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#21 Deleena24

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:06 PM

I have done so much reading on invitro I cant remember exactly. Call it cumulative knowledge.

However, when I bought presterilzed hpoo bags from a vendor, planning on using them for tubs, they claimed you could fruit right in the bag, and right on the bags it recommended a 1 to 2 ratio, so I tried it.

Honestly, I was about to start misting and fanning the first time but I got busy for like 3 days and when I came back to check there was a pinset I couldn't believe, so I just left it.

I tried again and again and it just worked, every time. Every strain, every grain so far...

I've made my own, too, just for anybody wondering, but I get them premade so cheap and it saves me so much time since I only have an 8qt PC, I continually order them. Making them is quite easy though, especially if you have a large PC and an impulse sealer.

#22 Deleena24

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:08 PM

These are the bags I'm going to try next. They're supposed to allow better FAE...

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#23 raymycoto

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 05:57 PM

Hey, I'm tryin' that with my next mature spawn.

 

To confirm, how full do you make the bags?

 

I have some bags but I'm afraid they are 0.5 micron filtered. I got them for spawn. But I imagine I can fold the top over some polyfill.

 

In fact, I guess I could spawn in them and then add some substrate, perhaps the MG (got some last week).

 

Is that what you do? Or do you do jars then mix in the bag with your sub du jour.

 

Have you ever tried the 'all in one bag'? Spawn on the top and sub below? Then noc the sub and keep it sealed, mix when spawn in mature?  I guess the problem is that you can't mix the spawn plus your inoculant really well.

 

Unless . . . you could

  • noc your spawn in a jar,
  • mix it well,
  • add it to the top of a bag containing the requisite volume of sub and a 0.5 micron patch
  • seal the bag - fold or whatever
  • wait for spawn colonization of the top layer
  • mix the spawn / sub without opening the bag
  • open the bag to insert some poly into the top edge and fold the top
  • wait for colonization.

I could do this since I think I have just the 0.5's

 

Potential problems

 

  • Field hydration of the sub is too much moisture for a spawn situation. This might transfer moisture to a properly hydrated grain on the top layer.

Perhaps this is too much over simplification rather than just doing a separate spawn and substrate.

 

I'm thinking of a bag that has been noc'd and that I could give to a friend and let him do the above without the need for laminar flow or SAB. That would be cool if it could work. Of course there is the mystery of the temp, humidity and air flow in the room and 'friend' might not have the magic combination of these.



#24 raymycoto

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 06:01 PM

 

These are the bags I'm going to try next. They're supposed to allow better FAE...

 

I have seen those. Your great results will be hard to beat but I'm eager to hear how they do.

 

I learned early on that more FAE isn't always the best. Stuff can dry out, CO2 levels are low. Humidity drops. Contams can be given more favorable parameters. Proper FAE is one of those mysterious things.

 

But for fruiting, perhaps that new bag will be more forgiving of other errors in the process.


Edited by raymycoto, 09 January 2019 - 09:00 PM.


#25 PJammer24

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 07:20 PM

I mix my sub and spawn in the bags...

.5 micron should be fine, I think they’re what Deleena has been using. It’s the .2 bags that would probably have a hard time with...

FAE is about finding the proper balance... If I were to add additional FAE, I would probably forego the fans.

I mix my spawn and sub in bags the same as I would a tub and then throw it up on the shelf.

I use those black alligator mouth paper clips (not sure how else to describe them) to close the top.


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#26 Deleena24

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 09:55 PM

Yeah I just mix colonized grain with the substrate in the bag. .5 micron is what u want.

It doesnt matter if you use jars or bags for the spawn...colonized grain is colonized grain.

I sometimes even toss a PF tek cake into the substrate bags as spawn. Mash it up and mix well. It provides in insane amount of innoculation points, and colonized very fast. My ape bag is about to pin I will document it for ya'll.
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#27 PJammer24

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 10:35 PM

If your bags happen to be 5 micron rather than .5 micron, you will be fine also... 5 micron just has bigger pores than .5 and allows them to breath a little more...

If you have been doing spawn in them with success, they are .5 or smaller.


