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Micropore tape under the microscope


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#1 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 05:14 PM

Here's an image of 3M micropore tape, magnified 200 times:

 

Micropore tape @200X.jpg

 

It's a stacked image, layered from 21 snapshots taken at different focal depths. The large coffin-shaped gap indicated by the red arrow is about 119 μm long, and roughly 39 μm across, at its widest point. 

 

By comparison, a Trichoderma spore is less than 5 μm long, and most bacteria are barely half that.

 

So, if you're using the stuff (as I sometimes do) to cover GE holes in spawn jars, apply 3 or 4 layers.

 

 


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#2 coorsmikey

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 05:17 PM

Nice! thanks for the update! Someone did this many years ago and the threads get lost. It's nice to see a fresh proof for the newer generation. I just copied this to vaults before it gets cluttered up, hope that's alright?


Edited by coorsmikey, 20 January 2019 - 05:20 PM.

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#3 Deleena24

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 05:22 PM

Can you show a lower magnification? Do the threads generally run in a certain direction? I ask bc if they do,alternating the direction of tape would probably be a good idea.

#4 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 05:49 PM

Nice! thanks for the update! Someone did this many years ago and the threads get lost. It's nice to see a fresh proof for the newer generation. I just copied this to vaults before it gets cluttered up, hope that's alright?

Of course!



#5 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 05:55 PM

Can you show a lower magnification? Do the threads generally run in a certain direction? I ask bc if they do,alternating the direction of tape would probably be a good idea.S

I just had a look at 40X, and there doesn't seem to be any direction to the strands. I'll add an image, later.


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#6 PsyBearknot

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 06:28 PM

nice, thank you!



#7 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 07:58 PM

As requested, the same piece of tape @40X:

 

micropore tape @40X .jpg

 

A Jackson Pollock painting, essentially. :biggrin:


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#8 Deleena24

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 08:10 PM

Ok, so there would he no point in alternating the direction youd put the tape on. Just apply as necessary...

Thank you for posting it.

#9 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 08:19 PM

Ok, so there would he no point in alternating the direction youd put the tape on. Just apply as necessary...

Thank you for posting it.

Criss-crossing does give lots of contact with the metal or plastic of the lid.

 

So far, I've had no contaminants with 3 layers of tape over a 3/8" hole....and plenty of vigorous shaking.

 

Lately, though, I've stopped using GE holes, and the jars seem to be doing fine.


Edited by WalkingCatfish, 20 January 2019 - 08:20 PM.

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#10 Deleena24

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 11:20 PM


Ok, so there would he no point in alternating the direction youd put the tape on. Just apply as necessary...

Thank you for posting it.

Criss-crossing does give lots of contact with the metal or plastic of the lid.

So far, I've had no contaminants with 3 layers of tape over a 3/8" hole....and plenty of vigorous shaking.

Lately, though, I've stopped using GE holes, and the jars seem to be doing fine.

I'm assuming you leave a nice amount of space in the jar. You dont get slowed or stalled growth?

#11 WalkingCatfish

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 11:25 PM

Jars are two thirds full, give or take. I've been using those plastic Ziploc twist n' loc jars, which have a pretty big air space in the top. Also, I don't crank the lids down tight, so maybe there's a bit of exchange through the threads of the jar?  Anyway, I think I'm done with holes.



#12 raymycoto

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 11:49 PM

 

Jars are two thirds full, give or take. I've been using those plastic Ziploc twist n' loc jars, which have a pretty big air space in the top. Also, I don't crank the lids down tight, so maybe there's a bit of exchange through the threads of the jar?  Anyway, I think I'm done with holes.

 

I guarantee that you do have some leak around your jar lids for GE and that's a good thing. I have played around extensively with lid holes and filters and measured CO2 and O2 in both jars with proper GE and others that are totally sealed. The myc in a spawn jar will definitely exhaust the O2 and the CO2 will rise to over 250 torr (around 30%) before stalling. O2 at this point will be around 3 or 4%.

 

I, too, had the idea that perhaps I could totally seal a jar with a rather huge ratio of air to spawn volume. I did several jars with about 200 cc of grain spawn to the remainder of the quart free air or about a 1:4 ratio. My thinking was that perhaps there is some ratio that will allow a totally sealed jar.

 

Well there may be and certainly is some ratio that would work but turns out that it was not 1:4. Those sealed jars eventually exhausted their O2 in spite of the 200 cc grain and 800 cc air and that was over about one week. And I had even flushed 2 of 4 jars with pure O2 and it did not seem to make a difference. This was not a super thorough investigation but it told me what I wanted to know - that there did not appear to be a practical low limit to a spawn volume that would self sustain in a closed jar. That is, the amount of spawn would be so small as to be rather useless.

 

I got the idea from the fact that a sealed petri seems to never exhaust its O2 nor get excessively hypercapnic. (I poked holes in some month to 6 week old, well colonized (to the point of bluing) saran sealed plates with a needle and sampled the gas finding O2 still at around 15% and CO2 of 70mmHg. Perhaps saran is partly gas permeable though, don't know.

 

Sorry, long winded answer to why I feel confident you have a therapeutic gas leak in those lids. Perhaps just the right amount.

