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Anyone got a Wheat Berry No-Soak Tek?


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#1 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 07:46 PM

What's the best way to do Wheat or Rye berries without a 24 hour soak. I'm trying to avoid that yeasty water smell on my grains.

Should I just boil until the center is clear? Then jar up and PC 90 @ 15psi

OR

Or should I follow the usual popcorn Tek by PCing for 40-50 minutes. Then jar up and PC 90 @ 15 PSI

OR

Should I just reduce the pre-soak to 12 hours from 24 hours? Then bring to boil for 10 min, strain, jar, PC 90min @ 15psi

OR

Is there a better method?

It drives me crazy that my wheat berries end up having a funky smell after a 24 hour pre-soak. Then that smell travels with it for the life of the grow. It's like a fermentation/yeast/old warm nattie light smell. This is before I even innoculate. The mycellium seems to grow fine but I want to know my options.

Are heat resistant Endo-spores really that big of a problem in grains thus requiring a mandatory 24 Pre-soak? Or could I skip the pre-soak, boil longer, then jar/pc?

I want to get some grain going tonight so let me know what you folks think.

Thanks,
MM

#2 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:12 PM

I used to grow with the old Oss & Oeric method. They recommend mixing 160 ml of rye and 130 ml of water in each jar, with an optional dash of calcium carbonate. The jars are put straight in the pressure cooker for one hour, and that's it.

 

It's been a while since I did it this way, but as I recall contamination rates were not very high. However, the spawn was more difficult to shake than the jars I now prepare with a 24 hr presoak, ten minute boil & 90 minutes in the PC. 


Edited by WalkingCatfish, 06 January 2019 - 08:19 PM.

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#3 bezevo

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:23 PM

ok i asked this very question recently and . i took some notes.....hummm  lets see

 

ok note book says

 

no prep grain...for every Half cup of grain wheat , oats or rye berry , ad 1/3 cup water . pc 90 min 15 psi ..  open as soon as cool enough but jars still hot use two oven mitts and really vigorously shake each jar to thoroughly  mix the wetter grains with dryer grains continue to shake jars ,.by the time they cool the moisture should be evenly distributed  .you will get a great Jack Lalain approved work out.

 

thats what i wrote down , i have not done this yet

 

walking cat fishes suggestion of some calcium carbonate sounds like a good option


Edited by bezevo, 06 January 2019 - 10:25 PM.
typo corrected from my sharing this.

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#4 Deleena24

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:38 PM

The above will prob work, but I prefer prep methods.

Lower soak to 12 or 16 hrs with plenty of gypsum, up the simmer to 20 minutes to half hr, even 40 min. You shoul be able to easily split the oat between your nail and thumb, dry while still hot, 90 min PC.

The no prep methods usually require you to shake after removal from the PC every half hr or so while its cooling, otherwise they clump together.

I find the cleaner the grain before PC, the better it colonizes..

#5 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 08:46 PM

I've been skiddish in trying the all in the jar techniques for fear of over hydrating.

I really want to do a straight boil to Jar/PC OR a double PC prep were you PC for 20 min in the bottom of the cooker then jar it up and PC for the standard 90 min (kinda like popcorn but less time).

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is will I run into more contamination issues if I don't pre-soak. I'm confident I can get the moisture content down regardless of tek. It those damn inner grain Endo-spores that worry me.

#6 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:02 PM

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is will I run into more contamination issues if I don't pre-soak. I'm confident I can get the moisture content down regardless of tek. It those damn inner grain Endo-spores that worry me.

If it's a problem at all, it's not a very severe one. As I mentioned, when I used the in-jar method, my success rate was pretty good. I do remember occasionally running into a slimy yellowish bacterium that smelled like apples.  Increasing PC time from an hour to 90 or 120 minutes would probably have eliminated the nuisance.


Edited by WalkingCatfish, 06 January 2019 - 09:03 PM.


#7 Deleena24

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:11 PM

A longer PC hydration time would work, but getting it 100% right will take some trial and error.

Can you post a pic of the grain? Maybe next to a coin so I can see how big your berries are? It can be the difference between a 20min PC time and a 40 min PC time...

First try a very low time, like 16 minutes, let the PC totally lose pressure, then check if you can split the grain between your nail and finger. If not, go another 15 min, cool, then check grain. If this first checking session takes at more than 2 sessions of 15 min (timing starts when PSI gets to 15), then you know next section to go at least 25 or 30 minutes before checking the grain. Use gypsum! It really helps with stickiness and clumping if you dont get the hydration just perfect.

