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HELP laminar bench build .......a few Questions ?


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#1 bezevo

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 03:06 PM

Ok  i looked  into purchasing a basic Stamets  Laminar 12"x24"  about $700 

 

various commercial units  $700  to OMFG $4,000  HEH   thats sticker Shock .

 

then i googled up lots of DIY  Laminar projects , wow lots solid builds and lots Really Crazy Ghetto sound and less then sound theory .

 

most seemed based on a  24" x 24"  filter

 

i searched around and  asked questions of  sandman , Microbe  and few others  THANKS FOR ADVICE

 

SO i was shopping for a 24" x 24"  x 5.85 filter i found a" good one  but for only $20 more i could get a

 

24" x 30 "  x 5.85 filter so i could set it long way for a 30 inch work area for grain ...agar ... ect or turn on side for 30 inch tall work area  for tall  bags .

 

so i ordered  that filter .$190 

https://www.ebay.com...bk1AU:rk:1:pf:0

 

the vendor also sells a 24" x 24"  x 5.85 filter and a 24" x 48"  x 5.85 filter

 

 

then i looked at LOTS .......LOTS ..........FANS .The  snail type squirrel fans that pushed 1000 cfm  or more were  OUCH $300+  . SO I LOOKED INTO

 

INLINE FANS  MOST WERE  a propeller type fan blade CHEAP  but really had bad drop in CFM  with back pressure.

 

i found a  inline  style fan that was a squirrel wheel style fan that had low drop against back pressure rated at 1060 cfm $94

 

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

41628l91AhL._SCLZZZZZZZ__SY500_SX500_.jp

 

I also  orders  a  router style fan  speed  controller $17

 

ok   it only took  3.5 months to get filter ..turns out its a build to order item and was beck ordered THREE TIMES  .

waiting on fan now .

 

the price onn the filter and fan i bought has gone up a cpl bucks since my purchase .

 

...................NOW MY FIRST QUESTIONS ......................

 

................FOR YOU INTERNET .......LAMINAR .........EXPERTS .......

 

.(1)....I am about to start designing cabinet .......i am thinking 3/4  cabinet finish plywood or maybe one of the newer  kitchen cabinet laminates.

What advice on cabinet materials might you folks have to offer ..i know nothing about the newer laminates .?

 

(2)....I  am curious as to  air  speed  to be exciting face of filter  to acheave a good protective laminar flow . i have a little device that i can measure that with .. my reading says about 100 pm err per min  or so?

 

(3).......i was wondering how much work area out from front of  filter face ...like how many inches from face of my filter should i have edge or working area table i will have 24 inch wide area  but can scoot filter closer to table edge for optimal work area ...."

let me know if that makes since ?

 

(4)...also  i see lots pics of people just working in front of laminar  in open room ..............and lots were they have an open face enclosure going out surrounding  face of  filter..

What are prose and cons of these  two configuration s?

 

ok  please  if you can provide some posative input please post your oopinions and Ideas .

 

oh and your questions

 

thanks


Edited by bezevo, 19 January 2019 - 03:24 PM.

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#2 Cuboid

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:07 PM

I can't find a spec for the resistance of that filter. Not sure how you're going to be able to find a fan to match without that data.

#3 Cuboid

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:13 PM

RE: Q2
If I recall correctly the linear air speed is wanted to be around 100 feet per minute.
Your filter area is 2ft *2.5ft = 5 square foot. So you'd need 500 cfm out of your blower to get that air speed out the filter. The missing link to match this up to a fan spec is not knowing the resistance of the filter.
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#4 sandman

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 06:37 PM

he has a fan speed controller, he just needs to make sure the blower is faster than needed and he dials it in with the controller. There's no need to match it the blower so specifically when using this approach you just need to overshoot it.

 

1> 3/4" plywood of whatever nicest grade you want is good. As long as its a nice smooth plywood, not OSB. 

 

2> Your device is probably not sensitive enough to measure that airspeed, but 90-110fpm is the range yo want. Just start turning the controller up till you nearly blow out a bic at a few inches. Don't "over-blow" your filter if you have a crazy powerful fan, might damage the matrix of filter media and ruin the filter.

 

3> Try to stay as far away from the edges as possible at all times but don't work any closer than about 3 or 4" from top and sides. 

 

4> just a different style, but an enclosed hood you can feel more confident working close to the edges. It does add mega bulk and you need to use a nice non porous material like plyexiglass for this enclosure. For what you are going to use it for, and to save on une esarry engineering and expense you probably should go with an open face hood. 


Edited by sandman, 19 January 2019 - 06:45 PM.

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#5 bezevo

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:12 PM

ok  thanks for  comments guys ...........the fan i bought should be ok ........guessing....... its rated 1060 CFM  right out of fan so after  it pressurizes plenum i would be supersized  if it had enough pressure drop to  not make laminar flow .......

.well i hope so .

As  Sandman suggested .i picked a fan that should push a lot more CFM   than i need and will use the  Speed controller  to  dial it down .

Later as the filter ages and i can turn it up to compensate for the greater resistance .

