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PEU and PESA on "Organic Miracle Gro Potting Soil" experiment


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#221 417outsiders

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Posted 20 March 2019 - 08:41 PM

I got dry weights for the clones. Sorry for lack of pics. My scale is small and the mushrooms large, so I had to weigh them in several small batches each.
Cracker dry weight for the PF clone on hpoo was about 35g, +/- half a gram.
Cracker dry weight for the PF clone on OMG was 34g, +/- half a gram.
So, even though they were grown with different subs at different temps, different sized fruits and different fresh density, both substrates produced a nearly identical amount of dried material.
What does everyone else get per flush in a shoebox dubtub? I average between 1 and 1.5oz cracker dry per flush for the ones I actually measure, and toss after 3 flushes. I assume that's pretty good, but I dont weigh many of my harvests so I'm not sure.


IMG_20190320_192930.jpg
This is a pic of my 2nd flush from my 50/50 tub. The first one was 29 grams cracker dry. My 100% OMG tub's first flush was 32 grams, but got contaminated and had to be tossed. Will update on weight of this one as soon as dryer.
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#222 Deleena24

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 12:07 PM

Nice what's the strain?

#223 417outsiders

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Posted 23 March 2019 - 05:10 PM

Nice what's the strain?


Cambodian
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#224 Ferather

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 05:43 PM

They grew quite big, congratz. Shame the O-MG contaminated. If you are willing to experiment, you could buy organic fertilizer and enrich a media in place of the O-MG.

The idea is to present the spawn with a complex carbon source, such as cellulose. This reduces contamination vectors, enough that open air is possible.

 

You can use various base medias, usually they are considered 'cold' or low in nitrogen, such as coir, paper, wood (peat if the pH is modified).

 

Coir is about 4x richer in nitrogen than wood, paper, and similar to some straw. Wood: 0.1%, Coir ~0.4%, Straw: 0.5-0.8%.

 

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http://www.homecompo...ogenratio.html  < Carbon-to-Nitrogen ratio, about 25-30:1.

 

When measuring how much fertilizer to add, you should work with 100g for easier measurements. Lets say 100g of coir as an example.

100g of coir contains about 0.4% nitrogen, it also contains about 45% carbon, that's 45 / 0.4 = 113:1 carbon:nitrogen.

 

We will go with 30:1, so you would need to add 1.1g of nitrogen (0.4 + 1.1 = 1.5  ||  45 / 1.5 = 30:1).

 

Fertilizers will have a label that will be something like 24:8:16 or 24-8-16, this means how much % is N-P-K (nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium).

So 100g of 24:8:16 = 24g of nitrogen, 8g of phosphorus, 16g of potassium. So 5g of fertilizer will add: 1.2g N, 0.4g P, 0.8g K.

 

100g of coir + 5g = 105g, total N is: [0.4 (the coir) + 1.2g (the fertilizer)] = 1.6g, slightly over, but probably lost when cooked.

 

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Note: Not all soluble fertilizers contain a complete array of macro-micro nutrients, and mixing may be needed (some are safe to mix).

 

Soil Amendments and Fertilizers

 

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Extract from my journal:

 

Paper, dry, average, 100g  |  Carbon: 42g (42%)  |  Nitrogen: 0.24g (0.24%)  |  42 / 0.24 = 175:1.
Wood, dry, average, 100g  |  Carbon: 50g (50%)  |  Nitrogen: 0.10g (0.10%)  |  50 / 0.10 = 500:1.
Coir, dry, average, 100g  |  Carbon: 45g (45%)  |  Nitrogen: 0.40g (0.40%)  |  45 / 0.40 = 113:1.

Edited by Ferather, 24 March 2019 - 05:47 PM.

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#225 Bobotrank

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 10:04 PM

So coir for the win? Do you need to use a full spectrum fert, or could you use a nitrogen only source? Or is that not giving them the full spectrum of constituents that might be beneficial? Am I even on the right train of thought here?

