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PEU and PESA on "Organic Miracle Gro" experiment


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#101 Ferather

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:27 PM

It should do, a media will have a limited amount of usable resources, lets say 25g of carbon and 1g of nitrogen, total, as an example.

 

If fungi [A] utilized 20g of carbon and 0.5g of nitrogen to produce fruit body mass, that leaves 5g C and 0.5g N.

If fungi [B] utilized 10g of carbon and 0.5g of nitrogen to produce actives, that leaves 15g C and 0.5g N.

 

In my mind you get more mass, less actives in low O2 conditions.


Edited by Ferather, 08 February 2019 - 12:28 PM.


#102 Deleena24

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:20 PM

It should do, a media will have a limited amount of usable resources, lets say 25g of carbon and 1g of nitrogen, total, as an example.

If fungi [A] utilized 20g of carbon and 0.5g of nitrogen to produce fruit body mass, that leaves 5g C and 0.5g N.
If fungi [B] utilized 10g of carbon and 0.5g of nitrogen to produce actives, that leaves 15g C and 0.5g N.

In my mind you get more mass, less actives in low O2 conditions.


Don't know, but the other times I've gotten similar sized fruits, they seemed to be just as potent as any other.

I've gotten similar sized fruits in my Martha, too, which has pretty much constant FAE, which I'm assuming means a relatively high amount of oxygen compared to my bag grows or dubtubs.

BTW the huge fruit was a side pin. I dimissed the cracked stem as damage from when it grew against the plastic, then had to change direction from lack of space. I'm no expert, though.

I wish it was easy to get the alkaloid content of mushrooms, especially cubes.

I do know they're very active, though. My buddy said they're (the ones grown on OMG in the dubtub) just as strong as usual, which is very strong lol.

#103 Ferather

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 02:52 PM

I'm not 100% sure what the real answers are, only what I think and some data I am working with. Regardless, more on oxygen, but now with golden oyster.

 

Here I made a WL-Tek block (paper + MG soluble nutrients) with grain spawn, and compared the same block, indoors and outdoors.

The indoor setup had good FAE, you might say lots, but in fact it's medium, and outdoors I got max FAE.

 

IMG_20160729_212252.jpg IMG_20160922_100345.jpg

 

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When KO is grown in low O2 conditions, it fattens up, but produces less colour-other.

Extra data: https://freshcapmush...he-king-oyster/

 

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Reactive oxygen species and antioxidant properties from mushrooms - Has illustrations.

Oxidative stress in industrial fungi - Short version, no illustrations.

 

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Extract from my journal, to help understand active materials (antioxidants):

 

 
Active mycelium:
 
Baeocystin:  [C11]--[H15]--[N2]--[O4]--[P]
Norbaeocystin: [C10]--[H13]--[N2]--[O4]--[P]
 
Psilocybin:  [C12]--[H17]--[N2]--[O4]--[P]
Psilocin:  [C12]--[H16]--[N2]--[O]
 
 
From above:
 
"Psilocybin is a tryptamine compound with a chemical structure containing an indole ring linked to an ethylamine substituent. It is chemically related to the amino acid tryptophan, and is structurally similar to serotonin."
"Psilocybin is a member of the tryptophan-based compounds that originally functioned as antioxidants in earlier life forms before assuming more complex functions in multicellular organisms."
 
"Psilocin is relatively unstable in solution due to its phenolic hydroxy (-OH) group. In the presence of oxygen it readily forms bluish and dark black degradation products"
"Most species of psilocybin-containing mushrooms bruise blue when handled or damaged due to the oxidization of phenolic compounds"
 
"Psilocin is broken down by the enzyme monoamine oxidase. Some psilocin is not broken down, and forms a glucuronide"
 
 
Notes:
 
Nor-baeocystin are analogs of psilocybin, meaning single or various elements are added or removed.
It appears they can be phosphorylated or dephosphorylated (cleaved, added, a cycle?).
All four compounds contain carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen.
 
Serotonin:  [C10]--[H12]--[N2]--[O]
 
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Note, the most potent mushrooms usually produce little mass (thin, small, hollow) and can be wood loving (lignicolous).
Phenols require oxygen and oxygen radicals to decay properly, In my mind this is relative to above.
 
Antioxidants could be considered like wearing gloves to use a hot oven (cooks food).

Edited by Ferather, 08 February 2019 - 04:10 PM.

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#104 Deleena24

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Posted 09 February 2019 - 02:41 PM

Ferather, I really enjoy and respect your posts. They are usually full of science and are very informative. I am in no way disputing any of your results.

