Paradox
©
Fisana

Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Say What??? Vikings and Chinese both beat Native Americans to the continent???


  • Please log in to reply
34 replies to this topic

#21 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 08 January 2019 - 03:52 PM

 

I am not sure what you mean by isolated.

Without the desire to sound or intent to be snotty, I did explicitly refer to the civilizations of the americas existing in isolation from those on the western seaboard of the Atlantic and Eastern seaboard of the Pacific.
Whether this was the case has been widey debated by those more knowledgeable than I will ever be, but fascinating to speculate. I feel the need, in the light of the politicisation of this otherwise intriguing topic, to add that I have no strong opinions either way, re the deep/ancient history of the Americas, and whether those civilizations were isolated from Europe, Africa and/or Asia or not

 

 

I think that Native Americans were more interconnected than you realize. When I first read your comment, I read it as an isolation of cultures in the east and the west as we define them today... I must have been in a hurry, I apologize. 

 

Since Native Americans, as we traditionally understand them, were living in relatively small communities  (Cahokia is one example of where this is not true), there was not trade on the same scale that you see in other places but they were certainly not isolated... There were raw materials and resources being traded between groups throughout the continent... There were Algonquian speaking tribes from the East Coast of the united states, into western Canada, and the Great Plains... Those tribes were certainly trading and interacting with other tribes who are speaking the same language.

 

Were the Iroquoian speaking people of New York and Pennsylvania interacting directly with the Salish of the northwestern United States??? Probably not, but trade was occurring between groups on the opposite seaboards... Perhaps the groups were not trading directly but material and technology was certainly being shared through intermediary groups located in between...

 

It all depends on how you want to define "isolation"... There were certainly groups that never directly interacted but I think it is safe to say that they were indirectly influencing each other. With the huge range of the Algonquin speaking peoples, they were certainly influencing groups over a wide breadth... I refer back to the Algonquin because they are the most obvious example.

 

Here is a map illustrating trade from the center of the United States Westward. It doesn't show the detailed path of trade eastward but it does illustrate that ideas and goods were also heading in that direction:

indiantrade2.jpg

 

Here is a 2nd map that shows the range of different Native American language groups. The Algonquin range is most telling. This map doesn't show Canada but there were Algonquin speaking groups located in more western canadian locations than in the States:

indian maps.jpg

 

The idea that these groups were not influencing each other is outdated. They all had their own customs, traditional food sources, and traditional tool making technology but advances in technology and goods were being passed from one coast to the next, though be it slowly....

 

*These statements are regarding later era Native Americans of Northern America... There were huge native american cities/civilizations that rose and fell in Central and South America who were also influencing a wide area with trade.


Edited by PJammer24, 08 January 2019 - 04:07 PM.

  • Myc and Juthro like this

#22 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 13,593 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:05 PM

You can read this book for free now.  It might affect your view on the history, and it didn't leave out much in the way of aboriginal cultures' stories and how they line up on particular images in their memories, the Americas included.

 

http://www.everythin...collision-free/



#23 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 08 January 2019 - 04:18 PM

I will read it!  I have been looking for something new and intriguing to read...

 

I find mythology as interesting as the American Civil war, if you can believe that!! I know, I know, that doesn't even seem possible... What's more exciting than the Civil War????



#24 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 13,593 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 08 January 2019 - 10:49 PM

It's funny that where Velikovsky and Sitchin drew on many of the same sources, what each got from them was so different. 

 

I am glad I don't have to read from a computer screen, as my Velikovsky collection is at least in the 90th percentile, and that, mostly in hard bound.   I put him among the greatest scholars of the 20th century.  

 

In Sitchin, I am unread.   But listening to late night talk radio, I have heard countless hours over the years.


Edited by Alder Logs, 08 January 2019 - 10:52 PM.


#25 Skywatcher

Skywatcher

    Twilight Walker

  • Moderator
  • 6,813 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 08 January 2019 - 11:43 PM

Well, I personally believe there is a huge amount of human history that is not embraced by "mainstream recent historians", and that a very small fraction of the actual time of the existence of humankind is even speculated, let alone known.

My personal beliefs include quite advanced civilizations, existing before what would be called "homo sapiens", being here on Earth, and possibly involved in the genetic alterations that created what we call "Human".

 

This subject will muddy the waters of humans coming from the rift valleys of Africa...........

https://www.ancient-...nt-city-africa/

 

I can't dismiss anything that I can not see for myself, but can only follow what seems to be a believable sequence of events, with what seems to be a lot of unverifiables in between.

