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Newbie needs help with first Cacti trip


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#1 Banjhakri

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 08:31 AM

Hi all.  I'm looking for some help and guidance from you knowledgeable people. Quick background, I had some fun with psychedelics >10 years ago but haven't any since.  Two of my friends and I are planning a cacti experience.  We are coming in from different parts of the country to make this happen, so we only have one shot at this and need to get it right and I need help to insure the weekend isn't a bust. The plan is to meet Thursday night and travel to our spot Friday morning where we will begin to brew our tea.  Saturday we will wake up bright and early and drink it around 8AM.  The plan is to redose around noon and (hopefully) be back to baseline by Sunday morning to travel home and resume our mundane lives.  

Which cacti should I choose?  I am reading a lot of different reports on Trichocereus bridgesii vs pachanoi.  I just don't know which direction to go here.  Also, for 3 bigger guys (6'+, 200 lbs+) what is a good dose? I know the standard is 12 inches, but we can't risk that not being enough.  I've read that with bridgesii you should go with 24"? We want to get the full experience here.  Even though this is our first time with mescaline, we all handled psylocibin and LSD just fine in our hay day.  I would rather have more than what is needed rather than not enough.  This is our only chance at this for a long time and we need to get it right.  It will be a total heart break to not get enough out of this experience.  We will be doing a tea via boiling method. 

Also, looking at vendors online i see base cuttings and tip cuttings, I'm assuming the tip is the way to go with either species?

Thank you all so much for the help.  


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#2 Banjhakri

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 08:46 AM

i might as well add Trichocereus peruvianus to the list of not knowing which to choose



#3 pharmer

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 09:18 AM

better to think in terms of weight than inches

 

500 miligrams of pure refined mesc is considered One Dose for men of average size and weight. You may need to add some cactus if somebody weighs 250.

 

Standard, non-special, unspectacular cactus generally yield 1 percent by weight of dried cactus. But this can vary by as much as 1 percent to 3 percent. So do your buying and dosing calculations accordingly.

 

Wet cactus is normally assumed to be 100 times heavier than dried cactus "chips" or ground powder

 

So, if you're considering sourcing wet columns and boiling them you'll need to weigh them once they're in your hands and do the math from there.

 

I'd also recommend buying more than you think you'll need just in case what you've bought is weaker than average. You can always grow, dry, or freeze what you don't boil. And if you do boil all you buy it stores just fine in the freezer until next time - which you'll be eager to get to :)

 

I'd recommend the Bridgesii. IME it's more colorful, warmer, more empathetic, and generally a better and more comfortable ride than Pachanoi. I've not done Peruvianus so will withhold comment on it.

 

One last recommendation - leave as much time as you can arrange before getting in your cars and driving after you've come down from the trip. You'll be tired and "fried". Getting some rest before driving again is a very good idea. If you dosed only once you could expect the trip to last 12 hours. Mesc is like that. I like your idea of dosing, waiting, and redosing if more is needed - that's prudence and I recommend prudence. But if you've added a second dose you're going to extend the trip  by that amount of time - which sounds like it's going to matter given your scheduled timeline.

 

Also, tips or midcuts? just doesn't matter


Edited by pharmer, 28 March 2019 - 09:36 AM.

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#4 Banjhakri

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 09:56 AM

better to think in terms of weight than inches

 

500 miligrams of pure refined mesc is considered One Dose for men of average size and weight. You may need to add some cactus if somebody weighs 250.

 

Standard, non-special, unspectacular cactus generally yield 1 percent by weight of dried cactus. But this can vary by as much as 1 percent to 3 percent. So do your buying and dosing calculations accordingly.

 

Wet cactus is normally assumed to be 100 times heavier than dried cactus "chips" or ground powder

 

So, if you're considering sourcing wet columns and boiling them you'll need to weigh them once they're in your hands and do the math from there.

 

I'd also recommend buying more than you think you'll need just in case what you've bought is weaker than average. You can always grow, dry, or freeze what you don't boil. And if you do boil all you buy it stores just fine in the freezer until next time - which you'll be eager to get to :)

 

I'd recommend the Bridgesii. IME it's more colorful, warmer, more empathetic, and generally a better and more comfortable ride than Pachanoi. I've not done Peruvianus so will withhold comment on it.

