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Say What??? Vikings and Chinese both beat Native Americans to the continent???


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#1 PJammer24

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 12:59 PM

So... F#*k InstaFace but I am currently in an argument with a fellow who has named B#@A Plur who is adamant about both the Vikings and Chinese being in the Americas prior to Native Americans coming across the "land bridge" from Siberia... 

 

First of all, the idea that Native Americans came to the new world is being replaced with the concept that they migrated down the coast. Some may have come across land but the thinking is that the resources to make the journey would have been scarce and that the coast would have provided the resources needed. There are also groups of indigenous peoples in Canada whose oral traditions speak of a migration down the coast and by water.

 

2nd, the vikings are thought to be the first Europeans to get here and that was around the year 1000AD.

 

There is a mostly debunked book that suggests the Chinese got here in the early 1400s approximately 70 years before Columbus. The theory is based on a single map that supposedly depicts the world discovered by Zheng Hi and his expeditions.

 

Native Americans arrived here 14,000+ years ago... Clearly that was before any of these other expeditions...

 

He also argues that Native Americans aren't indigenous to the Americas because they migrated here from Siberia... I am willing to accept this assertion if and only if he is suggesting that humans are ONLY indigenous to Africa since current data suggests that all humans originally migrated from the African continent and more precisely southern Africa...

 

According to him, none of what I presented above is "remotely historically accurate".... History as we understand it is constantly in flux and new evidence can turn accepted truths on their head overnight, but with current evidence, this is the generally accepted history of the Americas according to respected historians who are not crack pots...

 

If this is all wrong, I really regret studying history and have a bone to pick with my professors...

 

I just needed to vent, he got me a little worked up....

 

Peace Love Unity Respect my friends!


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#2 Coopdog

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:22 PM

When and IF our actual history ever comes to light, we are gonna have a LOT of bones topick I think. The burning of the libraries on Alexandria was a crime against humanity, and who knows what they have found that they are supressing, and I truly believe they are suppressing knowledge from us. It's just not right and I think it is because it would turn their entire paradigm upside down. 


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#3 swayambhu

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 01:57 PM

The americas before colombus= loads of Indians, no vikings, no Chinese.
More interesting to me is whether civilizations in the americas were as isolated from those on the other side of the Atlantic and Pacific. Fascinating stuff.

#4 PJammer24

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 02:19 PM

The americas before colombus= loads of Indians, no vikings, no Chinese.
More interesting to me is whether civilizations in the americas were as isolated from those on the other side of the Atlantic and Pacific. Fascinating stuff.

 

The vikings beat Columbus to the Americas by about 400 years. They got here in the late 10th, early 11th century... Columbus got here in the late 15th century..

 

There was a book written that said the Chinese beat Columbus here by 70 years and arrived around the year 1420 but the book has been mostly debunked.

 

The vikings didn't colonize but they were definitely here before Columbus. There is evidence of a settlement in Nova Scotia that was abandoned some time before Columbus arrived...  What they taught us in school about Columbus discovering the Americas and being the first one here is poppycock...

 

I don't know what you mean by civilizations being "isolated" There has been trade between cultures across vast distances for thousands of years.. More than 20,000 years ago in Mesopotamia there was trade between cultures...

 

A more recent example of ancient trade is the silk road which connected Europe with Asia 2,300 years ago... 

 

The Romans and Greeks were trading with peoples in Africa and beyond... 

 

The Americas were isolated from the "Old" world but within the Americas there was all kinds of trade. There were trade routes stretching from South America to Canada far before the rise and fall of civilizations like the Mayans and the Aztec.

 

I am not sure what you mean by isolated. 


Edited by PJammer24, 07 January 2019 - 02:29 PM.


#5 bezevo

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:07 PM

There are a lot of scientists that push back the arrival of Europeans and Asians at 30,000+ yrs ,  .  .  so  lots of Accepted  doctrine is in .

question .

 

i do believe Vikings and Chinese visited new world before Columbus  but tens thousands of yrs after the arrival of other peoples .