I'm just wishing they aren't true, bc large musbrooms are so fun to grow, and are IMO more aesthetically pleasing.

I always believed a high grain spawn ratio and the extra nutrition in bulk substrate there would be enough elemental nutrients to sustain many, potent flushes, no matter the size.

Further research would be great, so we all don't waste our time trying to get big fruits or growing in low oxygen, like bags and invitro.

I suppose as long as they get me where I want to go I shouldn't really worry about it, though.

Edited by Deleena24, 09 February 2019 - 02:43 PM.

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#105 Billcoz

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 03:54 AM

 

That's interesting stuff Ferather, thanks for posting it. 



#106 Ferather

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 08:18 AM

You would need sustainable gourmet conditions (which will have running costs), or try them outdoors when the weather permits it.

In hobby cases an indoor grow would usually result in a mono tub, more because it's cheaper and easier.

 

In most cases you will have little choice (other than spend money) and grow low O2 Cubensis.



#107 raymycoto

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 12:02 PM

Interesting on the O2 content and potency. Playing with different options for spawn jar GE (nothing ( varying spawn to air ratio in the jar), PTFE patches, surgical instrument wrap, micropore (in varying states of gumminess from alcohol and PC)) I have been impressed with spawn's tolerance of what I would have considered, a less than favorable atmosphere - O2 below 5% range but typically around 10-12%. I did one less-than-scientific trial with a few jars preloaded with 100% O2. These were sealed jars with about 10:1 air to spawn volume ratio. I wanted to say that there might have been some improvement in the O2 group (just looking at growth) but it was marginal at best and would not want to make that claim that the O2 was better. Interestingly, on sampling the jars after about 10 days, the O2 was lower in the O2 jars and CO2 higher. Perhaps this is because the O2 content was self limiting with respect to CO2 production. That is, the remainder of the atmosphere, nitrogen could not contribute, of course, to the aerobic metabolism.

 

Sorry, just rambling about some observations. So hard to do any real studies. Almost a full time job to just to learn fundamental concepts at the newbie to intermediate level.



#108 Deleena24

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 02:14 PM

You would need sustainable gourmet conditions (which will have running costs), or try them outdoors when the weather permits it.
In hobby cases an indoor grow would usually result in a mono tub, more because it's cheaper and easier.

In most cases you will have little choice (other than spend money) and grow low O2 Cubensis.


So growing in a Martha with pretty much constant FAE is still considered low O2?

If so I'm assuming by gourmet conditions there is supplemental O2 introduced to the environment?

#109 Ferather

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 03:47 PM

Most martha's will be very similar to a large monotub, you sacrifice high O2 in order to buildup humidity, unless the martha is modified.

Gourmet growers will build a room, or large tent, with various modifications for humidity, air exchange and light.

 

Fruiting_Chamber.png


Edited by Ferather, 10 February 2019 - 03:48 PM.


#110 Deleena24

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 03:56 PM

I got my humidifier running 24/7 fan cycle on for 15min off for 30. One is expelling air on the bottom and one is taking in air at the top.

I also have the whole thing elevated over a 6in tub whose width is about 2ft bigger than the actual Martha. I cover that space with kite grade tyvek and line the bottom with perlite.

It's an unusual setup...I definitely have my fans running much more than the usual Martha. :)

Edited by Deleena24, 10 February 2019 - 03:59 PM.

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#111 Ferather

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 04:20 PM

Sounds like you are good to go, you can clone any big "high O2" fruits, if you get any.

 

:thumbs_up2:



#112 Deleena24

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 05:00 PM

Sounds like you are good to go, you can clone any big "high O2" fruits, if you get any.

:thumbs_up2:


Awesome! My goal with the setup was to provide as close to constant FAE as possible while maintaining humidity. It was meant mostly for exotics who are known to need more FAE than normal.

Any and all of my questions are to learn, not to undermine your opinion. I want to be clear on that because sometimes its hard to gauge if someone is being confrontational or genuine in their questions.

It's nice to get the thumbs up from you that I'm close to doing what I intended. I respect your opinion. I have a feeling you've taken an organic chemistry class or 2.

Another question. Do commercial growers sometimes use supplemental oxygen? As in above the normal <20% we have in the atmosphere?
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#113 raymycoto

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Posted 10 February 2019 - 09:13 PM

  • Take the actual V'O2 for all of what you could even fit into a Martha
  • calculate for even a modest intermittent gas exchange by fan plus the baseline leak of the enclosure

 

You will note that the incremental reduction in O2 in the enclosure is minuscule and below the resolution of any O2 sensor I have seen. I've done the calculations for grins and I'll dig them up. It was at or beyond the 0.01 place in the O2 level, not even to the tenth and certainly not at the single digit level.