From my recollection, using a soil like Fox Farm, or even the vermifire that I plan on using (I will pasteurize, not microwave sterilize, likely), you’re using a coir based medium that has been heavily amended. Vermifire especially is hotter than Fox Farm. And again, from recollection, I think Deleena said OMG had some coir, but wasn’t coir based. Would the FF or VF be a better off the shelf purchase than OMG? Sorry for a million questions. Just wasn’t to understand this concept, as the idea of buying bulk substrate at my local garden store sounds easier than ordering off the internet, which I’ll likely continue doing for the sake of time ATM.

#226 jkdeth

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 10:32 PM

Two sides to it. When you're spawning as heavy as we are, there's enough nutrients in the spawn to carry the grow. Straight coir will work. Straight vermiculite 1:1 will work, though it may give you a reduced overall yield.

One the other hand, they do respond well to a broad spectrum of nutrients, including micronutrients, minerals and trace minerals, etc.

#227 vertygo

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Posted 24 March 2019 - 10:40 PM

Do you think this method could be used for a large monotub or should it stick more to the dub tub style ?



#228 Deleena24

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:46 AM

Do you think this method could be used for a large monotub or should it stick more to the dub tub style ?


I've never scaled up to anything bigger. Try it out, it should work. Post results :)

And sorry for the absence, I'm in the middle of a move. My grow room has been disassembled and all projects on hold until after April 2nd, except for 1 PEU tub. I used a super high spawn ratio, 1.5 to 1 spawn to bulk. It colonized fully in 3 days, should be pinning any minute.

I have a bunch of spawn sitting in the fridge, so I'll post those as they're used. I will be starting a ton of outdoor projects, too. Cya soon!
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#229 Bobotrank

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:57 AM

Good luck with the move.

#230 Ferather

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:25 AM

@ Bobotrank

 

Not quite full spectrum with coir, while it contains more nitrogen, it also starts with a large amount of sodium and potassium. Coir is usually pre-treated before use for growing for this reason (see here).

This makes measuring a little less easy with coir, however paper pellets are just as 'open' in structure, and should only have high levels of calcium (CaCO3), which is completely safe.

 

If you stick to complex carbon sources, adding the fertilizer should make a media that is as nutritional as 100% grain, which is starch based (contaminates easier).

Grains contain much more than just starch, they are built to start a new life, they contain all the essential nutrients such as vitamins and minerals.

 

https://frida.foodda...od/156?lang=en < Brown rice, raw. Notice the nitrogen and other components present (and amounts).

 

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@ jkdeth

 

You are correct(ish), 50-50 is enough as a media, but I always find bits of grain at the end, which means not all of it was spent as you measure.

In addition, it's cheaper to use less spawn, and enrich the media. The reason is the price of grain in comparison to by-product bran.

 

In my case, I use other materials, as bran contains bio-available starch, which I would rather not add to cellulose.

Also note, true 50-50 is done by dry weight, for example: 100g of dry grain and 100g of dry coir.

 

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Extract from my journal:

 

What bran composition (per 100g)  |  Carbon: 28g (28%)  |  Nitrogen: 2.56g (2.56%).
 
Paper + bran:
 
100g coir + 100g bran = 200g  |  42 + 28 = 70, / 2.00 = [35% carbon]  |  0.24 + 2.56 = 2.80, / 2.00 = [1.40% nitrogen]  |  35 / 1.40 = [25:1].
100g coir + 75g bran = 175g  |  42 + 21 = 63, / 1.75 =  [36% carbon]  |  0.24 + 1.92 = 2.16, / 1.75 = [1.23% nitrogen]  |  36 / 1.23 = [29:1].
100g coir + 50g bran = 150g  |  42 + 14 = 56, / 1.50 = [37% carbon]  |  0.24 + 1.28 = 1.52, / 1.50 = [1.01% nitrogen]  |  37 / 1.01 = [37:1].
100g coir + 25g bran = 125g  |  42 + 7 = 49, / 1.25 = [39% carbon]  |  0.24 + 0.64 = 0.88, / 1.25 = [0.70% nitrogen]  |  39 / 0.70 = [56:1].
 