 

I love these discussions PJ, and find it reassuring that so many people here can share and discuss subjects and their perspective, that are not the spoon fed fare of "acceptable history books". which are one sided collections of selective and incomplete fact....  


  • Myc and Juthro like this

#26 swayambhu

swayambhu

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 105 posts

Posted 09 January 2019 - 03:31 AM

@pjammer24, thank you for your interesting reply, though I hope you understand that it does not address anything I wrote in my previous posts, where I was referring to the type of hypothesis that Thor Hyerdal (sp?) tried to test with his voyages, and which are currently viewed with skepticism by mainstream academia, though genetic evidence of polynesian admixture in Andean populations seems to be testing that skepticism, from what I read (on wikipedia, lol).
That prehistoric man wandered far and wide, disseminating cultural and technological innovations, I'm well aware. In the area to which I'm indigenous, it is beyond dispute that trade was conducted across many thousands of miles from the mesolithic onward.


Edited by swayambhu, 09 January 2019 - 04:35 AM.


#27 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:49 AM

@pjammer24, thank you for your interesting reply, though I hope you understand that it does not address anything I wrote in my previous posts, where I was referring to the type of hypothesis that Thor Hyerdal (sp?) tried to test with his voyages, and which are currently viewed with skepticism by mainstream academia, though genetic evidence of polynesian admixture in Andean populations seems to be testing that skepticism, from what I read (on wikipedia, lol).
That prehistoric man wandered far and wide, disseminating cultural and technological innovations, I'm well aware. In the area to which I'm indigenous, it is beyond dispute that trade was conducted across many thousands of miles from the mesolithic onward.

 

lmfao... I need to stop responding to posts while I am at work...

 

In my hasate, I completely misread your previous posts... Twice, actually... I read eastern and western seaboard but the bodies of water you were referencing didn't register. 

 

You're right, my response had nothing to do with what you had posted... lol, my apologies...

 

A lot of it has been dismissed but there is some evidence of contact early on between southern pacific islanders and south America, which makes sense to me... The Sweet Potato, something about chickens, and language similarities.

 

I think pyramid building is probably common, not because of contact between cultures, but because reaching for the heavens is human nature as is bigger and better... The pyramid was the easiest way to accomplish these goals... We are still influenced by this primitive mind set, look at our skyscrapers for example...


  • swayambhu likes this

#28 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 13,593 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:54 AM

Pyramids could be a crossover between your human dispersion and UFO threads.  But do read Worlds In Collision to see interesting things like maybe the fire breathing dragon seen in the sky by the Chinese and the Siberians might have been the feathered serpent seen in Central America.   The story didn't cross the ocean if it was two perspectives on the same event.  The destruction of codices by the Inquisition could rank with the burning of Alexandria. 


  • PJammer24 and swayambhu like this

#29 swayambhu

swayambhu

    Mycophage

  • Free Member
  • 105 posts

Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:11 PM

The destruction of codices by the Inquisition could rank with the burning of Alexandria.


Apparently there is more material available in classical nahuatl than there is in classical Greek.

#30 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:29 PM

Pyramids could be a crossover between your human dispersion and UFO threads.  But do read Worlds In Collision to see interesting things like maybe the fire breathing dragon seen in the sky by the Chinese and the Siberians might have been the feathered serpent seen in Central America.   The story didn't cross the ocean if it was two perspectives on the same event.  The destruction of codices by the Inquisition could rank with the burning of Alexandria. 

 

Alas... My poor little UFO thread didn't gain momentum... I think I may have been a little long winded for that one to pick up steam.... I also blended 3-4 distinct discussions.. Kratom makes me wordy... I will wait a few days before attempting an Anunnaki, ancient Sumerian tradition thread...

 

So many of the stories referred to by modern religions and relatively (compared to the Sumerians) modern mythology can be traced to Sumerian tradition... Who did the Sumerians adopt these stories from? I think our history goes back much farther than many are willing to consider.



#31 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 10 January 2019 - 11:49 AM

http://www.archaeolo...rg/NewsPage.htm

 

Here is an archaeology news website that I have been visiting for years. They pull archaeological news from all kinds of different sites. I have learned some really interesting stuff on here... 

 

Thought that some of you may appreciate this if you haven't already seen it.