Make sure you dry while hot, and dry enough so they look and feel almost completely dry. If they're properly hydrated, this is the best way for them to be PCed.

#8 Deleena24

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:20 PM

Also, the no soak no simmer methods only work well for me with very clean grains, or dirty ones like WBS need like a 20min rinse, otherwise they're too sticky and dirty.

RGS works very well for no prep, too.

Fill whatever jar you use halfway, then slowly fill with water until it comes halfway up the grain, not half the amount of the grain. Big difference. Add a teaspoon of gypsum, you can get away with much more.After the PC the jar will be 3/4 full.

So, for example, you fill up the jar to the 500ml mark with RGS. That means you very slowly add water to the jar after the RGS until the water reaches the 250ml mark. That's different than using 250ml of water and 500ml of seed. It would be way too much water that way.

Same method works well with CLEAN WBS. I PC for 110min when doing these no prep methods. And shake them while they're still warm so they dont clump. Most people do the regular 90 but I get paranoid. LoL

#9 coorsmikey

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:52 PM

What a bunch of Hpoo!. I almost did it today but got lazy. I will write up a fresh No Prep tek tomorrow. I will use wheat and oats. Take pics. Put all these opinions and regurgitated speculation to rest. In chat everyone has been asking me to do this anyway. Heck maybe I will continue the thread into spores to fruits in 3-4 weeks. Super simple shit that will make everyone want to ditch their smocks and gloves. I will not speak of WBS though, that stinky crap is taboo in my house.


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#10 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:52 PM

I don't mind the rinse. I rinse all grains regardless of type. I want to reduce or eliminate the 24 hour soak.

I'm done researching the only way to learn is to just do it.

I'm gonna rock a boil to Jar/PC Tek. Im going to start with 25-30 min rolling boil then take it just under a boil (really hot water) till I get the hydration correct. What I learned from my Orissa on hard undercooked popcorn is there seems to be a fairly reasonable range for optimum growth.

I have a tendency to eat the grain while I cooking it lol. I kind of like the taste. I'm going to try my best to get it to my usual soft with a clear chewy center... Maybe even a stage just before this. I'll play it by ear and see what I end up with lol.

We'll see how it goes.

Thanks everyone
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#11 raymycoto

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 09:59 PM

I have a one jar tech for oats (what I use) that I have worked hard to 'perfect' (IME, your mileage may vary). Have a lot of irons in the fire but I want to do a really nice write up on it bc lots of folks use oats. I can get an exact hydration ratio and nice, 'dry' looking but plump and non sticky grain. I do quart jars that turn out about 70% full.

 

It's not fast like "you'll have your jars ready in a few hours" but it's predictable and the total amount of equipment, kitchen mess and actual hands-on time is quite reduced over soak, boil, drain, fan, guess, PC.

 

By all standards, I'm still a newbie so the tech may not be a winner for everyone.

 

This is for whole oats from TSC and I'm simplifying the process and the rationale, but it's basically

 

  • quart jar - add:
  • X - grams of whole oats (mine are 9% water as in W/(W+G) = 0.09) I use 220 gm oats.
  • 0.9 X - grams of tap water boiling (198 gm water - ha ha you can round it off to 200 gm if you dare!!)
  • tsp gypsum
  • trace cow poop (my choice), not needed

 

Place lid onto the jar.

 

shake shake shake - wear work gloves - it's hot

 

repeat x 8 jars - yow! you thought you didn't need gloves - nope!

 

Back lid off 1/4 turn (some looseness)

 

place in microwave in a circle with jars touching - do 4 at a time if yours cannot accommodate

microwave x 16 minutes on high (are you sure you loosened the lids? (insert worried emoticon here - mine won't insert)

You prolly need a rotating carousel in the microwave.

 

Close the lids after microwaving.

 

shake shake shake - Yow, you better have those gloves! They're smokin' hot now. Don't do this in your underwear. Break one and you're goin' to the burn unit and gonna have to think up a creative story.

 

I use an IR cheap pyrometer to check the jars and like to see them hit 190F at the mid to base of the jar (if you need to cal your microwave)

 

You can let them rest or not. I place on the side if I do, providing more surface area for the dependent water.

 

(Have tried resting them overnight and the net effect is no different.)

 

Loosen lids as before.

 

PC x 2 hrs at 240F. I backed off just a bit from 250 to reduce carmelization although don't worry about it. My big sterilizer oscillates a bit above set temp.

