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I'M SOLD - Cutting IS better then Twist & Pull


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#1 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 12:24 PM

I've been a twist and puller until this last batch of tubs. There is a 100% benefit of cutting every single fruit vs twisting/pulling. I'm noticing a lot more Mycelium mounds at the base of shrooms and as a result many more uniform clusters, even off a MS syringe.

I was always worried about stumps and myc mounds rotting. But they did 100% better. In most of the Mycelium grow mounds other pins actually form into nice shrooms and this happened multiple times.

My 2nd flush has always been great but now I'm noticing much more uniformity.

I don't care what anyone says I'm a cutter for life now lol.
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#2 PJammer24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 12:38 PM

I think you should complete your experiment with a few more controls... Namely not working with isolated genetics opposed to from multi-spore... 



#3 Deleena24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:08 PM

I'd love to see exactly how much of a stump you left. I agree theres nothing wrong with cutting them as long as you get the whole thing. Anytime I've left any type of stump it turns to blue mush and pins definitely dont form there.

If I get it all there no problems. I usually like to get about 1/8th of an inch of sub along with the clusters, just to be sure. The freshly exposed sub always pins well.

I also find the ease with which the fruits can be twisted and pulled easily differed between strains and growing conditions.

For example, my Chitwan were a joy to pick bc they pulled off the sub so easily, with nothing attached. My PF Classics, on the other hand, seemed like it had roots and I either had to tear up to sub pretty good, or cut the entire surface off with a knife. My avatar on Slack shows a pic of this, I'm holding a cluster I cut that has about 50 full sized fruits. Like a bouquet of flowers.
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#4 roc

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:09 PM

How long have you done this?

 

I like to see at least 4 flushes on horse shit and would be concerned about inviting contamination.

 

Interesting observation.


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#5 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:10 PM

Yeah it was only 6x 90qt tubs and by no means scientific. But so far no contams. The flushes are kinda melding into each other I'm just cutting as the veil pops. What I am noticing is that the fewer shrooms on the cake the larger they are across the new ones are growing across the board. And that many more shrooms are growing around the cut ones vs the twist and pull method.

I was an avid twist and puller for all my tubs up till these tubs then I read a few posts from Roger Rabbit next door talking about legal commercial mushroom farmers selling their mushrooms at $2 a pound. He was like those companies in PA grow hundreds of thousands of pounds are cutting vs pulling. Then he was like think about it do you not think these big multi-million companies did there research over the decades they've been open. They are trying to squeeze as much profit out of there harvests because their price point is low.

I was like holy shit that makes sense I'm going to try that and by fuck sake its been working in my little 6x tub 2 strain trial. No divits opening up my sub to contams and so far no dead areas.

I just started getting into isolates and agar the other night so I'll keep this going until I realize it's a mistake or issues arise.

@roc - In my situation I very rarely go past the second or third flush. The tub space is to valuable to me.

This was in one of his post about people debating the topic. This guy can be a head strong dick sometimes but he closed the post as soon as he read it and left this comment lol
_____________________________________________

""I'm sick to tears of rank noobs pretending to know shit from shinola.

Commercial farms don't rip out large chunks of substrate(which DOES invite molds) to harvest mushrooms, and then cut them a second time to remove the debris. If they did, they'd never make a dime selling their product at less than $2/pound wholesale.

Cut mushrooms off at the base, and if anyone tells you the leftover stump is going to rot in the two to three weeks the substrate has left to live anyway, just know they're an idiot with no experience whatever.
RR""

Edited by MysticalMyco, 07 March 2019 - 01:21 PM.


#6 PJammer24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:21 PM

Yeah it was only 6x 90qt tubs and by no means scientific. But so far no contams. The flushes are kinda melding into each other I'm just cutting as the veil pops. What I am noticing is that the fewer shrooms on the cake the larger they are across the new ones are growing across the board. And that many more shrooms are growing around the cut ones vs the twist and pull method.