 

There's a building foundation in St. Augustin Florida with plaque claiming the land for Portugal 300 yrs before Columbus.  many say Columbus had a map of new world his father acquired in Portugal 

 

So true story is murky indeed .


Edited by bezevo, 07 January 2019 - 03:08 PM.

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#6 425nm

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 03:56 PM

Ahhhh, this old white supremacist chestnut. The Scientific debate over who peopled the Americas has roots in white supremacy and is still today used as a weapon by racists to justify their ideology. Even the recent-ish history of this debate is confusing but worth knowing as it can help illuminate where some of the wingnut theories come from. The overall concept of Europeans settling North America first is called the soultrean hypothesis, see here for a thorough refutation.

 

A recent (1990ies) publicized rendition of "Europeans settled the Americas first" happened back with The Ancient one(aka, Kennewick man). TL;DR bone evidence got used by white supremacists to assert that Kennewick man was of European origin. Subsequent DNA evidence has corroborated that Kennewick man is of Native American ancestry.

 

More recently DNA evidence has been coming out and its rife for misinterpretation because the vast majority of reference sequences for DNA are from people of European descent so its pretty likely DNA pulled out of old teeth or bones could match up to sequences found in modern European lineages. Without an equally strong database of first nations reference sequences its a thorny statistical problem. Plus the choice of which sequence to use to asses relatedness has proven to be a bit of a moving target especially over deep time. Not all that long ago mitochondrial DNA was the benchmark and it is still used but it isn't always fool proof over deep time. Now that we're getting to the point of being able to compare larger portions of entire genomes the picture is expanding. Sadly most post-secondary institutes do a very very bad job of teaching Science majors about the vast and truly disturbing history of Scientific racism (lots of famous old timey Scientists were super super racist and used their theories to justify it). It leaves those that go on to be Scientists ill equipped to combat white supremacists hijacking their research for their shitty agenda. It also means that a number of them go on to perpetuation their own Sciencetific racism *cough*jameswatson*cough*samharris*cough*

 

This might make it sound like DNA could ultimately prove a hero in this story however a lot of native folks take issue with the use of DNA evidence to proven lineage or tribal affiliation. Kim Tallbear has an interview with NewSciencetist that talks about it and she has spoken out extensively against Elizabeth Warrens claim of Cherokee ancestry. Kim is a very good Twitter follow would recommend.

 

People like to give the humanities shit for not being useful but it is very important to know what is actual history, what is hagiography, and what is myth. Historians operate just like Scientists. History is absolutely open to reinterpretation with sufficient and strong evidence however those bodies of evidence are often vast or difficult to interpret. It is very very useful to have a group of people dedicated to its study.

 

If this person you were arguing with knew anything about history they couldn't reasonably make the argument that being native to a particular geography is about who was there first because then almost no European would be from the country marked on their passport. Most modern European nations are agglomerations of micro-states and tribal nations that historically did not get along. The Franks weren't even from what we call modern day France. They rolled into a portion of modern day France way way back and displaced a different tribal group. By this persons logic anyone who can claim Frank ancestry therefore isn't French.


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#7 PJammer24

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:15 PM

 

 

If this person you were arguing with knew anything about history they couldn't reasonably make the argument that being native to a particular geography is about who was there first because then almost no European would be from the country marked on their passport. Most modern European nations are agglomerations of micro-states and tribal nations that historically did not get along. The Franks weren't even from what we call modern day France. They rolled into a portion of modern day France way way back and displaced a different tribal group. By this persons logic anyone who can claim Frank ancestry therefore isn't French.

 

 

Thanks for chiming in 425nm!! I agree with a lot of what you said but this last statement is I think the most poignant... This is basically what I was saying with humans only being indigenous to Africa... I realize that the out of Africa concept is pretty murky its self and that it appears there were multiple humanoids who developed independently before eventually interbreeding, A convergence that produced anatomically modern humans. For this reason there is no defined origination point for human kind as we know it but I think that the statement helps to illustrate the point that Native Americans are as indigenous to the Americas as anyone is to their country of origin or ancestry...