 

One last recommendation - leave as much time as you can arrange before getting in your cars and driving after you've come down from the trip. You'll be tired and "fried". Getting some rest before driving again is a very good idea. If you dosed only once you could expect the trip to last 12 hours. Mesc is like that. I like your idea of dosing, waiting, and redosing if more is needed - that's prudence and I recommend prudence. But if you've added a second dose you're going to extend the trip  by that amount of time - which sounds like it's going to matter given your scheduled timeline.

 

Also, tips or midcuts? just doesn't matter

Thank you for the very thorough response, it has certainly helped.

One thing you touched on was leaving enough time to drive.  if we dosed at 8am and redosed at 12pm do you think 20 ish hours is long enough to attempt to drive afterwards?  Also, is there any type of hangover with mesc?



#5 pharmer

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 10:21 AM

not a hangover like alcohol will give you. more of a burnout. think of mesc much like amphetamine. fun while you're up but very tired when you get down.

 

for a couple days afterward, once you've rested, you'll have a pleasant glow and different outlook on everyday life.

 

I guess how well you bounce out of the come-down will depend on how rested you were going into the trip and how your personal body chemistry recovers from the significant speediness of the trip. I'd also guess age matters. A twenty something will recover quicker than a geriatric etc....   I'm being vague because there are many variables in play - which is why the word "prudence" keeps coming up    :)

---------------------------------------

 

just re-read the OP

 

here's how the timing would work out for me

 

dose at 8 a.m.   add twelve hours for most of the duration of the trip plus or minus depending on the person  -> midnight come down -> 5-7 hours of sleep by 8 a.m. sunday morning. Maybe.....

 

dose again at noon.  figure 3 hours for that dose of tea to get rolling full speed -> 3 a.m. comedown begins  ->  2 hours sleep by 8 a.m. Sunday morning.  Maybe.........


Edited by pharmer, 28 March 2019 - 10:42 AM.

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#6 Coopdog

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 01:00 PM

Pharmer answered your questions most thoroughly, and I don't have much to add, other than a different perspective. The different types of Trichocerious are usually in this order of potency, Pachanoi is usually about 1%, Peruvianus is 2-3% and Bridgessii can be almost as potent as Peyote at 3+%. I have found all of these to be basically all over the place though, and I have one Pachanoi cutting that absolutely rocked my world with a two foot fat cutting and gave me a 30 hour trip that I sure as hell did not expect from what was supposed to be a "average" dose. 

 

I have had cactus trips several times that still had me seeing waves and visuals as long as 16-17 hours later, but I always seem to cut more than I think I will need. I have also had some that gave me very little bang for the buck, so there are no guarantees with cacti for sure. That being said I agree with Pharmer that you should give as much consideration to time before driving as possible and maybe even consider taking an extra day off to recover first. I promise you will be glad you did and appreciate the processing time as you will probably have a lot to talk about after :)

 

The different persective I have is also this, I did not enjoy the heavier Bridgessii trip nearly as much as I have enjoyed several Pachanoi trips. Bridgessii did not seem as gentle or loving as the Pachanoi I have done, but this is all perspective man. We all react differently to these things. If you are dosing by the foot, the Bridgessii is the one you only want one foot of. If you are doing pachanoi I suggest three feet for each one. That is a lot of boiling time but will be worth the effort. 

 

I also suggest Irish Lions tea tek, even though it is not as clean as some of the lengthier preps, you definitely get most of the good stuff out of it. Make sure you do at least three smash and boil and strain to get all of the actives. This takes time, and I think you are cutting it mighty close on that and depending on getting a shorter duration trip than the world shaker you seem to be desiring. Sometimes Cactus can be a long drawn out tripping experience, so plan accordingly. Much love and respect for going after it like this! I hope it all goes fucking awesome for you guys!


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#7 Banjhakri

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 02:04 PM

Man you guys are awesome.  Much respect and very much appreciate helping me out. 