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#28 Deleena24

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 11:08 PM

If your bags happen to be 5 micron rather than .5 micron, you will be fine also... 5 micron just has bigger pores than .5 and allows them to breath a little more...

If you have been doing spawn in them with success, they are .5 or smaller.


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Yes, 5 micron will allow for good FAE, but you will not be able to colonize spawn in them. You contam every time. According to where I get my bags, its .05micron not .5... though it was the former.

http://out-grow.com/...trate-p-25.html

They sell .02 micron, .05 and 5 micron growbags of every size, and this is where I buy mine, both with poo and empty to make my own. An impulse sealer was an awesome investment. Spend the extra 6 bucks and the the 16inch if u get one.

#29 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 07:03 AM

 

If your bags happen to be 5 micron rather than .5 micron, you will be fine also... 5 micron just has bigger pores than .5 and allows them to breath a little more...

If you have been doing spawn in them with success, they are .5 or smaller.


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Yes, 5 micron will allow for good FAE, but you will not be able to colonize spawn in them. You contam every time. According to where I get my bags, its .05micron not .5... though it was the former.

http://out-grow.com/...trate-p-25.html

They sell .02 micron, .05 and 5 micron growbags of every size, and this is where I buy mine, both with poo and empty to make my own. An impulse sealer was an awesome investment. Spend the extra 6 bucks and the the 16inch if u get one.

 

Could their numbers be off? .02 µm is incredibly small...the tiniest known organisms are fifteen times bigger than that, and most environmental contaminants are far larger. For instance, the smallest fungal spores are ~200 times that size.  The mycobags I've seen online seem to range from .2 µm to 5 µm.


Edited by WalkingCatfish, 10 January 2019 - 07:04 AM.


#30 Deleena24

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:28 PM

I never questioned it...

I always thought they were .5 myself, not .05.

I'm pretty sure they're Unicorn bags, though. I guess I'll check their site. The manufacturer would know best.

#31 Deleena24

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:32 PM

You're right. Here's the page where they just sell the bags...numbers are different, just as you suspected.

I'm going to write the owner, Mike and let him know he has an extra 0 in his poo bag descriptions.

http://out-grow.com/...grow-bags-c-13/

BTW...Unicorn has some crazy bags! So many styles and filters. They even have an automatic spawn mixer! Put in a partially colonized bag and it professionally mixes it! LMAO

Edited by Deleena24, 10 January 2019 - 12:36 PM.


#32 PJammer24

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:37 PM

 

 

If your bags happen to be 5 micron rather than .5 micron, you will be fine also... 5 micron just has bigger pores than .5 and allows them to breath a little more...

If you have been doing spawn in them with success, they are .5 or smaller.


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Yes, 5 micron will allow for good FAE, but you will not be able to colonize spawn in them. You contam every time. According to where I get my bags, its .05micron not .5... though it was the former.

http://out-grow.com/...trate-p-25.html

They sell .02 micron, .05 and 5 micron growbags of every size, and this is where I buy mine, both with poo and empty to make my own. An impulse sealer was an awesome investment. Spend the extra 6 bucks and the the 16inch if u get one.

 

Could their numbers be off? .02 µm is incredibly small...the tiniest known organisms are fifteen times bigger than that, and most environmental contaminants are far larger. For instance, the smallest fungal spores are ~200 times that size.  The mycobags I've seen online seem to range from .2 µm to 5 µm.

 

 

 

I never questioned it...

I always thought they were .5 myself, not .05.

I'm pretty sure they're Unicorn bags, though. I guess I'll check their site. The manufacturer would know best.

 

I think Deleena had a typo in that previous post... I think she meant 0.5, 0.2 as opposed to 0.05 or 0.02... With the zeros and decimals, it is easy to make a typo.

 

The bags I have been fruiting in are 5.0 micron which is too large to do spawn with consistent success but perfectly fine to fruit in. Mold spores can be as small as 0.3 micron which is why the 0.2 bags will give you the highest chance of keeping contaminates at bay...

 

*Edit* Even easier to make the mistake when it is the vendor providing the bag who has made the typo....


Edited by PJammer24, 10 January 2019 - 12:40 PM.