I was an avid twist and puller for all my tubs up till these tubs then I read a few posts from Roger Rabbit next door talking about legal commercial mushroom farmers selling their mushrooms at $2 a pound. He was like those companies in PA grow hundreds of thousands of pounds are cutting vs pulling. Then he was like think about it do you not think these big multi-million companies did there research over the decades they've been open. They are trying to squeeze as much profit out of there harvests because their price point is low.

I was like holy shit that makes sense I'm going to try that and by fuck sake its been working in my little 6x tub 2 strain trial. No divits opening up my sub to contams and so far no dead areas.

I just started getting into isolates and agar the other night so I'll keep this going until I realize it's a mistake or issues arise.

@roc - In my situation I very rarely go past the second or third flush. The tub space is to valuable to me.

 

"Those companies in PA" are not running three and 4 flushes... They are not typically doing dunks either... They are harvesting what they can in 1 flush, maybe two and ditching the spent subs...

 

If "those companies in PA" are the ones I am thinking of... They are mushroom mines... Growing mushrooms in abandoned coal mines with ventilation is not akin to growing in your basement... They are basically growing outdoors which significant limits contamination risks...

 

*Edit: But yes, they do cut when harvesting which is mostly about aesthetics/ bag appeal and keeping substrate out of edible mushrooms that will be sitting in store displays... They are intended as edibles, who wants substrate stuck to the bottom of Agaricus mushroom they are about to saute and eat with a steak....??  I respect RR but I don't think those specific comments take into consideration all factors and intent... 


Edited by PJammer24, 07 March 2019 - 01:25 PM.

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#7 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:25 PM

Edited - =)

Edited by MysticalMyco, 07 March 2019 - 03:21 PM.


#8 PJammer24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:31 PM

Yeah I guess if you wanted to go past three flushes it may be shit. I don't know.

For someone like me who is only rotating through 8-14 90qt monotubs. I need the space once they get that far for fresh grows.

 

Those mushroom mines are getting 2 flushes without a dunk... They harvest, then harvest again before tossing the tray with nothing added in between flushes.



#9 Deleena24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:33 PM

Cut mushrooms off at the base, and if anyone tells you the leftover stump is going to rot in the two to three weeks the substrate has left to live anyway, just know they're an idiot with no experience whatever.
RR"" 

I'm sorry, but if you leave stumps, they turn to blue/black mush within a couple days after a dunk. I've seen it countless times. Maybe he doesnt consider that rot, but however you cut it, the blue/black goo on your sub doesnt help things along.

I always used to wonder why people would talk smack about RR. I think I have an inkling as to why, now.

#10 roc

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:34 PM

:biggrin: RR grew up here before he moved on.

Smart guy but as you point out he's kind of a "my way or the highway" kind of guy.

 

Don't get me wrong I have respect for RR and he has been a big contributor to the community.

 

With spring finally showing up here I'll probably start taking my subs after 2 flushes and move them out under my deck in my old shit hole. Man do I see some solid meaty shrooms and mother nature makes the green disappear in a few days.


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#11 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:35 PM

Yeah I just figured a commercial mushroom farmer like RR would know what he is talking about. He is a wealth of knowledge but can be headstrong. His grow rooms are INSANE.

Edited by MysticalMyco, 07 March 2019 - 01:38 PM.

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#12 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:37 PM

@Roc, I know my first few grows were in the summer months and holy shit they were some of the largest ones I have ever grew outdoors. Next winter I will have multiple Martha tents set up. My shrooms hate this dry heat this time of year

Edited by MysticalMyco, 07 March 2019 - 01:39 PM.