 

THE Device i have' to measure air flow is a Bentetech Digital Anemometer model GM816

The brochure doesn't say what its max limit is on wind speeds . Let me check .

 

AS Far as specs on filter  when it arrived fri and i unpacked it

 IMPORTANTLY IT CAME WITH Factory  Test Results  after it was made .  not sure what this means

 

 

 particle penetration   .00009% 

 

resistance 1-29 IN W.G.

 

might this be the Missing #'s Cuboid referred to ?


It was made to order after i bought . 24" x 30" 5.785" its housed in particle board frame .WITH  foan type weater striping on exit face .


Edited by bezevo, 19 January 2019 - 07:37 PM.


#6 sandman

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:19 PM

i would be surprised if that cheap thing will pick up such a low airspeed. I think I've read somewhere else that someone tried one of those and couldn't get it to register. No worries, just use the bic lighter method it is plenty accurate.A little over 45 degree bend and you are golden. 



#7 Cuboid

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 07:27 PM

@sandman " There's no need to match it the blower so specifically when using this approach you just need to overshoot it."

Agreed, but from the information provided I don't see how you can be sure this fan does overshoot with this filter.

#8 sandman

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:07 PM

Well he said it's 1060cfm at 0" sp so it's probably got 500cfm in it at whatever sp his filter+prefilter makes. No way to know for sure since he couldn't find a curve chart for the fan, but usually most squirrel cage fans won't lose more than half cfm at around 1.2" sp. He'll find out soon enough. I just want to note I didn't recommend that fan to him or anything, personally I would avoid using a inline type fan because as he said earlier they don't have as much cfm with high SP typically, compared to a squirrel cage fan. 


Edited by sandman, 19 January 2019 - 08:14 PM.


#9 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:09 PM

Well, you are building a big flow hood! That being said, I would purchase wall material that is smooth, and easy to clean depending on your budget.

You have to wipe down every square inch of the inside surface with at least alcohol before final assembly, and you will be constantly wiping and cleaning these surfaces. They have to be water resistant, and the smoother the better.

Some of the big box stores are carrying shelving sections that are wide and coated with what appears to be nylon plastic. That would be ideal, but using smooth 1 inch shelving boards painted with gloss paint works great. That's what I used with excellent results.

Unless the plywood is the finished type, you may have surfaces that capture mold spores and contaminants.

To be honest, I would have to defer to others on how big and issue this is, but it seems like lab grade units are made of glass and aluminum, and are quite easy to clean and disinfect.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 19 January 2019 - 08:13 PM.

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#10 bezevo

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:11 PM

Thanks for info and comments guys ..


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#11 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:19 PM

That inline fan is a squirrel cage with rear exit, Wich will reduce some efficiency because the air has to take a 90° curve, but proof will be in the front windspeed of that quite large filter. Especially at the edges compared to the center -and curve of these from edge to center.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 19 January 2019 - 08:20 PM.

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#12 bezevo

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:25 PM

i see what your saying Steampunk .

I will have to make note to check from center out to edges with a flame to test for even laminar  flow .

 

Another reason beside cost i choose this type of fan was microbe had a  build using a similar inline fan  with success

His pushed a bit more CFM 1500 but i think filter was bigger .. i might be wrong there .

 

This fan according to description  does have a squirrel cage wheel type blade rather than a propeller type blade as most round in line fans have .

. One of the reasons i choose it .........was the manufactured description said it had a much less   drop as a centrifugal type fan would . . it was recommended over  propeller blade fans for applications were your pushing air threw a filter. i knew i needed about 500 CFM and with this rated at 1060 at zero i was  fairly confident it would  be able to push 500 at the filter..

 

however i could be wrong ...hopping not .


Edited by bezevo, 19 January 2019 - 08:45 PM.

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#13 sandman

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:29 PM

I'm rooting for you


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#14 bezevo

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:42 PM

ha well thanks sandman .

i am slow at projects  measure 47 times cut three heh. no  skills i am hoping brother in law who is really super handy  can be persuaded to help build cabinet .....unfortunately he is busy RTFN  remodeling a farm house he is moving into and he is building all the kitchen cabinets .......this should be good practice for him to build my  flow hood cabinet 'HEH

 

........................GOOD PRACTICE !.............................


Edited by bezevo, 19 January 2019 - 08:47 PM.

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#15 bezevo

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 01:22 PM

THOSE FUCKING INCOMPETENT KNOT HEADS  AT FED-X Dropped the Ball yesterday on my fan Tracing said out for delivery at 3.45 am at Depot 125 miles from me . 

i am in BFE  . waited all day no show ! With out Me asking Amazon sent me an apology with a direct phone # to that Depot . but no answer .

 

UPS  ALWAYS Delivers on time . The USPS In my area is great always fast on time . FED-X  is just surreal in there incompetence sending pacages in giant 800 mile circles for days ! very strange . 

 

https://www.amazon.c...0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

 

41628l91AhL._SCLZZZZZZZ__SY500_SX500_.jp



#16 sandman

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 01:32 PM

damn fedex driver backed up in my front yard and left big ruts. Always the damn fedex. 