Wood + bran:
 
100g wood + 100g bran = 200g  |  50 + 28 = 78, / 2.00 = [39% carbon]  |  0.1 + 2.56 = 2.66, / 2.00 = [1.33% nitrogen]  |  39 / 1.33 = [29:1].
100g wood + 75g bran = 175g  |  50 + 21 = 71, / 1.75 =  [41% carbon]  |  0.1 + 1.92 = 2.02, / 1.75 = [1.15% nitrogen]  |  41 / 1.15 = [36:1].
100g wood + 50g bran = 150g  |  50 + 14 = 64, / 1.50 = [43% carbon]  |  0.1 + 1.28 = 1.38, / 1.50 = [0.92% nitrogen]  |  43 / 0.92 = [47:1].
100g wood + 25g bran = 125g  |  50 + 7 = 57, / 1.25 = [46% carbon]  |  0.1 + 0.64 = 0.74, / 1.25 = [0.59% nitrogen]  |  46 / 0.59 = [78:1].
 
Coir + bran:
 
100g coir + 100g bran = 200g  |  45 + 28 = 73, / 2.00 = [37% carbon]  |  0.4 + 2.56 = 2.96, / 2.00 = [1.48% nitrogen]  |  37 / 1.48 = [25:1].
100g coir + 75g bran = 175g  |  45 + 21 = 66, / 1.75 =  [38% carbon]  |  0.4 + 1.92 = 2.32, / 1.75 = [1.33% nitrogen]  |  38 / 1.33 = [29:1].
100g coir + 50g bran = 150g  |  45 + 14 = 59, / 1.50 = [39% carbon]  |  0.4 + 1.28 = 1.68, / 1.50 = [1.12% nitrogen]  |  39 / 1.12 = [35:1].
100g coir + 25g bran = 125g  |  45 + 7 = 52, / 1.25 = [42% carbon]  |  0.4 + 0.64 = 1.04, / 1.25 = [0.83% nitrogen]  |  42 / 0.83 = [51:1].
 
Note: For cellulose and starch it's total amount - 56%, Example: 64g - 56%.

Edited by Ferather, 25 March 2019 - 11:57 AM.

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#231 Billcoz

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 12:51 PM

So what about using something like General Hydro brand 3 part Flora plant nutes in the pasteurization water? 



#232 Ferather

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 01:35 PM

Flora Series (Edit: weblink was being weird) < Is this what you mean? If so it's a liquid and already diluted, and you will need quite a lot more than my example 5g (concentrated soluble salt).

Yes you would add it to your water before adding that to the coir, I'm not so sure it's strong enough, unless the label measurement is after adding water.

 

I am using inorganic fertilizers, this my choice, and I know the mycelium do not care, but many of you will prefer organic versions.

The fertilizer is good, but does not carry all of the essential nutrients, so I also add yeast nutrient (or yeast fertilizer).

 

1kg of MG is around £3, and 50g of YN is around £1, thankfully the YN is super concentrated.

 

IMG_20160718_170209.jpg IMG_20160718_170210.jpg IMG_20160718_170317.jpg IMG_20160718_170454.jpg

 

 

Recipes:
 
Lignicolous: 600g > Water | 100g > Paper Pellets | 50g > Wood Pellets | 6g > MG Nutrients | 0.72g > YN Nutrients.
General: 500g > Water | 125g > Paper Pellets | 5g > MG Nutrients | 0.6g > YN Nutrients.

 

Note: The water amount being used is pre-microwave, where some is lost.

 

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MG.png


Edited by Ferather, 25 March 2019 - 01:55 PM.

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#233 Billcoz

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 06:39 PM

No no, Gen Hydro is a brand of liquid hydroponic plant food, "grow"= 2-1-6(NPK), "micro"=5-0-1, "bloom"=0-5-4.

01_FloraGro_pint.png?format=300w02_FloraMicro_Quart.png?format=300w03_FloraBloom_Gallon.png?format=300w

I have a bunch of other nutes and additives too, like 4 part Earth Juice brand "sea blast" water soluble powder, I forget the npk for it. 



#234 Billcoz

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 07:16 PM

I saw this ad on ebay a while back for something called "Myco-Blast" grain-spawn nutrient recharger, made to spray the colonized grain during spawning/mixing with sub. The ingredients include plant rooting hormone(indole-3-butyric acid), vitamins and minerals. I have a shit ton of plant rooting hormone, but would it actually be beneficial to shrooms? 