One last question for now.  Growing this at home isn't an option as i need to be incognito with this whole thing.  We are doing this on July 13th.  How early is too early to get cuttings and keep them boxed up until i leave?  I'm assuming the closer to the trip the better, but would a month out be ok?  Last thing i want to do is have everything ready to go and find out ive gotten moldy/rotten cacti when i go to leave, but i also want to get them early enough that if i need time to find more or different ones i am able to.


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#8 pharmer

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Posted 28 March 2019 - 03:38 PM

get them when you can get them

 

take them out of the shipping box and expose them to some moving air and a darkish location. as long as the cuts are not weeping fluids they are fine. 

 

if when you get them the cut end feels at all damp, not like parchment, put the column in front of a fan for a day or two. that will seal the ends and they'll stay fresh enough to plant for another 18 months if kept in a cool, dark, dry environment.

 

have a blast!


Edited by pharmer, 28 March 2019 - 03:38 PM.

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#9 Skywatcher

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Posted 02 April 2019 - 09:12 PM

Hello Banjhakri ! 

You have already gotten some of the best information to answer your questions, from two of our most knowledgeable members.

I only have one thing to add as far as the duration timing, and how long you should plan for, before you need to drive.

 

Its my experience that the higher the dose you consume, the longer it lasts. I have had several journeys that went 18 hours, and I also experience a few small resurges once I am grounded again for a day or so. You really do need to sleep afterward, to recoup some of your ability to be alert for activities like driving.

I am also going to add that if you smoke cannabis at the end of the cactus experience, it will kick you back up and intensify the effects all over again. I have found this to be true to some extent even into the next day, after I have slept, although not as intensely as the actual first ride. Because of that I would advise against having a breakfast toke, if you are going to drive home.

 

Most of my experiences have been with San Pedro and Peyote. I have yet to consume any of my Bridgesii or Peruvians. I also have found as I get older, it takes less to be awed......

 

Enjoy the experience!

Brew extra, even if you don't need it. Cactus is IMO a much smoother ride than mushrooms, and it has a euphoric effect as well, which makes you feel more enjoyment. I always feel like I am in the safe company of a benevolent teacher.


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#10 Coopdog

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 02:07 AM

"Benevolent Teacher"... Man that is a good description. I always feel like there is a huge spirit about, like elephant sized, that is taking in everything I do and watching me throughout. Walls have no meaning and are not a border when I am on mescaline. It has been kind of intimidating to me, not because it is scary, but because it is THERE, and it truly humbles me. Carlos Castaneda describes the spirit of the plants well, but I have a hard time putting them into anything relatable to the human experience. My impression is of an old and wise earth spirit, that is amused with my antics but doesn't want me to know that and get too damn comfortable! The beauty of the whole experience is the overwhelming part though, and the spirit of the cacti is just always there. 


Edited by Coopdog, 03 April 2019 - 02:08 AM.

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#11 Banjhakri

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:17 AM

Thank you for the replies!  You have all helped greatly.  I am getting 3 stalks of 12" bridgesii.  We are looking to get the full experience out of this, and quite candidly hope that its life changing, at least in the short term.  But I do not want to underestimate this drug and take too much and be completely out of my mind, however i absolutely want to have the full experience.  I guess this is the toughest thing ive taken as far as getting the correct dosage because the mesc content can vary so much in cacti.  We have changed our plans slightly, and are going to wake up at 6 am and each take the equivalent of 12 inches.  within 2 hours (i think) we should know if we need to split the third 12" and act accordingly, therefor our last dose should be at 8am at the latest.  We need to hit the road the following day at 10 AM so hopefully ~26-28 hours will have us back at baseline.  Thanks for the heads up on cannabis.  I am a daily smoker, but will keep conscious (I hope!) of smoking later in the day and lay off the following day at least until i get my friend to the airport and get home.

I have a few more questions for you all.

I've been reading a bunch online and saw a tek that included a few ml's of nutmeg oil in their tea. Has anyone tried this?  would it be silly to do this for a first timer?

I also read about freezing the tea into small ice cubes makes it easier to down it, is this a bad idea?

Lastly i read that cutting the cacti up and then freezing it before blending it will help extract more mesc.  Any thoughts on that?  Thanks again!