 

The whole conversation was frustrating and I just about banged my head against a wall...


Edited by PJammer24, 07 January 2019 - 04:17 PM.

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#8 Juthro

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:16 PM

Here is a well written article from Nat Geo that glosses over this subject.

 

https://news.nationa...s-complicated-/

 

I was having trouble getting a cut and paste of the article to format properly to our forum (A.K.A I'm am technically challenged), so you'll have to follow the link to read it.

 

 

 

 

 



#9 PJammer24

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:22 PM

Thanks Juthro... I have read that article... It basically sums everything up by saying that just as in everything else human, we can from different places, at different times, and by different paths... There is no one way that humans arrived in the Americas and it is damn near impossible to accurately identify by which route they came first...

 

I apologize if I have confused two articles, but think this is the basic summary of that one.

 

I find it all fascinating! Personally, I think that a coastal route is most likely. i think it would be the easiest route with the most resources from which one could survive. I also believe that our early ancestors were more able seamen than we give them credit for... Man looked up at the sky and eventually flew into space, I don't believe that man didn't look out over the sea and find a way to explore it very early on....


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#10 Juthro

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 04:51 PM

I agree with you PJ, there is no 'one' group that colonized N. America.

 

I also agree with the coastal migration theory, to me it seems the most likely to be successful.

 

I hope you forgive me PJ for veering off on a tangent about the whole white supremacy method of writing history.  But I think you might enjoy this short animated video about that very subject through a Inuit natives POV  :)
 

[Direct Link]


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#11 Myc

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 06:37 PM

I've studied enough of South American ancient monuments to believe that it came the other way around. 

No one can say - for sure. But this theory lacks the racial bias pointed-out by 425nm (thank you).

 

From what I've seen, there are some pretty impressive structures - both commonly known and some not yet published - in South America which deserve some attention and proper credit. The works I have seen include videos of both areal tours and ground tours with commentary. There is no doubt as to the existence of these monuments, their scale, and craftsmanship - far superior to the work of the Central Americans of modern-day Columbia north into now Mexico. The workmanship and scale of these sites is certainly equal in scope and ability to the builders of the pyramids in the Nile river valley of North Africa. 

 

Said a different way - 

The far superior works are located in Southern Peru and farther south still to Nazca (it's more than just cutie lines cut into the desert - there are immense pyramidal structures being excavated nearby). The more inferior works (if you can call them that) are farther north. 

To me, this suggests that there was once a highly developed culture existing there for some thousands of years. All of those structures have been ruined as if by cataclysm. Either buried, broken or otherwise hove from plumb. Take for example the 33 foot (and taller) statues of Easter Island. Up until very recently, everyone agreed that they were just giant heads sticking out of the sand. Excavations proved that they are full-bodied statues with etchings and carvings which resemble modern polynesian style tattoo work. 

 

Said a different way - 

Show me a Viking structure of greater craftsmanship than their ships. They came far later than the builders of these edifices. 

Show me a Siberian nomad who had a working knowledge of architecture. Again, far later than the builders in South America. 

 

How come this group (the builders of the aforementioned edifices)  cannot be the "Native Americans" who - for sure - were here first. ;) 

They've got a perfect land bridge that would have taken them from Patagonia - all the way to Canada ..........all with no need for ice ages and stuff. 

And speaking of burned libraries - How about all those books the Spaniards burned up when they were getting their party started in Central America. Bark Codices......what they might have held. 

 

Here's a link to some of the Hidden Inca Tours stuff I've seen. 


Edited by Myc, 07 January 2019 - 06:54 PM.

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#12 PJammer24

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:40 PM

I've studied enough of South American ancient monuments to believe that it came the other way around.
No one can say - for sure. But this theory lacks the racial bias pointed-out by 425nm (thank you).