 

Here's the description from the seller-

 

 This is our Myco-Blast mycelium booster.  This has been developed for rehydration of grain spawn before transfer to bulk substrate. Our Myco-Blast formula  was designed to increase yield and chemical production. This is done by supplementing essential minerals and vitamins at the most critical time THE SPAWN RUN!

 
 Typically Soaking was done to rehydrate the cube or cyan grain prior to adding to bulk substrate. However, this did nothing to fuel the mycelium in it most case's when draining mycelium was lost and this tek stunned the mycelium. With our Myco-blast we not only rehydrate but add the necessary vitamins and minerals with no impact to the mycelium.
 
  By misting both the mycelium and substrate at the same time this cause's less damage to the mycelium and prepares the substrate for colonization.
 
 By adding these nutrients at this time we have seen in our Maitake study the increase of polysaccharide beta-glucan from 0.1% to a increase of 0.3% at a steady rate. Polysaccharide is shown in studies in japan to possess antitumor activity.
 
 With our cube grow we have seen increased yield and chemical compound production as well as a faster colonization rate partly due to the indole-3-butyric acid dilute.

 

What do you guys think?


Edited by Billcoz, 25 March 2019 - 07:17 PM.


#235 DreamingRaven

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 07:26 PM

 Flora Series is NOT diluted, put too many mL of that in your hydro heart bucket and you'll burn them up, pour it directly into soil and the results will be quite catastrophic for plants , never thought of adding it to the hydration water for coir before hmmm :meditate:


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#236 Ferather

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 07:49 PM

Must be after water is added then, those numbers are quite low in comparison to what I am working with. Stick with what you have or know, and test small samples with a tiny bit of spawn.

Around 25g-40g of dry coir should be enough for a 400ml container when hydrated, you can then test various additive amounts or mixes, and then compare them.

 

Once you are happy with a recipe, you can upscale the project to more of a tub, likely needing a small adjustment for bulk.


Edited by Ferather, 25 March 2019 - 07:51 PM.


#237 Billcoz

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 07:51 PM

 Flora Series is NOT diluted, put too many mL of that in your hydro heart bucket and you'll burn them up, pour it directly into soil and the results will be quite catastrophic for plants , never thought of adding it to the hydration water for coir before hmmm :meditate:

Yeah you gotta mix it with water and adjust ph. I am wondering if it might add usable nutes to a substrate mix, I would boil a gallon of water, mix the nutes in, then add gypsum to raise ph some, then hydrate/expand the coir brick/verm in a bucket. IDK if the water being near boiling would have any negative effects. I also have rooting powder(indole-3-butyric acid), which is in the "mycelium booster" spray I posted about above.



#238 Ferather

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 07:56 PM

Gypsum does not raise pH, its almost neutral in pH it's self. You will want horticultural lime, or any lime, CaCO3 so on.

 

Good luck to you.


Edited by Ferather, 25 March 2019 - 07:58 PM.


#239 Billcoz

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 07:59 PM

Must be after water is added then, those numbers are quite low in comparison to what I am working with. Stick with what you have or know, and test small samples with a tiny bit of spawn.

Around 25g-40g of dry coir should be enough for a 400ml container when hydrated, you can then test various additive amounts or mixes, and then compare them.

 

Once you are happy with a recipe, you can upscale the project to more of a tub, likely needed a small adjustment for bulk.

Yes, the GH is a hydroponic nutrient, and not very "hot"so you have to use other additives, like cal-mag(for plants). I have some vitamin/hormone additives, kelp extracts, humic/fulvic, rooting powder/gel and more.

 

Another plant food I have is Earth Juice brand water soluble, it's a 4 part that is a LOT hotter than the hydro-nutes,

"grow"= 17-8-17(NPK), "transition"= 8-32-14, "bloom"= 3-26-22, and "bloom master(booster)"= 0-50-30. It's a 4-part so you can customize the profile.


Edited by Billcoz, 25 March 2019 - 08:00 PM.


#240 Billcoz

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 08:03 PM

Gypsum does not raise pH, its almost neutral in pH it's self. You will want horticultural lime, or any lime, CaCO3 so on.

 

Good luck to you.

Gypsum will raise ph from acidic to less acidic will it not? I thought it did anyways

The hydro nutes lower it to around 4 or less.


Edited by Billcoz, 25 March 2019 - 08:04 PM.





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