#17 bezevo

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 01:58 PM

ASS HATS



#18 bezevo

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 02:34 PM

FED-X  Delivered The FAN  just now . box looked un-smooshed other than a on one side a small  v shaped hole .

When i unpacked fan there was a  very tiny superficial scratch there on housing . tomorrow i will go out to GAYrodge and get long  power cord and test fa alone and with controller .

The  fan housing is surprisingly sturdy  seems sealed well  and the mounting brackets seem sturdy .also.

the fan turned freely and smooth by hand .

i might upgrade the self tapping sheet metal mounting screws to best grade i can find .

Now that i have fan i can design plenum size and spec out size for  box  on top cabinet the fan will be housed in .

i need to find a 1/4  rubber matt for to put on floor of fan box so the fan exit can go threw hole into plenum and body of fan will rest somewhat on it to adsorb some vibration .

 

Do you ALL think i should put 1/n rubber isolation between mounting bars ON Inside of box ?

 

OK THIS IS EXCITING


Edited by bezevo, 21 January 2019 - 02:47 PM.

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#19 bezevo

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 11:46 AM

ok  i had a chat with sand man abiut above post on desighn isolation pads and more . i pasted part of that talk below ..

 

 

ATENTION INTERNET EXPERTS PLEASE DO  ADD COMMENTS AND OPINIONS THANKS

sandman [1:39 PM]
ive never bothered with any rubber isolation pads or anything like that ha it shouldn't vibrate too much

 

bezevo [1:39

I TEND TO OVER THINK OVER ENGINER
OCD DESIGNS

 

sandman [1:41 PM]
i usually make a hole that fits and seal the connection with expanding spray foam. Kinda glues the fan to the bob

 

bezevo [1:42 PM]
i was  thinking cut hole tight...then  router small countersink and use a thick bead of silicone .. but spray foam good idea (edited)

sandman [1:44 PM] just depends on the fan, spray foam makes it easy. Some fans may have a nice flange or some shit.

bezevo [1:46 PM]
the flange is just short of  11 1/2 in diameter about 3/4 inch deep so if its going into  or threw 3/3 plywood should be sturdy connection
the mounting brackets go out toward side the little transformer box is on .
looks like  box for fan will be about 16" x 18" inside give or take 1/2 inch or so .  i have 16" x16" pre-filters but i could get  biger or smaller . i just already had filtrate merv 13 16"x16" filters
i am thinking  inside of plenum should be 24"x30"x12" ?

sandman [2:01 PM]

thats plenty ,you might need a baffle if you get it together and notice uneven airflow.
just a horizontal flat piece that deflects the air towards the back in the plenum

sandman [2:27 PM]
just a piece that deflects towards the back yea

 

~~~~|| \ |

like 8-12 inch wide or more at a slope like that pic sorta

bezevo [2:29 PM]
ok so it hangs down from edge closet to flange  closets to filet face .the plenum will be 24 inch deepo that will direct air to back and help mpre evenly pressurize plenum ?

sandman [2:32 PM]

hood.png

bezevo [2:34 PM]

so 8 to 12 inch ii am thinking i should just do that from get go or do without first and  . add later if no even presure . whats your best guess

sandman [2:48 PM]

wouldn't hurt to have it be there
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------UPDATE NEXT DAY -----------------------------------------------

 

 This AM i unpacked , tested fan and  speed controller and the little digital Anemometer  i have .

The  Fan seemed to run smooth not outrageously loud, seemed to push as much AIR  a Full throttle with speed controller as with out IT.,

 

I am not sure of accuracy of cheapy Anemometer , it read 124 MP at zero  and  1778 CFM  at zero fan is rated 1060 0n box . at about 12" out Anemometer read about 1074 CFM ?

There was a slight humm using speed  controller .

OK  SO FAN WORKS

BUT WILL IT PUSH ENOUGH AIR

 

TIME WILL TELL

 

AGAIN COMMENTS IDEAS WELCOMED THANKS


Edited by bezevo, 22 January 2019 - 12:11 PM.


#20 bezevo

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 01:11 PM

oh  BOY !  TIME TO PRETEND I AM AN Engineer/Designer...............i I Need  a few measuring devises and some good quality  graph paper  to get started .

IN .reality i am not delusional i know i really don't understand a lot of the dynamics of laminar flow . pressure drop curves .. the math involved ect ,

 

I am looking at about 15 functional  laminar hood/bench designs , some commercial , some neet tidy  home built DIY , some perty Ghetto DIY ,

 

From these and using my filter dimensions and fan dimensions...i am going to design something that in my "guessing theory" should be functional work as a useful laminar work area and look neat tidy    . ummm yes appearance professiona,l. if it looks all gheto  it will cause tension in home ha . .

 

i would desire to have a nice  professional looking hood . rH and it should WORK heh  ,

so i might take a few months extra to  make fit n finished unite neat tidy ..

 

oh boy $300 into it so far . suggestions welcomed .

 

thanks


Edited by bezevo, 24 January 2019 - 01:47 PM.

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