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Blue Juice: A new method of extraction using Ice by Paul Stamets


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#41 sandman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 04:13 PM

I dont think there is any proof that the bluing is psilocin. I know for damn sure that hot water extract lasts a long long ass time in the fridge though, done did that test myself.



#42 Soliver

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 04:24 PM

OK, I had some errands to run, so I took just enough to determine that the fluid is active, and worth playing around with some more. I'll wait a couple of days and do a more serious dose.  It certainly goes down easy...in a shotglass of lemonade, you'd barely notice it. 

 

You need to snarf all of that stuff.  In the name of science, of course, and because the idea of getting Pink's panties in a twist amuses me somewhat.

 

:)

 

soliver


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#43 Cuboid

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 04:24 PM

Interesting if not conclusive article on bluing:-
https://psychedelicr...luing-reaction/

Psychedelic Science Review

Psychedelic Science Review

Chemistry
Blue Bruising: The Psilocybin Mushroom Bluing Reaction

"Blue bruising" is one of the most famous features of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. In this article, we explore the chemistry of blue bruising and propose a mechanism for the chemical reaction that causes this unique effect.

January 04, 2019 - Science Review Team

Blue bruising is one of the most famous features of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. Blue bruising (along with two other features) provides strong evidence that a particular mushroom is an active psilocybin mushroom. The complete 3-part test for identifying an active psilocybin mushroom is as follows:

The mushroom bruises bluish;
The mushroom deposits a purple-brown spore print; and
The mushroom has a semi-gelatinous separable pellicle.

Blue bruising of Psilocybe azurescens – Note the blue color on the stem and along the edge of the cap.

Although the bluing reaction is widely known and discussed, no one has identified the cause of the bluish color. According to Paul Stamets in Psilocybin Mushrooms of the World, “No one, to date, has been able to pinpoint the chemical structure of the bluing compound.”

Stamets contends that the bluish pigmentation is “a result of a phenomenon paralleling the degradation of unstable psilocin (dephosphorylated psilocybin) to presently unknown compounds by enzymes within the mushroom cells. What this means is that when a Psilocybe or Panaeolus bruises bluish, the color reaction is a co-indicator that psilocin is or was present. Naturally, since the bluing phenomenon appears to be a parallel decomposition sequence, the more the mushrooms are bruised the less potent they become.”

Bluing reaction of Psilocybe cyanescens, an active psilocybin mushroom. Note the blue color around the edge of the cap.

Other researchers agree that the bluing has little to do with the overall content of psilocin or psilocybin.1-3 If the blue color arises from the degradation of active molecules, then at best it provides an indicator of how potent the mushroom was – before the bruising. Notably, several mushrooms (e.g., some Boletus species) which do not contain any psilocybin or psilocin have a bluing reaction. However, that bluing reaction in those species is probably different — namely different molecules, a different shade of blue, and a different reaction leading to it. It is also known that some mushrooms that do contain psilocybin and psilocin do not bruise at all.
What Is Known About the Blue Color

Several different explanations have been offered for the bluing reaction in psilocybin mushrooms. The correct answer must account for all of the known facts. Here is a summary of the significant facts:

The bluish color arises upon damage to the psilocybin comprising mushroom. This can occur by manipulating the mushroom. It can also occur from environmental factors, such as microbial contamination. See Black Rot. In either case, damage to the mushroom’s structure exposes the molecules to ambient oxygen.
The bluish compound is water soluble and remains in the aqueous layer upon filtration and/or washing with non-polar solvents such as hexanes.
Adding an antioxidant (e.g., ascorbic acid and/or sodium ascorbate) prevents bluing within a suspension of mushroom material in water.
Adding an antioxidant (e.g., ascorbic acid and/or sodium ascorbate) to a blue aqueous solution (i.e., an aqueous solution comprising the blue compound) eliminates the blue color to provide a clear colorless solution.
The presence of psilocybin and/or psilocin appears to be required for bluing, however,
The presence of psilocybin and/or psilocin does not guarantee blue bruising. In other words, the psilocybin and/or psilocin must react with something else aside from just water and oxygen in order to generate the blue compound.

It has been known since the 1960s that psilocin is readily oxidized by enzymes to a blue color in various animal tissue preparations.4–7 The blue color obtained when psilocin is incubated with the enzyme copper oxidase from mammalian serum had an absorption spectrum of 620-625 mµ and a smaller peak at 400 mµ.8 I has been proposed by researchers and summarized by Dinis-Oliveria that the blue component may have an o-quinone or iminoquinone structure.9 However, these studies using mammalian tissues may not represent the mechanism by which the blue color forms in Psilocybe species.

