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The NoFap Movement and Mushrooms...


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#1 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:44 AM

I don't know how many of you have heard of the new movement called "NoFap" - you, it's exactly what you think it is (well, for males anyway - not sure if there is an equivalent for Females).

The idea is that "fapping" and porn addiction, which is considered to affect as many as 87% (or more) of men due to the availability of high speed internet (Not you Alder  :tongue:  ) are addicted to porn and masturbation.

This causes lowering of dopamine over the long term, and changes to the brain that make it more difficult to...ah... "keep the tree stable" if you get my meaning... during sex, and has led to the widespread condition of Erectile Disfunction in younger and younger men.

It also causes many social interaction disfunctions, depression, and a host of other mental and physical maladies.

So... now there is a movement called "NoFap" that is trying to "Reboot" the brain. That is it in a nutshell, google for more information.

But we here at Mycotopia know all about rebooting the brain! So I thought I would throw out this somewhat sensitive topic and ask what everyone thinks of incorporating our sacraments as yet another means of dealing with issues such as this.

I wont be surprised however, if this post gets read a lot, but not replied to.  I get it, it is a sensitive and perhaps even embarrassing topic, but one I think merits some serious thought.


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#2 PJammer24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 10:58 AM

F that!!! I'll respond the shit out of this thread!!

 

"No Fap" is going to lead to more water usage, a spike in laundry detergent sales and stock, sleep aids, and a spike in teenagers embarrassed to hand laundry over to their mothers!!!

 

There is a trade off to everything... Mental health may be impacted in other ways as soiled sheets due to wet dreams increase...

 

I would like to see the correlation plotted on a graph... Anyone care to do this research and report back?

 

:biggrin:  :tongue:  :cool:  :ohmy:


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#3 Cuboid

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:03 AM

Apart from anything else, regular ejaculation is good for you prostate health I.e. lowered risk of prostrate cancer. If you aren't lucky enough to have a regular 'play mate' then you gonna need to Fap!
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#4 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:17 AM

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#5 PJammer24

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:18 AM

The "No-Fap" movement would have been beneficial to my hockey career.. jerking off before games is never a good idea...



#6 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 11:19 AM

What was said when I was on the submarine are these:

 

"It's okay to do it, just not to get caught." 

 

"There are two kinds of liars: the ones who say they never did it, and the ones who say they quit." 

 

So, I like to say about it, "I was lucky, I had a bad prostate."

 

I got something that got diagnosed as "non-specific prostatitis" when I was in my late teens.  I lived with something like the prostate of an old man all my adult life.   Because tamsulosin (a.k.a., Flomax) is prescribe for helping pass kidney stones, I got a prescription in my sixties for that when I had my second bout of kidney stones.  For the first time in my adult life, I could fully empty my bladder and could go hours without having to piss.    It was great, sleeping through a whole night.

 

Not liking to take pharma drugs, I specifically asked if there would be a tolerance built up.  I was told no, initially.  That was a lie, and after a few years, the dose was doubled, as the effects weakened.  Now, I am addicted to the damned stuff because if I don't take it, I can't pee, even if I have to go really bad.   Bastards!

 

Where am I going with this?   That drug is called an "alpha blocker," whatever the fuck that is.  It lowers blood pressure and somehow cancels the effect of an enlarged prostate, relaxes it so the urine can flow easily.  As a side affect, that relaxed channel for urine that is joined inside the prostate with the vas deferens, causes the ejaculate to go up into the bladder, rather than to its intended destination.  So, on Flomax, you literally fuck yourself.  

 

Getting old isn't for wimps. 


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#7 425nm

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:02 PM

-rubs hands together-
Oooohhh where to start? There are so many layers to this and I truely don't have the time or energy to really get deep in.
Here in the West we are just ever so barely out of being an extremely extremely sex negative culture. Arguably many pockets of the West still very much are. So there is a tonne of old ideas for people like this dredge up, polish a little, and present it as if its legit.

Additionally, keep in mind: when you know little about a subject someone knows a little bit more than you can sound like they know a lot about a subject. This is (so far as I can tell) how people like Jordan Peterson exerts their thrall over people. Literally everything that comes out of the man's mouth is nonsense (or has just a glimmer of truth) but its wrapped up in fancy words and a rhetorical labyrinth so it is hard for people to see through his bullshit.