 

Let cool in the PC or you can remove while hot but either way, seal the lids ASAP. With new lids, they should autoseal but I have some crummy lids (ideas on restoring a 'used' lid - can I add some more of that red goop?)

 

Oops you will note that the bottom grain is juicier than the top and a bit sticky and there is tons of wetness - just what you did not want. Now shake and bump - you will get a good mix with still perhaps a few clumps but have no fear.

 

You didn't overfill the jars did you, greedy one? The extra space is a sort of insurance policy - better mixing at this stage and later, more air for metabolism, room for additions like G2G.

 

Wait overnight. Bump and shake again. Hey they are looking better but maybe still a tendency towards dependent wetness and still some wet on the glass - not good to see that still.  Hmmm . . . occasional stickiness, clumps, wetness. Why did I listen to that guy?

 

Keep the faith!

 

When you pass by them in the next 24 hrs bump and shake again at your convenience. By the next day, Hey this is looking better - almost no wetness. Homogenous, plump grain.  You could use it now. But it will get better!

 

But they will even mature a bit more and become awesome, plump, stick-free, non-contam grain jars. Put a date on them. I have some from weeks to months old but always use the oldest first. I've done around 40-50 in this experimental process and had maybe one contam and I'm sure it's because of a crappy lid (I'm talking 'bout the lid / band system). I'm cheap and can hardly bare to throw out a worn lid and save them for when I don't need a good seal in another application but they do occasionally slip into my grain jar assembly line.

 

Now, could you adapt to wheat or rye or whatever? I can't see why this would not work but you would have to test it. Water ratio idea would be spot on as above but perhaps there may be a hydration issue that could cause undue stickiness that would not resolve. Don't know.  Try the above recipe with just 4 jars and your grain and let us know.

I have tried WBS 'cause I have a bunch although I no longer use it. Too inhomogenous for my taste. I tried it and it retained some clumps and had some overhydrated stuff so I pursued it no further.

 

I do have a bit of wheat and will try a couple jars o' wheat next time.

 

Well, I know it sounds like a lot of fiddlin' with the jars but there is no big ol' pot of grain to boil, attend to, strain, fan (I always had to fan my boiled grain to get to the right hydration - big tarp in the middle of the kitchen. Big PITA but I'm sure there is some precise amount of time to boil and get just the right ratio.  The hydration ratio of the jar tech is always exact (if it matters) - for quarts I like 50% (W/(W+G)) or 45% if I'm gonna do LC but that's splitting hairs.

 

Well, I ended writing up most of it anyway. I got pics and a few more details but you got the basic idea.

 

Let me know if you try it and your experience.


Edited by raymycoto, 06 January 2019 - 10:01 PM.


#12 onediadem

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:09 PM

I have never pre-cooked anything. Always a load and go kinda grower.


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#13 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:21 PM

Damn ray your write up is like a science project lol. Good info nonetheless. I just put my open PC on my propane stove. So we will see what kind of mess I create lol. Here is what's currently in the works.

-Rinse Hard Red Wheat Berries w/ Tap Water
-Drain
-Fill open cooker w/ Distilled Water
-Boil on Propane stove for 30min
-Check where I'm at in terms of Hydration
-Reduce heat to just under boiling
-Achieve just a tad under proper hydration
-Remove & Strain
-Do the Napkin/Toilet Paper test
-(Optional) Add Vermiculite if I'm over hydrated/too starchy
-Wait for it to stop steaming
-Put into Myco Bags
-Remove air & Impulse Seal
-Pressure Cook 90 min at 15psi
-Remove from heat
-Clean Up
-Leave Sterile Grain outside overnight to cool

In a perfect world this Tek would work. Currently on step 4. LoL, we'll see what happens.

Edited by MysticalMyco, 06 January 2019 - 10:27 PM.


#14 coorsmikey

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:21 PM

ok i asked this very question recently and . i took some notes.....hummm  lets see
 
ok note book says
 
no prep grain...for every Half cup of grain wheat , oats or rye berry , ad 1/3 cup water . pc 90 min 15 psi ..  open as soon as cool enough but jars still hot use two oven mits and really vigorously shake each jar to thoroughly  mix the wetter grains with dryer grains .buy the time they cool the moisture should be evenly distributed  .
 
thats what i wrote down , i have not done this yet
 
walking cat fishs suggestion of some calcium carbinate sounds like a good option


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#15 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 10:38 PM

Heck I might not even need a full 30 minute it's starting to get a soft exterior but still a hard core. This method kind of reminds me like I'm making pasta or something and right now my pasta is 'Al Dente' =)