#33 Deleena24

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 12:56 PM

Exactly, PJ.

The bags are either .2micron, .5micron, or a full 5.0micron.

The hpoo bags I use are .5micron, not .05 as the link says. I already wrote the owner telling him about the typo.

I think I'm going to order a few of the 5.0 micron bags to see how well they do for fruiting.

And just FYI, I checked the bags I ordered in the past, and the info in the package says they are .5micron. They're identical to the hpoo bags, so I am confident in the numbers now.

#34 sandman

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:24 PM

I gotta do a revised write up on my sandbag tek. I think spawn bags aka mycobags are better utilized and really excel for growing spawn rather than fruiting in. You can fruit in any much bigger and cheaper widely available poly bags very easily. 


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#35 AbnormalMortaL

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:43 PM

When i was looking deeper into trying the famous sandbags..i came across something like these
https://www.walmart....505&athena=true
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#36 AbnormalMortaL

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:45 PM

$16 for a 50 seemed legit. They're not 4 mil thick like the sandbags, but best i could find under $80
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#37 sandman

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 01:57 PM

Yea those are good. 2 mil works fine too. I like 24x10x36 gusseted 2 mil bags the best. 


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#38 PJammer24

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:13 PM

At $0.30+- per bag, I don't mind the expense... I was considering placing an order with one of the Chinese manufacturers but I am not confident in their quality control methods... Will see...



#39 Deleena24

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:14 PM

Sandman, it was you who inspired me to start fruiting in bags. As I said, in the beginning, I even added holes with polyfil like you do, but I got better results leaving them with just the filter, discovered through pure laziness.

I do think you're right though, that any plastic bag can be used to fruit if you modify it woth some polyfil or whatnot. It's much more economical than buying small amounts of filter gusset bags, they can get expensive unless you buy them by the hundreds.
I buy my poo bags premade from outgrow bc of reasons explained, it ends up saving me money bc of time I dont have to spend making them myself. I also buy them in bulk, and he always sends extra. It comes out to about 4$ per 1lb bag including shipping if I include the extras he sends. Not bad since its sterile, ingredients are perfectly mixed and hydrated already. It's just too easy for me not to use when I am juggling so many projects. They allow me to easily grow lots of cubes with almost zero work, while I focus on my Mexicana and Pan grows.

I think we can all agree that bags, if used correctly, which can be different in different situations, are wonderful FCs.

I think someone should use a clone to try fruiting with several different bags, with controls, so we can see which filter sizes work best. Which ones are the bare minimum for fruiting, etc.

Looks like I have a future project ahead of me. I even have a PF Classic clone to use
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#40 raymycoto

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Posted 10 January 2019 - 02:18 PM

I've made an interesting observation and I don't know if it's applicable to fruiting.

 

I've grabbed some of the brown / orange plastic bags from the rolls of bags in the meat area at Costco. I use them to autoclave substrate and put about one kilo in each and loosely tie the tops. They are totally tolerant to 250F without shrinking or stiffening like some other off-use bags I've attempted.

 

I then let them cool and put them into a larger bag and they stay sterile and uncontam. However, I noted something. I weighed the bags pre and post autoclave to observe any water weight change. There was minimal change in the autoclave. But I noted that even sealed and obviously with no tear or leak and a reasonably tight knot in the top, the sub lost a ton of water weight in one month, like 900 grams down to 750 grams total weight. And there was condensation in the larger garbage bag. And I noted consistent weight loss in all of 3 bags that I had done a weight on and marked the grams on the side in sharpy.

 

So I was sort of concluding they are gas permeable. I've only tried this once but I PC'd some grain in one of them, then noc'd and totally sealed it with a reasonably tight knot. It colonized really well and I want to try this again. I think the entire bag is gas perm thru the plastic and perhaps even too permeable but the spawn bag did not lose too much water weight.

 

I'll try again some time and sample some CO2 and see how it holds up in the bag. I can put a microbore plastic sample tube into the bag thru the knot.

 

Anyway, long winded story to say that Costco brown meat bags might be a good spawn bag by virtue of their inherent gas permeability.  Down side is that the are opaque, not clear, you can see the colonization but not determine any contaminants.






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