In 1960, Blaschko and Levine proposed two possible structures for the blue oxidation product from psilocin: 7

Two possible structures proposed by Blaschko and Levine in 1960 for the molecule created from the psilocybin bluing reaction.7

In 1967, Levine reported in Nature that the oxidative formation of the blue color from psilocin could be accomplished without enzymes in the presence of ferric iron.8 A further test showed EDTA (ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid) and other chelating agents (chemicals that react with metal) blocked the reaction, verifying the observation was correct. Based on an analysis of the research at the time, Levine proposed the following reaction for the formation of the blue product:

Proposed Mechanism for the Bluing Reaction

Based on the above facts, it appears that the bluing reaction requires two components: (1) a psilocin derivative and (2) another biological component present in some but not all psilocybin mushrooms. See facts 5 & 6 above.

We propose that the blue color is due to a transition metal compound (probably a copper compound) comprising a psilocin derivative. The copper reagent probably comes from an enzyme present in many (but not all) species of psilocybin-containing mushrooms. Upon exposure to oxygen and water, psilocybin/psilocin reacts with the copper reagent to generate a new (blue, water soluble) copper coordination compound. Many copper compounds are known to have a deep blue color.4 Notably, many copper amines are deep blue. The most famous (and fundamental) example is probably adding ammonia to a solution of copper (2+) ion.5

This mechanism also accounts for facts 3 & 4 above because adding ascorbic acid to the solution would destroy the blue copper compound, e.g., by reducing the copper from Cu(2+) to Cu(1+).
Further Research Regarding Bluing Reaction

Our current understanding of the psilocybin bluing reaction highlights the unmet need for better psilocybin chemistry. Here, a few relatively simple chemical experiments could help us elucidate the blue color observed up bruising many varieties of psilocybin mushrooms.

For example, could we synthesize and characterize a series of copper tryptamine compounds, demonstrating a blue color? If so, we could also explain the varying shades of blue that are observed in different species of mushrooms. From Shroomery: “There is also another tryptamine alkaloid found in some mushrooms, called aeruginascin. It is believed to contain phosphorus like psilocybin, norbaeocystin, and baeocystin. Mushrooms with this alkaloid tend to stain greenish-blue instead of the normal cyan blue that regular psychedelic mushrooms stain.”

It would also be informative to perform some experiments using pure psilocin and/or psilocybin — both with and without the presence of oxygen. This experiment would likely show that the oxidation of psilocin and/or psilocybin does not lead to a blue compound absent some other factor (e.g. copper-containing enzymes as described above) that is present in naturally occurring psilocybin mushrooms.

Edited by Cuboid, 06 February 2019 - 04:29 PM.

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#44 Soliver

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 04:38 PM

Side experiment ....

 

If you toss some citric acid into that stuff, will the blue fade away?  I've found that to be the case with some 40% ethanol extractions that came out blue.  90% extractions don't blue one me though. 

 

You science-y peeps can work that one out, I guess.

 

:)

 

soliver



#45 Cuboid

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 04:41 PM

"Adding an antioxidant (e.g., ascorbic acid and/or sodium ascorbate) prevents bluing within a suspension of mushroom material in water.
Adding an antioxidant (e.g., ascorbic acid and/or sodium ascorbate) to a blue aqueous solution (i.e., an aqueous solution comprising the blue compound) eliminates the blue color to provide a clear colorless solution."

#46 sandman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 05:40 PM

As anecdotal information, I had a batch of malabars that blued like nobodies business that was TOTALLY BUNK! Like....nothing. You could eat a quarter and just be pissed off.


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#47 onediadem

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 08:02 PM

Malabars gave me the meanest body load I have ever experienced. Did you notice a substantial increase in body load with them?



#48 sandman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 09:49 PM

Yes it was either weird and ultra light body buzz  or jack diddly.



#49 cg3p0

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:25 PM

Thanks for digging up all that info Cuboid.  So the blue water might not be desirable at all.  I did some digging to and found some interesting stuff.  I was wondering why regular mushroom tea from dried mushrooms comes out brown and not blue.  Further searching i discovered people who left thier tea sitting around for a while have noticed it changes color to blue.  Sandman can you confirm this?  Here is a link over on shroomery where someone noticed this and others confirmed it.

https://www.shroomer...1/fpart/1/vc/1 

 

So it looks like it just takes some time to start breaking down once in solution.  Not sure why fresh mushrooms bruise so rapidly comparatively though.