#16 raymycoto

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:17 PM

 

ok i asked this very question recently and . i took some notes.....hummm  lets see
 
ok note book says
 
no prep grain...for every Half cup of grain wheat , oats or rye berry , ad 1/3 cup water . pc 90 min 15 psi ..  open as soon as cool enough but jars still hot use two oven mits and really vigorously shake each jar to thoroughly  mix the wetter grains with dryer grains .buy the time they cool the moisture should be evenly distributed  .
 
thats what i wrote down , i have not done this yet
 
walking cat fishs suggestion of some calcium carbinate sounds like a good option

 

 

Thanks, CM. I may have reinvented the wheel. I'll weigh some grain soon and see what ratio that is in terms of grams. Sounds about right. I might be able to skip the microwave step. I think I did and had slightly less appealing results. I'll try a couple jars sans microwave next time. Would be great to skip it. In any case, using hot water and microwave is a fairly benign process if it turns out to be beneficial.

 

In any case, MM, the key with the single jar tech whatever it may be is to have the right ratio of water to grain in the jar. Presumably all that water will absorb into all the grain evenly leaving no wetness. Won't go anywhere else. A question that might remain is whether there is a net water gain or loss in the PC.

 

Mine was observed to be a loss of 5-6 gm in a quart jar, representing about 2.5% of the total water content or 1.25% of the grain hydration ratio number. Others might have a different change in their PC but I'm gonna say it's non-significant.



#17 raymycoto

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:23 PM

BTW, you don't need DW, unless your water is just horrible, I guess. Any potable water will do. Any chlorine won't survive PC. Any minerals are only a plus. Any microbes will be toast. Other toxins? If your drinking water is that bad then what you put in your grain jars is the least of concern.

 

Just tryin' to save you a few $. The only application for DW I have is in the autoclave or perhaps in the humidifier since it will reduce crustiness in the martha or whatever. But RO water at 60psi residential water pressure is 90% demineralized if you choose to use that.



#18 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:26 PM

So far what I'm doing listed ^^^^above^^^^ seems to be working just fine. That not to say there won't be problems on a microscopic level with Endo-spores and contams down the line but in terms of Hydration skipping the pre-soak and going straight to hydrating works fine.

I'm giving it another 5 minutes then pulling it off the heat and straining.

Edited by MysticalMyco, 06 January 2019 - 11:26 PM.

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#19 MysticalMyco

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:37 PM

I use distilled water because my water is untreated well water which we use for showers and cleaning dishes. It is exceptionally hard water super high iron content and I don't trust the pipes bringing running through the house after years of wierd well water running through it. It would be different if it was treated but we don't treat it.

I don't want to take any chances that microbes would suck up into the grains and survive the sterilization process because they are deep inside the grain.

Edited by MysticalMyco, 06 January 2019 - 11:38 PM.


#20 raymycoto

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Posted 06 January 2019 - 11:44 PM

Cool. A great discovery I found (on this forum) is using a paint strainer bag (2 for $5 home depot) over a 5 gal bucket to strain your grain. Then take a rope and tie the top of the bag at the opening and hang it either outside or inside above the bucket for a few hrs. During the process it will cool, absorb a bit more water and the bottom of the bag will be a bit wetter but not by much. Then i usually put mine onto a tarp (I did a bunch when I did it that way) and shuffled it around under a fan until I could pick up a handful, drop it and none stuck to my hand. Got to keep mixing it, though. But If you boiled the grain just right then I presume it would come out of the strainer bag just right without the drying process. Then you put into jars and PC with any gypsum or additives.

 

And you don't have to rinse the grain. I did trials with and without a rinse. No net effect on stickiness if that is what it's supposed to do. Although it's easy enough to rinse if you want to and it does cool the grain.

 

And re DW vs other, I understand but have faith in proper sterilization! An hour or more at 15 PC will truly kill anything.

 

That's all that stands between you and an unsterile surgical instrument, a process that truly has survived the test of time for at least 100 years and is tested a bazillion times daily with spore tests in autoclaves with most hospital steam autoclave runs. They throw an ampule of resistant bacterial spores into the autoclave with the instrument packs. The ampule is then popped into a very sensitive reader that can detect any metabolic process from the spores in a matter of just an hour or so. They also run a control as well that should come up positive to make sure the reader is working. By the time the instruments have cooled, the spore test is done.


Edited by raymycoto, 06 January 2019 - 11:52 PM.





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