#12 pharmer

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:45 AM

Never heard the nutmeg oil idea.

 

This is just one mans' opinion so weigh it accordingly.

 

Assuming there IS an effect from the oil do you want that as you're appraising the desirability of doing cactus again? If your pharmacokenitics disfavor nutmeg and mesc cocktails do you want that experience? and the resultant confusion of which component caused a bad experience? If it were me on my first cactus trip I'd keep it simple and do just the cactus.

 

The ice cubes sound like a winner. Look on the jungle auctions site and see if Miracle Berry is still around. It's a nifty little cheat nature provides. You chew up a Miracle Berry gummy just before downing your ice cubes or tea. The berry tricks your brain into believing that anything that's bitter or unpleasant is actually sweet. It works three or four times so if you get all your tea or ice cubes down in four gulps you end-run most of the foul taste. Pretty cool stuff.

 

Freezing and thawing cactus before boiling is a tried and true technique. It works better if you cycle it several times through the freeze/thaw. The freezing busts up the cell wall holding the actives making it a more thorough and efficient boiling process. Make sure you retain all liquids from the freeze/thaw cycling. With three cycles and three boils of 90 minutes per boil I'd bet you'll get all the goods out of the cactus.  Bridgesii need more boiling than Pachanoi in my experience so the freeze/thaw cycling really helps with Bridges'

 

One, or two confederates on your trip? If you and two others I'd recommend another column for that margin of safety. If you're big boys more than one foot each would not be a bad thing. If this trip is a rarity and you're not likely to get around to it again for a long while I'd err on the side of more than less. Cactus is a forgiving entity and short of quadruple dosing or some whacky freak accident of dosing you'll not be punished by 20% more than the "standard" dose. You'll just be "rewarded" more   :)

 

You owe us a trip report when the day comes :)


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#13 Banjhakri

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 12:20 PM

Good stuff.  Totally agree on the nutmeg oil and the Miracle Berry sounds like a great idea.  I will definitely do the freeze thaw cycles a few times.

I have one friend joining me for certain.  Another said he's in and excited, but can be flaky so I'm not counting on him, but I suppose i should prepare for him to be there just in case.  With that being said I will go for 4 cuttings.  I appreciate the last paragraph and that helps put things into perspective.  All 3 of us are 6'1-6'3, 200-250 lbs.  I think we will take 3 cuttings if its just the two of us and 4 if its three of us and down it all at once first thing in the morning and hang on for the ride.  You are also correct in that this is not something we will soon be able to repeat if ever.  All 3 of us have families and kids and getting away is nearly impossible.  Hopefully this isn't a one and done, but i need to go into it realizing that is very possible.

 

I'm looking forward to reporting on this.  I'm sure it will be successful, however I'm not so sure it would have been as good without your help.  

 

I can't thank you enough.  Me coming here asking questions as a new user, I could have easily been ignored however you went above and beyond to help me make this trip a weekend to remember.  Much respect


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#14 pharmer

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 08:22 PM

OK, if you insist, you owe me  :)

 

this is how it's been done at Mycotopia for as long as I can remember.

 

we're family and co-scientists

 

you appear to be made of our kind of stuff

 

if nobody has said Welcome! yet, let me be the first


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#15 Banjhakri

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 02:28 PM

One more question for now. I’ve been reading a lot about (I’m full fledged obsessing about this now) that making a tea out of the entire cacti vs the green flesh. Some reporting that the mesc is only contained in the green flesh and that skinning it and cutting off the flesh is the best way to make the tea and eliminate nausea. Other reports I’m reading say that there are alkaloids within the entire cacti and it’s best to boil everything and not to flesh it out. Any thoughts on this?

#16 Banjhakri

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 02:31 PM

This is all coming together now.  I have received aprox 2400 grams of fresh bridgesii.  Will dividing this by 3 (800 grams each) be an ok dose for a first timer?  Not really trying to dip my toes in because I don't have time for that.  I also don't want to take too much that i'm not at baseline within 30 hours.  



#17 Thirdeyeplants

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 07:39 AM

Good luck, looking forward to your report...

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