 

I really like that last post of info you had Cuboid, more up to date than other stuff ive come across.  I have heard numerous anacdotes about acidic solutions making extracts better, but this info is suggesting that its not acid, its antioxidants that are really doing the magic.  They are suggesting ascorbic acid which is an acid or sodium ascorbate which is a base.  So then maybe its not true that adding any acid will work like lemon tek does(lemons just happening to have ascorbic acid in them)  which is why this guy using a different acid,vineger, still had blue in his extract.

https://mycotopia.ne...onpreservation/

 

Im wondering if the antioxidants are keeping the psilocin from oxidizing not only while storing it in solution but also as it travels through your body after ingestion possibly explainging reports of people feeling stronger effects doing the lemon tek.

 

In some info i found, link below, researchers were drying samples of mushrooms to test for psilocin and psilocybin content and found that 90% of the psilocin was lost drying at 140F.  They also found that freeze drying was the best drying method to preserve the psilocin and psilocybin.

https://www.scienced...mistry/psilocin

 

That would explain the anacdotes ive read about panaeolus specing losing potency drying with heat. So the colder the better for drying or extracting. 

 

 

With all that info put together i would think this ice blue juice is still a good idea but needs the addition of an antioxidant in the water.  But then it would no longer be blue juice :blink:   If all that is true you would get the benefit less degradation of psilocin by extracting them cold before they have been air dried and also the long term storage of the psilocin by adding the antioxidants and the kick ass trip as well from the addition of antioxidants.  Sounds like about the best you can possibly hope for really, with freeze drying coming in second because you cant get the antioxidants in them (or maybe you could figure that out somehow) 

 

I found a vid of Paul explaining what he saw as the benifit of his blue juice method (1:17:55)

 

[Direct Link]


Edited by cg3p0, 06 February 2019 - 11:27 PM.


#50 sandman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:34 PM

my golden teachers dried at 145f for 24 hours that will blow your titties off at 1gram say otherwise about heat.


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#51 sandman

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:39 PM

also I have never left a tea around long enough in raw form to see if it goes blue after the brown personally.



#52 Juthro

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Posted 06 February 2019 - 11:41 PM

I can confirm that tea if left overnight will turn blue.  I also think that once it does, it looses some of its kick, at least IMO.

 

Here is a link to my observations, if your interested in reading old threads.

 

https://mycotopia.ne...22-blue-jell-o/

 

 

 


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#53 cg3p0

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 12:14 AM

Sandman

Not every mushroom variety would be affected by heat.  Species with high psilocybin and low psilocin you probably would not notice any difference.  That is probably what is going on there with your golden teachers.

 

Soliver

That is interesting that your 40% solutions would blue, but not the 90% solutions.  Alcohol is not an antioxidant although some alcohols have antioxidants in them like red wine.  Im guessing it has more to do with oxygen in that case.  Obviously the oxygen in water is enough to cause blueing from what we have seen. The 40%  alcohol would have more water in it.  Any chemists want to chime in about the oxygen carrying capacity of alcohol or something else obvious im missing.

 

Juthro

thanks for the confirmation.  Im guessing its just the low oxygen levels in water that cause it to take so long to turn blue compared to fresh mushrooms exposed to much more oxygen that blue so rapidly.


Edited by cg3p0, 07 February 2019 - 12:21 AM.


#54 cg3p0

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 01:12 AM

Cuboid

"But really i think its mainly for lab type stuff to keep the psilocybin intact during the extraction." - I thought the blue was degraded psilocin?

 

Sorry yea that should have been psilocin, way to beat down my mistake  :deadhorse:     :biggrin:


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#55 Cuboid

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 03:53 AM

Cuboid
"But really i think its mainly for lab type stuff to keep the psilocybin intact during the extraction." - I thought the blue was degraded psilocin?

Sorry yea that should have been psilocin, way to beat down my mistake :deadhorse: :biggrin:

Sorry, wasn't trying to be mean. I can have a tendency to be blunt.
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#56 cg3p0

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:00 AM

Haha, im the same way Cuboid.  Im more intrested in truth and facts than preserving my ego so thanks for catching it.

 

 

This subject kept me up thinking about it last night.  Im wondering if the blue is just something like the oxide form of psilocin.  So no blue is just psilocin and blue is "psilocin oxide".  That might not be technicaly correct but im speculating its behaving in a similar fashon.  From all the anacdotes and papers we have come across i think its safe to say that this blueing "psilocin oxide" is no longer psychedelicly active.  Sure, many blue solutions or mushrooms are still active though because not all the psilocin in them has degraded or there is still psilocybin left in there.  