 

Another bit of trivia I found out the hard way. If you PC or autoclave a jar top with micropore on top and / or hit it with alcohol, you had better replace the micropore. This renders it non gas permeable. The adhesive gets gummy and covers the pores. I had a batch of jars stall and basically die and they had off the chart CO2 and no O2. I had been hitting the jars with alcohol spray on several occasions and I think they were pc'd with the micropore on the lids from prior grow. The micropore was totally gummed up.

 

Fascinating about the big pores seen under the microscope. I have wondered about that. Sometimes that tape seems a bit patchy when you hold a piece up to a light source.


Edited by raymycoto, 20 January 2019 - 11:51 PM.

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#13 MysticalMyco

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 12:24 AM

I use these synthetic discs. Here's what most of my jars look like.

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#14 sandman

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 06:27 AM

it wouldnt be a raymycoto post unless he mentions measuring co2!  :wub:


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#15 MysticalMyco

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 08:12 AM

I bought a 12x pack quart jars and an additional 2x more jars since my cooker holds 7x jars per run that way I could do 2x full runs (14x jars total). I only converted the original 12x with the lids I posted, ^^^^ above ^^^^. It wasn't intentional it was because I bought a dozen self healing ports/ synthetic discs & haven't needed anything else from that specific vendor again.

The 2x jars with regular lids keep up in growth with the other 12x jars just fine. It hasn't been an issue for me. When I first started doing it I figured oh well worst case is I'll loose two jars. But I never lost them so I never converted them to breathable SHIP lids. I may have air leakage like raymycoto says however I do know I really have to pry those baby's off because the rubber on the edge of the lid gets sticky from the high heat PC process.

I also don't have any holes on my 90qt sterilite containers that I do bulk sub grows in lol. I figure I'm in those things at least every 8 hours 3-4 times a day at least. They'll be fine. I've been meaning to put some holes in one of them to see if it makes a difference. Never got around to it.

Edited by MysticalMyco, 21 January 2019 - 08:26 AM.


#16 jkdeth

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 09:31 AM

There's actually a lot of people growing with unmodified plastic lids these days without issue. There is intentional leakage, the lids are left a fraction of a turn loose. That's actually the part I don't like about it, I like tight lids. I see myself holding a lid and an open jar of spawn flying across the room. Lol.
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#17 raymycoto

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 10:43 AM

Mystical - I like your lid with SHIP and filter and the red caulking. Is that some kind of high temp caulk? I guess the regular clear or white stuff for the home stuff works ok. Just wondering if you have found something better?

 

While on the topic of lid seals. Got a question. Like JK, I like to be able to have a good seal when I need one. And I'm talking about sterilized grain that might sit around for a month before use in a quart jar. So those jars better have the vacuum under the lid that I have to pry off. If they do have that vacuum, well, they seem to last indefinitely like a jar of fruit from the PC.

 

But after a few PCs, the red goop around the edge of the lid gets compresses and sometimes even peels off, rendering the top ineffective for creating the vacuum seal intended, although still good for general use or adding SHIPS or whatever. That red sealant is something that seems to melt a bit at PC temps then stays sticky and hardens. The recommendation on the lids from the manufacturer is, of course, single use.

 

Do you know of a way to restore the lids with some sort of calking or plastic with these properties? I know there are gaskets you can order to go under the lids but they require a somewhat tight seal with the band in order to function and this is not good in the PC. A new lid can just be set onto the jar and the band super loose and it will seal on its own.



#18 MysticalMyco

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 11:17 AM

It's called High Temp RTV Silicone. Sometimes it's labeled as High Temp RTV Gasket Maker. It easily withstands 400°F and can hold it's integrity up to 650°F. I just assumed most people around here used it. I see it used alot for constructing breathable lids. You can also use it to make homemade self healing injection ports by putting a thick glob over any hole. The needle goes right through it then it closes back up.

Here is a link to the exact brand I use.
https://www.amazon.c...340_FMwebp_QL65

It's also good for bush fixing stuff that heats up and needs an O ring or a gasket like a small engine or piece of equipment.

Use gloves it's bright red and gets all through the ridges of your fingers if not.
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#19 MysticalMyco

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 11:26 AM

I never tried it but I'm sure you could use a very light bit of the gasket maker ^^^ above ^^^

It's high temp it would give you like a rubber ring. I would run it over the old one and not close it. I would leave the lids upside down. It will dry in a cylindrical shaped bead at whichever diameter the applicator on the red gasket maker is cut to.

The other option is to do the exact same thing in the above paragraph but close the lid as soon as you put it on. That will give you a one-time seal for storage. Then you could peal it off once you use the grain and it served it's purpose.

Like I said I've never used it like that but that's what it's designed to do. It's litterally a high temp gasket maker.

#20 Deleena24

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 12:34 PM

I like tight lids, too. Lids are way too easy to make the right way for me to trust leaving the lids loose.

Any GE the unmodified lids get isnt filtered, and I work hard to keep things sterile.

I can also see myself dropping jars from loose lids. LoL

Does anyone use unmodified lids for exotics? Or are cubes the only magic that can withstand that much CO2?

Edit- the RTV silicone is sold at pretty much any hardware store or auto store. In Home Depot and Lowes, it's in the Auto section. Regular people use it to seal engine gaskets, and as you know engines exceed the 250degrees of a PC easily. It's great stuff. Less than $4 Comes in black and white, and 1 tube will last you a good while.

Edited by Deleena24, 21 January 2019 - 12:38 PM.

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