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Rectal administration of psilocybin


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#21 Cuboid

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 04:28 PM

Good to know. I'm OK with drinking tea it seems bit in case the day comes when I can't it's good to know a simple low tek diy alternative ROA is ablvailable.
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#22 DonShadow

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 04:46 PM

I didn't read the posts in this thread so if someone already mentioned an extract, please carry on.

https://mycotopia.ne...thanol-extract/

Pure ethanol extracts remove most if not all of the nausea causing compounds IME.


Thanks CatsAndBats. My friend has already tried 4-AcO-DMT, which I suspect would be similar in effect to an extraction, but this still caused severe nausea. There's something else going on beyond some irritant or toxin present in the mushroom material.
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#23 PistolPete13

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Posted 11 March 2019 - 09:08 PM

 

There's something else going on beyond some irritant or toxin present in the mushroom material.

 

There is brother, and I am sorry to have to break it to you. But if you look up any clinical trials of pharmaceutically pure psilocybin, at least 20% of patients experience nausea. Headaches are common also, it has to do with one of the receptors it binds to. If you want more info let me know I will post it here.........


Edited by PistolPete13, 11 March 2019 - 09:09 PM.


#24 DonShadow

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 12:43 AM


There's something else going on beyond some irritant or toxin present in the mushroom material.


There is brother, and I am sorry to have to break it to you. But if you look up any clinical trials of pharmaceutically pure psilocybin, at least 20% of patients experience nausea. Headaches are common also, it has to do with one of the receptors it binds to. If you want more info let me know I will post it here.........

I'd be very interested to hear any information you may have on the subject Pete, thank you. My suspicion is that psilocybin interacts with the vagus nerve, which I believe is a 5-HT2a receptor site. I am trying to abide by my friend's own self-assessment, which is that his vagus nerve has been sensitive to many things beyond psilocybin mushrooms for his whole life.

No doubt there is a connection between the vagus and psilocybin, since the vagus system seems to be synonymous with Kundalini, and well, "Kundalini" energy is an archetypal psilocybin experience which I am very familiar with. I suspect that a huge part of the healing action of psilocybin is the reestablished union between the vagus system and the brain. When it happens, holy shit, there's no denying it.

#25 DonShadow

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 01:11 AM

Oops, my bad, the vagus nerve/system contains 5-HT3 receptor sites, which interact with serotonin. I do not know if that means they also interact with psilocin.

From Wikipedia:
Efferent vagus nerve fibers innervating the pharynx and back of the throat are responsible for the gag reflex. In addition, 5-HT3 receptor-mediated afferent vagus stimulation in the gut due to gastroenteritis is a cause of vomiting.[4]

#26 PistolPete13

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 02:50 AM

Sure, here are just some examples of what I was talking about;

 

Study #1;

 

Frequency:
transient anxiety (100%), confusion or
thought disorder (75%), nausea (33%),
headache (33%), paranoia (8%)

Study #2;

 

Frequency:
transient elevations in BP and HR (76%),
headaches (28%), anxiety (17%), nausea
(14%), psychotic-like symptoms (7%)

 

Frequency (high vs. low dose):
transient elevated SBP > 160 mm Hg (34%
vs. 17%), elevated DBP > 100 mm Hg (13%
vs. 2%), nausea/vomiting (15% vs. 0%),
physical discomfort (21% vs. 8%),
psychological discomfort (32% vs. 12%),
anxiety (26% vs. 15%), paranoid ideation
(2% vs. 0%)
No statistical testing

 

Attached File  thomas2017.pdf   1.08MB   7 downloads

 

Around 30% from this paper from the Lancet;

https://www.thelance...0065-7/fulltext

 

And that is pretty standard for trials using pharmaceutical grade psilocybin.

 

Regarding the Vagus nerve that is an interesting theory, it definitely has been linked to nausea and vomiting. And you were right originally that 5-ht receptors can stimulate the Vegas nerve. Even peripheral 5-ht2a receptors are present along the vagus nerve. Also McKenna suggested psilocybin binds to the 5-ht3 receptors but I have not seen it backed up in the scientific literature.

 

So if he has trouble with this he will probably have trouble with all the good ones unfortunately. If you end up reading up on the clinical psilocybin trials it was much more likely to happen on a higher dose, you can see in the last example above they had 0% issues when using low doses.

 

 

I suspect that a huge part of the healing action of psilocybin is the reestablished union between the vagus system and the brain. When it happens, holy shit, there's no denying it.

 

This is interesting and something I need to think about(to process).


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#27 vork21

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 02:50 AM

I didn't read the posts in this thread so if someone already mentioned an extract, please carry on.

 

https://mycotopia.ne...thanol-extract/

 

Pure ethanol extracts remove most if not all of the nausea causing compounds IME. 

 

My lans, Everclear in the bum sounds even worse than lemon.  :eek:



#28 pharmer

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:42 AM

a related science question

 

IF one were to use the lemon tek and successfully dissolve the actives in lemon water

 

could the solution then be brought to pH neutral without damaging the actives?