I'd like to know where you're getting your info from Steam? What are we calling the "NoFap movement"? The self-identified sub-reddit? The Corporate (well LLC which is a baby corp) NoFap entity? The long history of various anti-masturbation anti-sex anti-woman psuedo-scientific psuedo-mystic groups that have all been plagiarizing one another for nigh on forever?
That last bit is a little hyperbolic but if you look a little closer you'll see that their ideas are unoriginal and have simply been dressed up in psuedo-Science to justify them. But throughout history various strains of Taoists, Stoicism, Christians, Muslims, John Harvey Kellogg (yes of cereal fame), etc have all come up with this notion that not masturbating or not having sex or both some how makes you magical (Or in the exact words of the NoFap website: "A superhero"). Usually these ideas are either screens for or simply a fancy patina on some very hardcore misogyny. NoFap just seems to be a modern and allegedly secular incarnation of one of these. See this rather interesting article (On no nut November by a Historian for some context).
If you are tempted to dismiss this Historian because the Humanities aren't "Objective or Scientific" I'd suggest examining where that assumption comes from. The rift between the Humanities and the Sciences is almost entire born on the back of a petty desire to assert one disciplines preeminence over the other. They are both extremely valuable and usually compliment each wonderfully. Anyone that would tell you otherwise has an agenda they are pushing (knowingly or not). Not that NoFap has any actual Science to stand on.

Regardless of which we are discussing I think a great deal of suspicion is warranted. Which is not to say that either might not be attempting to speak to a real problem buuuut I have my suspicions about their motives and the integrity of their ideas. Some folks probably do have a fraught relationship with internet porn and maybe it is causing them some level of dysfunction in their life but I'm not convinced its the porns fault per-say.

Let's start with some corporate sanction history from the NoFap website:
"Alexander [Rhodes] founded NoFap® “officially” in June 2011 after perceiving the problem of excessive porn use in himself and others in online discussions for years. Alexander leveraged social media to create a then-described “bio-hacking” laboratory by issuing challenges to abstain from porn and masturbation and encouraging participants to discuss their results. When participants reported experiencing tremendous benefits from abstaining, Alexander recognized the power these challenges held to improve people’s lives. He seized the opportunity to help as many people as he could by developing NoFap® into a comprehensive community-based porn recovery website. With Alexander’s leadership and dedication, NoFap® has given thousands of people all the tools and support they need to overcome porn addiction and compulsive sexual behavior.
Alexander’s highest aspiration in life is to help the most people possible by spreading great ideas through new media. He designed his first webpage at age twelve, touching off his interest in web development. Prior to administering NoFap® full time, he worked as a solo web developer having contracted for everyone from tiny startups to Google Inc. Alexander’s interests also include dabbling in the film industry, writing, and petting cats. Alexander graduated with a B.S. in biology from the University of Pittsburgh in late 2013."

Was it founded by a single person? I have no idea (I'm no investigative journalist) but I know NoFap has been flapping in the Internet's wind for quite sometime and they've been getting criticized for just as long. See:
True Story: I Tried No-Fap and it sucked (for me)
Neuroscientists Challenge Myths about Men and Porn
The NoFap Phenomenon

As a fellow holder of a Bachelor's of Science I am frankly offended by the complete and utter lack of citations on this website. Never mind the claim of "bio-hacking" (that term is almost always worth the eye roll it reflexively generates). There is nothing but claims on the website. No citations, no research tab, nothing. Just a slick website with LITERALLY NOTHING to back his claims up. Please, dig through the site. There isn't a single shred of actual evidence presented. Occasionally in the blog style articles on the site a study is mentioned but no citation is provided. Why is that important? Because it makes it very very hard to fact check that the study mentioned actually says what they claim it does. This is 1st year Uni shit, you will literally fail your first year if you can't get your citation game straight. There is literally no reason you should believe anything the website tells you.

They have no evidence to back up their claims.

The NoFap site sells books, shirts, mugs, courses, speaking engagements and accepts donations. They have a financial stake in you believing all of this is true because they want to make money off of you. They then use "a community" as a means of ensnaring you so they can further milk you for money and have you evangelize.That is what the NoFap LLC is about though they may believe the nonsense they're putting out there.