From what I've seen, there are some pretty impressive structures - both commonly known and some not yet published - in South America which deserve some attention and proper credit. The works I have seen include videos of both areal tours and ground tours with commentary. There is no doubt as to the existence of these monuments, their scale, and craftsmanship - far superior to the work of the Central Americans of modern-day Columbia north into now Mexico. The workmanship and scale of these sites is certainly equal in scope and ability to the builders of the pyramids in the Nile river valley of North Africa.

Said a different way -
The far superior works are located in Southern Peru and farther south still to Nazca (it's more than just cutie lines cut into the desert - there are immense pyramidal structures being excavated nearby). The more inferior works (if you can call them that) are farther north.
To me, this suggests that there was once a highly developed culture existing there for some thousands of years. All of those structures have been ruined as if by cataclysm. Either buried, broken or otherwise hove from plumb. Take for example the 33 foot (and taller) statues of Easter Island. Up until very recently, everyone agreed that they were just giant heads sticking out of the sand. Excavations proved that they are full-bodied statues with etchings and carvings which resemble modern polynesian style tattoo work.

Said a different way -
Show me a Viking structure of greater craftsmanship than their ships. They came far later than the builders of these edifices.
Show me a Siberian nomad who had a working knowledge of architecture. Again, far later than the builders in South America.

How come this group (the builders of the aforementioned edifices) cannot be the "Native Americans" who - for sure - were here first. ;)
They've got a perfect land bridge that would have taken them from Patagonia - all the way to Canada ..........all with no need for ice ages and stuff.
And speaking of burned libraries - How about all those books the Spaniards burned up when they were getting their party started in Central America. Bark Codices......what they might have held.

Here's a link to some of the Hidden Inca Tours stuff I've seen.


I think 425 agrees with your statement above... He was trying to explain, I believe, the mindset of the fellow I was debating on InstaFace...

I don’t think any rational person would say that the Vikings were here before Native Americans... Vikings came at least. 13,000 years later and likely longer than that... The evidence is just hard to find after 14 millennia...

I think an explanation for why the great Native American civilization are in Central and South America can be explained by the climate at the time. At the end of the last ice age, Canada and the northern United States were covered with a thick layer of ice. I think the climate in southern America was better suited to support large populations of people. The climate became more extreme as the ice age cane to an end and climate began to change everywhere on the planet. Civilizations like the Inca in Peru, The Mayans and Aztec more recently in Central America take countless generations to develop. Those southern locations allowed for people to begin settling early than other regions which is why these great civilizations developed...


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#13 PJammer24

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Posted 07 January 2019 - 07:58 PM

That’s a cool little video Juthro!!

Just a little tidbit about Myan civilization .... Traditionally it was viewed as a civilization of city states... New evidence found using Lidar technology indicates that we haven’t had the entire picture... The culture was wide spread with farms and villages stretching between the cities which were probably more for ceremonial purposes and commerce...

They also had port cities which have been overlooked and there is evidence that they were trading with people for hundreds of miles. Jade from the south, chert from the north, pearls, shells, corn from the interior...

Our understanding of the ancient cultures is primitive and doesn’t see the big picture...

I really think that climate change impacted these people long before global warming... Looking at the lidar images, it is hard to understand how these people cut this civilization into the jungle... I think that the jungle wasn’t a concern when they first settled, thousands of years ago. Over time, as climate changes, the jungle began to shoot up around them... Since they were already established, they were able to keep it at bay. They already had their foot print in place... Over time, as climate changed to what it became in a more modern era, they could no longer adapt to the amount of change that had occurred... They could not support the large civilizations, and things fell apart... With that a migration north occurred to more favorable climates...

There is evidence of these bloodlines in communities farther north and in southern unite states’ native populations...

It’s all fascinating, we haven’t even begun to have the whole picture...


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#14 Coopdog

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:44 AM

Juthro I absolutely loved that video lol. Normally I shy away from the racism discussion in todays news world, but in that historical biassed situation I fear and know it is most likely 100% true. God damn I wish we could get past what flavor we are and just realize we are all human family. 


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#15 Juthro

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:14 AM

Bless you Coop :)  I do truly feel that those that oppress us don't care about our skin color, or our heritage, and I do think they actively try to play us against each other to keep us divided, and unorganized.