 

Then we go to the question-  Why does adding an antioxidant into a blue solution make the blue go away?

 

Well, if the blue is acting like an oxide we can look to something else for answers.  Take iron.  When iron oxidizes it turns into iron oxide(rust).  When this happens the iron does not disappear or go away, it just gets converted into another form.  Under the right conditions (lots of heat) you can turn the iron oxide back into iron.  

 

So could it be that the blue "psilocin oxide" under the right conditions (antioxidants) gets turned back into psilocin.  That would possibly mean you would never have to worry about degradation of your mushrooms (within reason) as long as you add a little antioxidant they would always be just as strong as they were when they were fresh.

 

 

 

 

As anecdotal information, I had a batch of malabars that blued like nobodies business that was TOTALLY BUNK! Like....nothing. You could eat a quarter and just be pissed off.

 

 

Sandman do you still have these mushrooms laying around somewhere?  If what im hypothesizing is true, you should be able to lemon tek them and bring them totally back to life.


Edited by cg3p0, 07 February 2019 - 10:41 AM.

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#57 sandman

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 10:59 AM

Nah man I 86'd those bitches into the sun.



#58 hyphaenation

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Posted 07 February 2019 - 07:40 PM

About 10 years ago I discovered the blue goop when I went to freeze cyans for later use...Should have tried eating it anyways!

" hyphaenation29 Dec 2012

I once froze a bunch of my very first P. Cyanescens wavy-caps thinking I'd preserve them to give a friend in a few days. I wrapped them in a paper towel and then put them in a ziplock in the freezer. A few days later i took them out and brought them to town. When I went to give them to my friend they had thawed and completely melted to true mush ... but , the amazing thing was the most incredible indigo blue ink had stained the paper towel. I've never seen anything like it , it was so deep blue and a huge stain. I was thinking it would be cool to do different species/strains this way in the same amounts and compare staining on the paper-towel."

https://mycotopia.ne...s/#entry1066523

Edited by hyphaenation, 07 February 2019 - 07:46 PM.

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#59 hyphaenation

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 12:16 AM

Also tried literally juicing cyans ... in a wheatgrass juicer. The liquid came out clear and then turned blue , bluer and finally black. I was to chicken to dose on it but a friend did some and said it was potent (although details were scarce). I would definitely try it again in the future and try dosing the liquid. I think it could be juiced in to a bowl of alcohol and then put in a dark bottle and dosed though a dropper.
 

post-104353-0-05114100-1477531025_thumb.

 

 

post-104353-0-77135400-1477531010_thumb.

 

post-104353-0-37477000-1477535800_thumb.

I forgot that I filmed the maiden juicing ! 

https://mycotopia.ne...90#entry1292388


Edited by hyphaenation, 08 February 2019 - 12:18 AM.

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#60 pharmer

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Posted 08 February 2019 - 09:22 PM

About 10 years ago I discovered the blue goop when I went to freeze cyans for later use...Should have tried eating it anyways!

" hyphaenation29 Dec 2012

I once froze a bunch of my very first P. Cyanescens wavy-caps thinking I'd preserve them to give a friend in a few days. I wrapped them in a paper towel and then put them in a ziplock in the freezer. A few days later i took them out and brought them to town. When I went to give them to my friend they had thawed and completely melted to true mush ... but , the amazing thing was the most incredible indigo blue ink had stained the paper towel. I've never seen anything like it , it was so deep blue and a huge stain. I was thinking it would be cool to do different species/strains this way in the same amounts and compare staining on the paper-towel."

https://mycotopia.ne...s/#entry1066523

with any luck every species would stain a different color or different shade and you'd have a fairly reliable identification tool

 

Soliver

That is interesting that your 40% solutions would blue, but not the 90% solutions.  Alcohol is not an antioxidant although some alcohols have antioxidants in them like red wine.  Im guessing it has more to do with oxygen in that case.  Obviously the oxygen in water is enough to cause blueing from what we have seen. The 40%  alcohol would have more water in it.  Any chemists want to chime in about the oxygen carrying capacity of alcohol or something else obvious im missing.

 

If the water is the culprit then less water should yield less blue out of the same weight of fruits, correct?

 

So I propose a test. Get some Everclear that's approximately 50%, and the Everclear that's the max alcohol which I believe is around 75%, and some lab grade ethanol which should be damned near water free. Then soak an equal weight of fruits in equal amounts of the varying ethanol/water solutions. MAYBE the 50% alc/water mix would oxidize more than the lab grade ethanol??

 

With this test you could eliminate at least one of the variables.


Edited by pharmer, 08 February 2019 - 09:29 PM.

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