 

if so, it should make the enema tolerable

 

and Shadow, you are a good friend


Edited by pharmer, 12 March 2019 - 08:43 AM.

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#29 swayambhu

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 09:31 AM

With respect to your friend, and in light of references to the subtle/gross energetic/neural pathways, perhaps taking a holistic view of why this is happening.
Does your friend smoke? The effect of tobacco can stop energetic flow through the area of the sternum, particularly the diaphragm, which is key to both breathing and vomiting, and is a key axial point between the upper and lower groups of "chakras". Smoking, lack of exercise and poor diet may be a component to your friends discomfort, or perhaps the main reason. May sound like pure woo on some levels, maybe on some levels it sounds like common sense?
Apologies for any lack of cohesion here, I'm surreptitiously typing this at work.
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#30 CatsAndBats

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 09:35 AM

 

I didn't read the posts in this thread so if someone already mentioned an extract, please carry on.

 

https://mycotopia.ne...thanol-extract/

 

Pure ethanol extracts remove most if not all of the nausea causing compounds IME. 

 

My lans, Everclear in the bum sounds even worse than lemon.  :eek:

 

 

I meant for oral administration.



#31 coorsmikey

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 10:02 AM

Does the friend get car sick easy? Or perhaps on roller coasters and such. It could be possible he is getting motion sickness from the crazy kaleidoscope patterns and all the time traveling. Have you considered possibly taking some Dramamine prior to lift off? Of course, do some research first, I have no clue on the risks of mixing Dramamine with any Tryptamines.


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#32 DonShadow

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 12:21 PM

PistolPete: Thanks very much for providing those stats. I'm intrigued to see that synthetic analogues so frequently cause nausea. I wonder how these stats would compare to say, water extraction, alcohol extraction or plain fruitbody. Headaches are pretty much standard for me, particularly with woodlovers (seriously nasty headaches with these every time). Very minor nausea is something I always deal with during onset if I don't fast.

 

I have a couple of 4-AcO-DMT capsules at 35mg, which, from what I have read equates roughly to 4g cubes in potency. I'll give one of these a go and report my findings back here. I should state that my friend experienced slightly less nausea with the 4-AcO-DMT than with 6g cubensis tea. This may be because the 6g delivered a significantly stiffer wallop.

 

Very intriguing to hear about Terence McKenna's speculations about psilocybin and 5-HT3 receptors. If you happen to have a source for that I'd love to read about his perspective.

 

 

a related science question

 

IF one were to use the lemon tek and successfully dissolve the actives in lemon water

 

could the solution then be brought to pH neutral without damaging the actives?

 

if so, it should make the enema tolerable

 

and Shadow, you are a good friend

 

This is a good question, and I would be happy to experiment with this, thanks for bringing it to the table. I suppose I could just add a little bit of baking soda or calcium carbonate to the brew. I don't have an easy way to measure pH unfortunately. If anyone has any suggestions for how to do this reliably I'm all ears.

 

 

With respect to your friend, and in light of references to the subtle/gross energetic/neural pathways, perhaps taking a holistic view of why this is happening.
Does your friend smoke? The effect of tobacco can stop energetic flow through the area of the sternum, particularly the diaphragm, which is key to both breathing and vomiting, and is a key axial point between the upper and lower groups of "chakras". Smoking, lack of exercise and poor diet may be a component to your friends discomfort, or perhaps the main reason. May sound like pure woo on some levels, maybe on some levels it sounds like common sense?
Apologies for any lack of cohesion here, I'm surreptitiously typing this at work.

 

I totally agree Swayambhu, my first thought is always that the mushroom is trying to reveal the source of the problem. He doesn't drink, is not a smoker, but was a pack-a-day smoker for many years before he quit two years ago. However, he is fairly inactive, a poor eater and a chronic cannabis smoker, so what you've said may certainly still apply. My first approach was to tell him what worked for me (quitting smoking, drinking, cannabis, caffeine, exercising more, eating wholesome food), but he is very hesitant to change his behavior. I am not at all interested in being his daddy and telling him what to do, after all I am his friend, not his doctor. I stand by the conviction that the source of his problem is loneliness, and probably boredom, so listening to his wishes and being a friend is the best I can do for him.

 

---Just for the record, the guy is a recluse, a long-time acquaintance of mine, to whom I have provided various forms of charity in the past. I do not perform any kind of  "psychedelic psychotherapy" for anyone ever, (monetized or otherwise), nor do I wish to. I will occasionally take mushrooms with people, at their request, as a friend, not a "shaman", and I do not dispense unwarranted or untrained "wisdom". I told him what worked for me, and left him to ponder that. All I want to do is help him find what he wants, which is to get the stuff inside of him in a way that won't annihilate his insides, and then let the mushroom do the rest.

 

 

Does the friend get car sick easy? Or perhaps on roller coasters and such. It could be possible he is getting motion sickness from the crazy kaleidoscope patterns and all the time traveling. Have you considered possibly taking some Dramamine prior to lift off? Of course, do some research first, I have no clue on the risks of mixing Dramamine with any Tryptamines.