Science (or lack there of) and financial motives aside their central claim is shitty, reductive and naive. I imagine many folks on here feel a knee jerk tendency to roll their eyes at the phrase "Toxic Masculinity" but this really is a great example. They're essentially saying you're no more than what you do with your dick. Jerk it = source of all your problems. Don't jerk it = superhero. Its dehumanizing, it removes all your agency as a human/man/however you want to look at it. It abdicates all responsibility. Maybe you are looking at too much porn? But is just stopping really the solution? No probably not. The porn is probably a symptom of something else. Anxiety? Or difficulties with your partner? Or Depression. Just stopping watching porn and masturbating will fix none of those things.

The role model for being a man in the West is literally built on top of ignoring your problems, behaving/living your life in a very narrowly proscribed way, and gate keeping others from playing with your toys. Its garbage. It should be burnt to the ground. I think just about everyone knows the foundation is crumbling on some level but so many don't want to look it in the face or they go the complete opposite direction and throw their lot in with the fascist in order to protect the garbage.


Edited by 425nm, 07 December 2018 - 08:04 PM.

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#8 425nm

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:05 PM

Well that ended up being much longer and no doubt somewhat incoherent than I'd have liked.


Edited by 425nm, 07 December 2018 - 08:06 PM.


#9 425nm

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 08:48 PM

Also, briefly. Your brain recycles neurotransmitters including dopamine. You're not going to deplete it by jerking it. Even if you do so for days. You might hit a threshold where you've satiate the reward pathway but that is not the same thing as depleting it. That is the reward system functioning as it should. The evolutionary purpose of the reward systems is to reward things like sleep, sex, eating, exercise, etc. Of course porn is a new-ish (I'm sure there are some sexy caving paintings out there) invention in the grand scheme of time but I just don't think its comparable to something like drugs.
Why do I use drugs as a point of comparison? Because they can actually cause re-uptake inhibition and you can deplete your dopamine if you take enough stimulants because they drug molecules directly cause inhibit of that reuptake.

 

To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence to suggest that porn as a stimulus cannot cause that HOWEVER however however gambling addiction (would be the best point of comparison as it is behavioural and not substance based) does definitely exhibit a complex effect on the reward system and I do mean complex. Its hard to tease apart what caused by the gambling and what is a pre-existing that might predispose one to a behavioral addiction.

 

Final, labeling anything "an addiction" is inherently moralizing be it Scientifically justified or not.
 



#10 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:29 PM

If you took all the girls I knew
When I was single
And brought them all together
For one night
I know they’d never match
My sweet imagination
Everything looks worse
In black and white

 

Paul Simon, Kodakrome



#11 mushit

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Posted 07 December 2018 - 09:41 PM

Holy Shit, 425nm.  That was a whole essay!!  But a good one at that.

 

Alder, i was prescribed Flomax and I did some research on it as well.  After taking it for a week I could feel there was something wrong. Mrs. Shit noticed it as well.  My sex life went down the tubes for a bit so I stopped taking it.  I was ejaculating out my piss pipe.

 

Steam, I have no idea why people have to worry about what other people are doing to their bodies other that they are goddam nosy control freaks!!

If I am watching porn and cumming in the sink, who the fuck else's business is it but my own.  Am I hurting anyone?

If they are so concerned they can come over and watch.  Maybe I will shoot a wad right in their face!!    :eek:


Edited by mushit, 07 December 2018 - 09:41 PM.


#12 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:16 AM

Wow 425nm! I guess I should have looked deeper into this and the evidence and citations for it. Thanks for the info. So you are saying this stuff has some relationship to the "red pill" movement?

It just seemed like these people believe in it. I guess it might work for certain people. I was just offering the idea that perhaps mushrooms would be a quicker way to reboot.

Mushit, I don't think anyone was advocating some sort of attempt at control of anyone's sex life, just a suggestion that might help someone. It might work, it might not. It needs to be tested, and perhaps it has been. I should have checked that actually.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 08 December 2018 - 12:20 AM.

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#13 425nm

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 01:31 AM

I may have come off a little intense earlier. I by no means expect anyone to catch everything all the time. I've definitely taken passing glances at things thinking they seemed reasonable on first blush only to be horrified when I did a bit more research. It happens.

 

I wouldn't out and out say that the Red Pill folks and the NoFap folks are the same but they are of a similar ilk. NoFap's ideas aren't all that far from RedPill and incel (I think the ProudBoys have some weird thing about not jerking it too). Its not much of a jump from "I need to control my sexual urges" to starting to resent the source of those sexual. Pair that with the overall conservative bent of many of them.  On its face the NoFap people don't appear immediately heinous but there does seem to be some cross over. If you google both together you get some interesting stuff. I'd hyperlink out to somethings but I don't necessarily want breadcrumbs back here. There are several threads regarding Redpill on the NoFap forum and sub-reddit. Less love for the incels coming from NoFap.