#32 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 17 January 2019 - 12:23 PM

14,000-Year-Old Settlement In British Columbia Confirms Heiltsuk Nation’s Myth Of ‘Time Immemorial’
MessageToEagle | April 7, 2017 | Archaeology News

MessageToEagle.com – While excavating in British Columbia, archaeologists have unearthed a 14-year-old settlement that is only much older than the Roman Empire and the Egyptian pyramids, but also confirms ancient oral myths of the Heiltsuk Nation and the concept of ‘time immemorial’.

“Heiltsuk oral history talks of a strip of land in that area where the excavation took place. It was a place that never froze during the ice age and it was a place where our ancestors flocked to for survival,” said William Housty, a member of Heiltsuk Nation.

The ancient settlement was discovered by archaeologist Alisha Gauvreau, a PhD student from the University of Victoria and a scholar with the Hakai Institute. Gauvreau and her team found several artifacts including carved wooden tools at the site.

By excavating through meters of soil and peat, the team identified a paleosol, a thin horizontal layer of soil that contained a hearth-like feature.

Tests have now revealed that the fragments are over 14,000 years old and the settlement was built during the last ice age where glaciers covered much of North America.

The discovery is highly significant because it confirms ancient oral traditions. “This find is very important because it reaffirms a lot of the history that our people have been talking about for thousands of years,” Housty said.

“When First Nations talk about time immemorial, it just goes to show how far back the occupation of this land goes back in deep time,” Gauvreau said.

heiltsuknation.jpgMembers of the archeology team, from left to right, John Maxwell, Alisha Gauvreau, and Seonaid Duffield work on excavating the site. (Joanne McSporran )

The finding also has broader implications for human history — namely early North Americans travelled the coast.

 

 

How and when humans entered the Americas is still debated. One theory is that is they came from Asia over an Alaskan land bridge through an ice-free corridor east of the Rockies and made their way through what is now eastern and central Canada, Gauvreau explained.

heiltsuknation2.jpgAlisha Gauvreau, left, and Dr. Duncan McLaren, right, collect a sediment sample below a stone artifact discovered in the site. (Tomonori Kanno )

“The alternative theory, which is supported by our data as well as evidence that has come from stone tools and other carbon dating, is people were capable of travelling by boat. From our site, it is apparent that they were rather adept sea mammal hunters,” Gauvreau said.

Housty, who sits on the board of directors for the Heiltsuk Resource Management Department, said the scientific validation will help in future negotiations over land title and rights.

“When we do go into negotiations, our oral history is what we go to the table with,” Housty said.

“So now we don’t just have oral history, we have this archaeological information. It’s not just an arbitrary thing that anyone’s making up … We have a history supported from Western science and archaeology.”

 

 

I am a proponent of the theory that  early Native Americans likely made their way down the coast using the resources of the sea for survival... Coming through an icy inland route makes less sense to me. I think that people were sea bearing much early that is often suggested and that they were well adapted to life along the coast. Nearly all areas of significant settlement, whether ancient or modern, are located along waterways. I think people learned to navigate the water shortly after learning to navigate on two feet.


  • Juthro likes this

#33 Juthro

Juthro

    dope smoking hillbilly

  • OG VIP
  • 7,582 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 17 January 2019 - 01:40 PM

Dude, where is their trench shoring device?   

 

Dont make me turn them in to the WorkSafeBC guys.....

 

[Direct Link]


Edited by Juthro, 17 January 2019 - 01:41 PM.

  • PJammer24 likes this

#34 PJammer24

PJammer24

    Archetype Novice

  • OG VIP
  • 1,366 posts

Awards Bar:

Posted 17 January 2019 - 02:02 PM

No one can make you do anything Juthro...


  • Juthro likes this

#35 Alder Logs

Alder Logs

    ૐ शान्तिः शान्तिः शान्तिः ૐ

  • Moderator
  • 13,593 posts

Donator


Awards Bar:

Posted 17 January 2019 - 04:35 PM

The end of the most recent "ice age" was not an ice age, but the retreat of glaciers after a rotational axis shift, most likely due to a crustal slippage.   At the time when much of Northeastern North America and Western Europe were under glacier, Western Alaska and Siberia were the temperate habitat of great bison, saber-tooth cats, and mammoths.    When the axis shifted, many of these temperate mammals were flash frozen, as the temperate flora they were eating shows us.    Because of the Eurocentrism of most of academia, the evidence of glaciation in Europe was studied in an insular academic bubble, and the retreat of the glaciers taken as due to a change in climate.   They didn't look far enough afield to see the permanent evidence.   Not until Velikovsky finally did, anyway. 


Edited by Alder Logs, 17 January 2019 - 04:43 PM.

  • PJammer24 likes this




Like Mycotopia? Become a member today!