 

Thanks Coors, I'll ask him about motion sickness. I generally shy away from these kinds of solutions, but I will read up and see if this might be helpful. The thing is, he is so turned off from the harrowing bouts of nausea that I don't think he wants to put psilocybin anywhere near his mouth under any circumstances.

 

I really appreciate all the insights folks, you guys/gals are the best!


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#33 swayambhu

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 03:23 PM

 

 

---Just for the record, the guy is a recluse, a long-time acquaintance of mine, to whom I have provided various forms of charity in the past. I do not perform any kind of  "psychedelic psychotherapy" for anyone ever, (monetized or otherwise), nor do I wish to. I will occasionally take mushrooms with people, at their request, as a friend, not a "shaman", and I do not dispense unwarranted or untrained "wisdom". I told him what worked for me, and left him to ponder that. All I want to do is help him find what he wants, which is to get the stuff inside of him in a way that won't annihilate his insides, and then let the mushroom do the rest.

 

 

 

My apologies if my last post somehow posited you as being an agent of healing in your friend. It was my round about, non-occam's razor-y way of suggesting that the use of occam's razor would suggest that your friend feels unwell because he is unwell. Doesn't sound so clever when I put it like that.

But as I am sure you would agree, when dealing with the mushrooms his persistant nausea would seem like a big flashing arrow sign pointing at... something.


Edited by swayambhu, 12 March 2019 - 03:24 PM.

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#34 swayambhu

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 03:26 PM

Has anybody tried snorting mushrooms? A tiny tiny bit of slaked lime ("chuna") mixed with finely powdered mushrooms. I must try it myself sometime.



#35 DonShadow

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 04:15 PM

My apologies if my last post somehow posited you as being an agent of healing in your friend. It was my round about, non-occam's razor-y way of suggesting that the use of occam's razor would suggest that your friend feels unwell because he is unwell. Doesn't sound so clever when I put it like that.

 

But as I am sure you would agree, when dealing with the mushrooms his persistant nausea would seem like a big flashing arrow sign pointing at... something.

 

 

No worries dude, I definitely didn't take it as such. I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not providing or soliciting an uncredentialed service. I definitely agree that the nausea indicates a problem, but purging of the nature I witnessed indicates to me that the guy is massively repressed, due to years and years of cloistering and holding back. These repressions tend to emerge rather explosively, and good luck pinning the source to just one thing. Disconnection from other people and one's place in community is the cause of terrible suffering, and if I had to narrow it down I would say this is the genesis of his unhappiness. Luckily he's not a sociopath (as far as I am able to tell), and has done a lot of self-work already. I just want to help him get high, which is the desire he has expressed. Regardless of the outcome, he just wants to gain the motivation to break out of his shell. I think that's something worth working toward.


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#36 PistolPete13

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 06:06 PM

a related science question

 

IF one were to use the lemon tek and successfully dissolve the actives in lemon water

 

could the solution then be brought to pH neutral without damaging the actives?

 

if so, it should make the enema tolerable

 

and Shadow, you are a good friend

 

Yes sir! I would recommend sodium bicarb to neutralize, it is easy to get. Its gentle and if you do add too much it will not attack the psilocin.

 

Sorry missed your question Don, just add an excess!


Edited by PistolPete13, 12 March 2019 - 06:10 PM.


#37 PistolPete13

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 06:11 PM

 

I'm intrigued to see that synthetic analogues so frequently cause nausea. I wonder how these stats would compare to say, water extraction, alcohol extraction or plain fruitbody

 

I am intrigued to know if the tests were repeated would those same people get nausea every time? Or was it maybe something like what they had(or hadn't) eaten for example.



#38 PistolPete13

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 07:46 PM

Also I could just picture someone turning their lemon tek, into a blue science fair volcano(maybe dont add all the bicarb at once)........



#39 PistolPete13

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Posted 12 March 2019 - 08:06 PM

 

Very intriguing to hear about Terence McKenna's speculations about psilocybin and 5-HT3 receptors. If you happen to have a source for that I'd love to read about his perspective.

 

Sorry missed this, it was Dennis and it was 5-ht1d I am sorry i quoted the wrong receptor :blush:

 

Just for the record it was from this paper;
Attached File  mckenna1990.pdf   662.21KB   6 downloads



#40 LegoMyego

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Posted 14 March 2019 - 06:39 PM

Out of curiosity, if he purges is he still nauseous afterwards? I have experienced really bad nausea and vomiting with shrooms.  This method eliminated it for me however: https://mycotopia.ne...usea/?p=1400334

 

But, before when I got nauseous, I'd hold it in for an hour so I got the full effect and then went to the bathroom, finger down throat, purge, and that usually eliminated it.  Not the most pleasant experience but it worked for me.  

 

I have a feeling that there may be a psychological aspect in addition to physical.  Some calming music and mediation before the trip and while it is kicking in has helped me a lot as well. 






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