 

I love that vid 'cuz it tells it how they see it, and it's not done in a combative or confrontational  format.  I know every perspective has its own view, but the history of the european white man seems to forget that sometimes, and seems to think it can just talk over others view of their history, and just make them not be heard by shear force of volume.

 

(Sorry PJ, if am derailing your threads original intent.  This might be worthy of its own thread if you would rather keep it seperate.   Your call my friend)

 

 

 

 


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#16 PJammer24

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:13 AM

I have no problem with a discussion changing direction....

History is written by those in power and the opposing viewpoints are typically similar in their extremes... The truth lies in the gray areas in between... Nothing is black and white.


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#17 bezevo

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 12:37 PM

ummm......  all humans originate from the rift valley region of east Africa ............all humans ..... oops  !


Edited by bezevo, 08 January 2019 - 12:43 PM.


#18 Alder Logs

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 01:16 PM

Then there's this bias that comes with the materialist scientific and philosophical viewpoint where matter is prime, making us these bodies at our base.    Are we that?  

 

From the OP; I find the word, "truths."   In my preferred use of the language, truth can take no plural form and remain true.  Where the word was used in context, it was, "accepted truths."   Now there's a qualifier that would bear attention.   So, there is truth, and there are facts.   There can be facts about truth, but if this truth in question isn't the Truth, it's less than truth.   I don't know anything, but suspect this with my own extreme bias; history is not truth.  

 

Another point, I am not this body, though the essence of this 'I,' appearing in this particular body, could be all and any bodies, having a part in all and any times, experiencing both the noble savage and the arrogant conqueror, for reasons not available to the current form.   Dropping the materialist view, I can look to the Inuit or the Aborigine and say, "I am that."   I can go beyond even this and say, "I am the trichoderma spore looking to fuck your scene up."  

 

So, I have studied viewpoints through slits in the barriers of time and space and seen ideas that can't stand with an academic mob, looking to impose an orthodoxy.  I have read that there are sand beaches seven thousand feet up the western face of the Andes, and a polar depression at Lake Chad.   I see that the continents did not drift at the rate they seem to today, but were riven apart in hours and in months moved thousands of miles apart as new sea floors erupted and were quenched, making Gondwanaland not millions of years distant, but mere thousands.    Thankfully for the academe, this expression comes from a meager high school dropout and need not threaten any sanctified canon. 

 

For me the truth of what is can best be expressed as, I don't know.  I love thinking about it, but may the Great Mystery always help me keep it all in its proper perspective.   I will take no facts as grounds for war, though I will resist some to the limits of my human strength, answering a call that cannot be described or rendered in concept.    This, I would have to call the Truth, though it cannot be told outside of I don't know. 

 

In life, and in the experience of our sacraments, I have seen the One.   I have embraced it as beyond question, and all else, including this physical existence, is all question, having only the one answer, but one which cannot be spoken.   

 

Everything with a beginning has an end.   What can see this?   Does that have a beginning or an end? 


Edited by Alder Logs, 08 January 2019 - 01:27 PM.


#19 PJammer24

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 01:34 PM

Mind thoroughly blown.... My academic mind may be too rigid... It will take me days to recover from this thrashing...

Alder, you regularly give me whip lash... I mean that in the most positive way possible...


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#20 swayambhu

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 02:10 PM

I am not sure what you mean by isolated.

Without the desire to sound or intent to be snotty, I did explicitly refer to the civilizations of the americas existing in isolation from those on the western seaboard of the Atlantic and Eastern seaboard of the Pacific.
Whether this was the case has been widey debated by those more knowledgeable than I will ever be, but fascinating to speculate. I feel the need, in the light of the politicisation of this otherwise intriguing topic, to add that I have no strong opinions either way, re the deep/ancient history of the Americas, and whether those civilizations were isolated from Europe, Africa and/or Asia or not

Edited by swayambhu, 08 January 2019 - 02:19 PM.





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