’t noticed a perceivable difference until it’s time to fruit.


Edited by coorsmikey, 07 December 2018 - 04:44 PM.

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#18 jkdeth

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 06:10 PM

Lot of people are even using unmodified plastic lids on grain jars now.
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#19 Billcoz

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:05 PM

I was always under the impression that filters on jars/bags were more of a way to 'release pressure' from inside the jar/bag to outside. And that for short term colonization of grain there doesn't need to be much, if any, FAE from the outside to the inside.

I've see people successfully colonize jars that are either sealed completely or at the most a self healing injection port but no filter.

My understanding is one day someone who created these teks said 'Hey I probably need a filter / can't hurt anything' and then from that point everyone has been using filters because it's just the thing you do. Kinda like an old man passing a story onto a child.

I think what coorsmikey is trying to say is that there is that if you did it both ways 100's of times over that 10-20 year timeframe you won't notice any difference. And if you did notice a difference it would be interesting to see how much of a difference it truely made, on average, after hundred or thousands of runs. Filter vs non-filter.

However I didn't read all those fancy books either. I could just be some internet jackass that gives you advice that kills all your mycelium.

Do I use a filter in open air? Yes, because I'm too much of a pussy not too. =)

Yeah, like I said, it just makes for slower growth.



#20 Deleena24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:16 PM

How did this get to the point of people suggesting leaving filters off lids and saying mycelium will grow fine with no GE?

I dont see anyone else providing an actual solution to the guy...other than reassurance your opinion on the matter is more accurate.

Suppose he said this...

"Can someone explain to me why grain jars and bags always slow or stall in my totes, but not on a shelf? Same syringes same jars same grain batches same temp same moisture same filters...consistent results.

Could be a coincidence...sure...could be a bunch of things, I just know it doesnt happen when outside the tote."

What would your advice be?..

I would say why waste time worrying about it when you can just stop using the tote or cut holes, even just leave the friggin lid cracked and KNOW it isn't a factor...which is what I did after pondering the whys in that situation...

Call me crazy, but I call it pragmatic. Eliminate factors you cant be sure of, or control, if possible.
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