 

Change in ambient gas around 'atmospheric' (20.7% O2, 0.3% CO2)  come into play numerically over a long period of time in an enclosure with markedly reduced FAE (jar or bin or a dub tub to lesser extent). Is there some other mysterious factor like air movement, cooling, etc. I don't know.

 

These are all good questions above. I'm not dismissing your discussion at all, just noting things from a strictly mathematical point taking only into account the aforementioned factors. And . . . all these calculations aside, I'm barely average at my successes vs failures. You should see my jar and bin grave yard. :ohmy: Measuring and calculating are just one way I try and make sense of the whole learning process..


Edited by raymycoto, 10 February 2019 - 09:15 PM.

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#114 Deleena24

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 03:23 PM

  • Take the actual V'O2 for all of what you could even fit into a Martha
  • calculate for even a modest intermittent gas exchange by fan plus the baseline leak of the enclosure

You will note that the incremental reduction in O2 in the enclosure is minuscule and below the resolution of any O2 sensor I have seen. I've done the calculations for grins and I'll dig them up. It was at or beyond the 0.01 place in the O2 level, not even to the tenth and certainly not at the single digit level.

Change in ambient gas around 'atmospheric' (20.7% O2, 0.3% CO2) come into play numerically over a long period of time in an enclosure with markedly reduced FAE (jar or bin or a dub tub to lesser extent). Is there some other mysterious factor like air movement, cooling, etc. I don't know.

These are all good questions above. I'm not dismissing your discussion at all, just noting things from a strictly mathematical point taking only into account the aforementioned factors. And . . . all these calculations aside, I'm barely average at my successes vs failures. You should see my jar and bin grave yard. :ohmy: Measuring and calculating are just one way I try and make sense of the whole learning process..</p>

I'd take measurements if I had the tools, sadly I don't.

Honestly, it would be nice to know the exacts, but big or small, invitro or Martha, fanned or not, they do the job. LOL

If pumping additional pure O2 into the FC would benefit, I would love to know so I can do it, but I simply don't have the tools, and I am currently happy with the potency of all my mushrooms, cubensis or exotic.

If someone wants to borrow me the tools, that's a totally different story lolol.

#115 jkdeth

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 03:42 PM

I feel like its just overthinking it. Its worth noting though that commercial edible growers who manage it keep CO2 high during colonization, and reduce it (which increases O2) to induce pinning. That's actually what we're trying to do with FAE.
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#116 raymycoto

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:48 PM

Not saying it would be worth spending the money or effort, but the cheapest option for O2 supply is an O2 concentrator. Sometimes they show up on craigslist cheap or in a garage sale. Sick or old folks might have them, then pass away and they get trashed or given away.



#117 jkdeth

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:51 PM

Lol. I think of those every time I see the commercial for them. Might be a neat trick for pinning in a Martha.

#118 Deleena24

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 04:52 PM

Not saying it would be worth spending the money or effort, but the cheapest option for O2 supply is an O2 concentrator. Sometimes they show up on craigslist cheap or in a garage sale. Sick or old folks might have them, then pass away and they get trashed or given away.


Using one of those was my exact thought. I'd still need a tool to measure concentrations, though.

JKD Yeah, I'm not worrying about it. It would be nice to know, though. I'm not rushing to stop any of my growing methods until someone can prove a very significant boost in potency very thoroughly.

#119 TheArchangel

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:18 PM

Some updated pictures of the tubs I started on Feb 6th.

Obviously the tub from brf (Brazilian pict#1) is far ahead compared to wbs jars (pict#2). I'm stuck with these grain jars but alas the few small fruits I've been able to get from these B+ projects have been very interesting. I hope the issue is with the medium cause I have some LC that I'll use to start some brf jars shortly and hope those get to fruit properly.

 

I started two more tubs, one on Feb9 (GT) and one On feb 10 (Brazilian).

Attached Thumbnails

  • 1.JPG
  • 2.JPG

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#120 Deleena24

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 07:26 PM

Those are both the OMG? Nice.

The bottom pic looks like it has some pretty large pieces of wood...my bag doesn't, but the few pieces that are really big I pick out. Let's see if it makes a difference.

Try not to open them up until they're fully colonized.

Thanks for posting the grow again!

Edited by Deleena24, 11 February 2019 - 07:27 PM.





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