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#13 PJammer24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:40 PM

Yeah I just figured a commercial mushroom farmers would know what he is talking about. He is a wealth of knowledge but can be headstrong

 

He does know what he is talking about... he knows more than I do, there is no doubt about that... What he says is true about the commercial mushroom farmers cutting their fruits, they are just in a position to incorporate different methods into their grows while working in professional setups... It is a different situation that the average internet forum grower. Commercial operations have an endless supply of spawn and time... It is easy for them to switch out trays prior to having issues... For the average joe around here, maximizing your time and effort is important which is why people attempt to get the additional flushes.

 

There are members on here who do things just like the commercial operations. They have the time to reload and toss their subs after 2 flushes without a dunk... That isn't as easily done for many.


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#14 MysticalMyco

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 01:52 PM

=}

Edited by MysticalMyco, 07 March 2019 - 03:17 PM.


#15 Deleena24

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 02:01 PM

Make no mistake, RR is one of those guys I looked up to, and respect his opinion, most of the time. When he speaks in absolutes and calls homegrowers stupid or says they have no experience it reminds me he's just a person and perspective must be taken into account with some things he says.

But like you said he's the my way or the highway type. Honestly I hear the same about a bunch of our mushroom celebs, Massive egos. LOL But like you said they have the juice to back in up, like his sweet lab and his results. No doubt hes contributed more than most to the OMC.
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#16 onediadem

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 03:40 PM

You have to keep in mind he was a home grower himself. What works for him may not necessarily work for other people. No matter how big his set has grown. He started out like every other grower. I remember. I also remember when he started looking down on others.


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#17 jkdeth

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 04:40 PM

I don't cut them. I might in the future for aesthetics. I've never seen any reason to believe one method is superior to another. I've had my share of contaminates, but never any I could attribute to either left over material or broken up substrate.

Honestly, comparing commercial button farming to homegrown ms cubensis is non science all around.

Btw. Most of those PA mushroom farmers are growing them in mushroom houses. There is a huge operation in an old limestone mine.

#18 Billcoz

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Posted 07 March 2019 - 05:47 PM

I'm probably the least experienced guy on this thread so far, I'd say I do get rotting when I leave stumps, or what I'd consider rotting. I always miss some stumpage when picking matures from around a bunch of less developed pins while trying not to fuck up the growing pins, and it gets slimy and gross as Deleena described, pins don't seem to grow from there. 

 

I am willing to try to only cut from some tubs just to see how much it effects my later flushes, I don't like the beat up looking subs, but I don't like the slime either. I'll post here to say whether I will be a cutter or continue twisting.

 

I am not as interested in getting 4 flushes than I am in starting new batches as I am trying different sub thickness, ratios, casing vs naked, and getting new isolations fruiting to test them. I am happy to get 2-3 good flushes and have a quick turn over for space and tubs to start new batches. 


Edited by Billcoz, 07 March 2019 - 05:47 PM.


#19 PJammer24

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:02 AM

I don't cut them. I might in the future for aesthetics. I've never seen any reason to believe one method is superior to another. I've had my share of contaminates, but never any I could attribute to either left over material or broken up substrate.

Honestly, comparing commercial button farming to homegrown ms cubensis is non science all around.

Btw. Most of those PA mushroom farmers are growing them in mushroom houses. There is a huge operation in an old limestone mine.

 

Do you mean "aren't" growing them in mushroom houses? Im pretty familiar with the commercial operations and there are a lot that are operating out of abandoned mines, coal, limestone, or otherwise... The Agaricus mushrooms you are buying at the store are most likely not being produced in a house... There may be a trend toward above ground facilities but traditionally they take advantage of the stable climate provided by these abandoned mines... I have spent time in a facility that had sold commercially but is now concentrating on genetics and spore production... Their mushrooms are donated to a local food bank. The facility is in an abandoned coal mine but they are actually now mining limestone at the same facility on a small scale.



#20 jkdeth

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Posted 08 March 2019 - 11:12 AM

There are are lots of houses. I used to work all of eastern pa. Literally dozens of mushroom houses. The first commercial mushroom farm in PA was in a house. A lot more mushroom houses than underground facilities.




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