 

I think NoFap LLC is interested in casting as wide a net as possible to maximize their profits. Hence their rather interesting and evasive list of "what they are not".

However I suspect their primary demographic is sad, angry, frustrated, hetero dudes. Probably not exclusively but probably the majority.

 

As I've said they're certainly speaking to a real social anxiety a lot of people have. Unfortunately many heterosexual men don't feel like they can express insecurity, have some crazy notion about how sex should be, or how much they should want it. Making things more complicated is that his is specifically a self classification of disorder too. These people are joining these forums of their own free will so I have no doubt that they feel like their pornography consumption is out of control. But is that true if we measured their consumption relative to other folks who otherwise feel they don't have an issue?
Evaluating this kind of stuff is very hard. Researching sex at all is extremely hard. People lie through their teeth about their sex lives even to researchers. Sex is something that pretty well every culture has moralized in some way and there is some research that finds that porn has a more negative effect on people who identify with a religion that has very stringent views on sex. There is also research that correlates sexually coercive behavior with pornography consumption however they even point out that its not pornography use in general that seems to be the problem but specific aspects of pornography use.

Parsing the Scientific literature on pornography is hard. There is a lot of stuff behind paywalls, inconsistent methodologies across studies, and seemingly contradictory results. Humans are difficult moving targets that we can't experiment on ethically. Porn today is wildly different than porn even twenty years ago.

 

The podcast Science Vs. did a good episode on more or less this very topic of you'd like a good TL;DR. They even talk to a different group similar to NoFap.

 

Not jerking it for a pro-longed period will most certainly make you real horny. You'll probably get more erections more frequently. It can even be a fun game, lord knows the kink community has known that one for forever (though consensually depriving another of their ability to masturbating is much more fun). Personally I find it quite distracting at a certain point.


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#14 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 07:42 AM

Thanks 425nm, you did your research, and I didn't. Anymore, as you pointed out, it seems more difficult to get to truth, especially on emotionally charged issues. I guess this qualifies.

The thing is what I was reading referred to brain studies and scans of the pleasure centers of the brain, however those things can be cherry-picked, and quote mined, so I will dig into that a lot deeper.

I will stand by my one point however, if you want to "reboot" your brain, our sacraments are certainly one of the best ways.


Edited by SteampunkScientist, 08 December 2018 - 11:37 AM.


#15 mushit

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 10:58 AM

Steam, thanks for your reply.

 

My point was there is a organization called "No-Fap".  I don't think there is any doubt what they are trying to do. 

 

Masturbation has been around since the beginning of living things, and I don't think anything is going to change. :smile:

 

If it affects our brain, I think we are all fucked by now.  Pun intended.  :tongue:


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#16 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 11:40 AM

Ha ha... well, I guess I can see if you want to have a "good long night with your partner" you might abstain for a bit, but after reading a lot more about this - well... wish I had done that before my initial post, but hey, I did learn and that is important. 

 

Now I gotta send this back to amazon.  :tongue:

 

the-anti-masturbation-cross-safely-train-your-children-to-keep-their-3459601.png


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#17 Alder Logs

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 12:13 PM

Anyone here from San Diego?  Here's a highly charged video from their Chamber of Commerce:

 

[Direct Link]

 

I see that the version with the Chargers security man jackin it by the cheerleaders footage has vanished from the web.  

 

On edit:  Thank you for your service, SPS.


Edited by Alder Logs, 08 December 2018 - 03:12 PM.

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#18 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 08 December 2018 - 02:46 PM

Try this one.

 

[Direct Link]


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#19 swayambhu

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Posted 03 January 2019 - 04:49 PM

Seems the problem is porn, not wanking. Mushrooms definitely help me steer clear of porn. I've been wanking for more than 30 years and it hasn't done me a bean of harm, except when I've done it out of boredom or procrastination, and then it has been the boredom or the procrastination that is the problem.

 

I think for voluntary celibates who are pursuing a strict spiritual discipline, the withdrawal from irrelevant sensory indulgence is probably helpful or perhaps even necessary. For the rest of us, beat one out as necessary, be mindful of the balance between your body's needs and your mind's wants, and reject pornography.

 

I absolutely agree with 425nm that NoFap as a movement is very likely to have some broad veins of mysogyny running through it.






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