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#1 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 02:28 PM

Well my spore syringe froze, I put them to rye anyway. It has been 13 days. I am using 3lb spawn bags I will never use ever again. They look as dry as they come. No signs of growth as the title states. Soon to start agar and 9er tek because forget this waste of money. Anyway, would you think it's worth letting these bags sit, and see what they do? Should i just throw them out before I grow mold in my closet?? Would it be a good idea to re sterilize/hydrate this grain properly and use it in jars? I would hate to throw it away, as i paid a stupid price for it. I know they say signs of growth take longer to appear with bags, because they colonize from inside out. However, I waited 13 days to peek so not to disappoint myself, and no growth on the outside. Ive had them show outside growth on day 5, so i broke em up. Nothing inside either. Just rock hard grain.

Edited by Dimitri2teachme, 06 April 2019 - 02:33 PM.


#2 Billcoz

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 03:44 PM

That is a lot of grain to colonize, I'd keep em for a week or so more, unless they start to get green or stinky, there might even be growth you can't see inside, so I wouldn't toss em yet, unless they are in the way or you need the space, but definitely start a new grow.

 

Agar is more advanced, if you want some guaranteed shrooms you should stick to PF tek by the book, the shrooms are just as potent and it's almost fool proof, but if you want to jump ahead to agar I'd recommend a "no pour" method, here's a write up I made(link). "No-pour" is better, especially for beginners as the "pouring" step is done before sterilization, making it so that the jars/plates don't have to ever be opened and the agar never exposed to air while the pouring. If you use 1/4 or 1/2 pint jars with SHIP/filter lids you don't even have to open it to inoculate if your using a spore syringe, though to scrape or swab from a print, or transfer myc tissue you do have to open it obviously.

 

Most people will tell you to get some pf, then bulk grows going, then try agar, as it takes a little more effort as far as sterile procedure, and you still have to start from spores(unless you already have LC or some live agar culture), I'd say go for it, it really isn't that difficult, but there is something to be said about growing some out and learning the process, you will have to learn iteventually. Good luck


Edited by Billcoz, 06 April 2019 - 03:46 PM.


#3 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 04:13 PM

I have some pp5 rubbermaid take alongs, with self healing ports and GE in the lids made up already. I plan on using these, doing no pour, and only opening if the culture needs a clean up or (if all goes well) I need to isolate. Then doing myc syringes from there, also using the ports and a glove box. That is as sterile as I can get with what I have at my disposal. I have heard of some doing agar in open air like crazy people (not on topia).... Sounds like a bad idea.

I broke them up thouroughly and no growth inside at all. Im going to let these bags sit in the closet. I'm not confident in them but I will wait. If nothing pops up within 10 days ill be ready to give up on these especially if i have agar going. Mainly because I want to save the grain. If I spent all this money on the bags id like to make them worth it.

Edited by Dimitri2teachme, 06 April 2019 - 04:16 PM.

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#4 jkdeth

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 04:42 PM

Give them 30 days from inoculation. I think these are likely toast from your description though.
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#5 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 06:11 PM

Give them 30 days from inoculation. I think these are likely toast from your description though.


Devastating, never even having a contam before, then getting some f'd up bags. I know it wasnt the spores. The bags are so dry its obvious and depressing. The spores did freeze, but ill test their viability w agar.

#6 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 08:53 PM

I plan on using this thread to show how I re hydrate/sterilize this rye, noobishly, to show other noobs what to do when their spawn bags arrive dry and they see no growth. To every noob like me out there who may be lurking, i say to you, buy a tiny jiggle top pc at least. Dont let the money vultures eat your wallet.

#7 coorsmikey

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 09:46 PM

Maybe consider re-inoculation of said grain with a known viable inoculant? Perhaps a syringe that hasn't froze and worked on other projects. No slime or contamination 3 weeks in will give you a better set of odds with taking that chance than what you plan to experiment with. At least one of the bags just for the sake of learning.

 

Aaaaannnd Damn if anyone wants to pay a lil less than stupid prices for bags of spawn or substrate I would gladly put the same shit I use in a flat rate box and ship. PM me lol. I will personally test every batch with my own grows.

 

But Demetri, If you happen to successfully re-hydrate and sterilize the grain and this thread takes off, Do consider using Spent brewers grain available from breweries and distilleries. There is a huge opportunity there for profit and commerce. 


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#8 jkdeth

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Posted 06 April 2019 - 09:47 PM

Better to courteously send a strongly worded yet kind email to the vendor.

No point in trying to redo that.
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#9 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 06:48 AM

Well, I think I will be starting agar cultures Thurs/Fri when my MEA arrives. I will let the bags sit until the cultures are happy and clean. Now, for the sake of experimentation, I will only attempt to re hydrate one bag. The other bag will get a myc syringe. Simply for documentation and experimentation purposes. I know the bag I innoculate might take off just fine and then the re hydration would be pointless for the other. I dont care to waste time, i dont care to fail, especially if potentially succeeding could help other noobies like myself. And i just got a pc so i can start up a new grow. I know pf tek is suggested but.... Ive never read it... I know smite me now. Ive read it 2-3 times, but the 9er tek, I can almost recite word for word. I just dont like the thought of using verm. What can I say. I figure having success on rye in vitro in the past, I will do okay.

#10 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 07:13 AM

Better to courteously send a strongly worded yet kind email to the vendor.

No point in trying to redo that.

And you know jk I have been thinking about sending them an email, and still re trying the bags anyway. Im guessing they wont want them back lol. I risked a lot breaking them up, but almost two whole weeks, no signs of germination, inside or out.... That's tom foolery. And i would feel awful throwing away 6lbs of perfectly non contamed grain (if thats still the case). So a shot in the dark is worth taking when nobody stands to get hurt. If it's the spores the mighty agar gods will tell me.

(Just wanted to edit rather than post again. I am now setting up my glove box to innoculate these bags again while I let them sit)

Edited by Dimitri2teachme, 07 April 2019 - 08:38 AM.


#11 Billcoz

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 12:34 PM

So your planning to use whole grain brown rice for in-vitro jars or rye? The 9er tek I read said to use WGBR. I mean, I still would recommend the OG PF tek, but I am interested to see if you can pull of in-vitro grains with no verm casing, good luck!


Edited by Billcoz, 07 April 2019 - 12:37 PM.


#12 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 07 April 2019 - 01:16 PM

So your planning to use whole grain brown rice for in-vitro jars or rye? The 9er tek I read said to use WGBR. I mean, I still would recommend the OG PF tek, but I am interested to see if you can pull of in-vitro grains with no verm casing, good luck!


I plan on doing whole rice to monotub. Then possibly rye as well. I have fruited rye in vitro cased in compost inside a spawn bag. Once when I was much younger, parents found the pins and woke me up asking if it was LSD and I started pulling my hair out. Again when I was older and had my own place to sleep. That one was a success. This time I want to try my hand at bulk and sterilization on my own. I feel in vitro being a success in the past, as long as I get some colonized jars, bulk will be a hoot.
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#13 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 09:24 AM

Hey, i read the coffe can post! A while back while I was lurking. I'm actually going to use a pretzel bucket too haha and a 25qt sterilite. Plan on a 1:1 ratio for spawn to sub just because i want it to recover quickly to beat contam. Going to use coco coir, alone. I will sterilize the coir for one tub, and pasturize the other. For research!

My jars, i wanted to post about. They arent jars. I figure some will laugh, or smite me, and ive never seen any real success had with them. By that i mean I havent seen them used. I have seen sterilized grain sold in them though.. so i figured why not. They hold a pint and a half. I can always still get jars, this is just what I had around. Also these are not permanent.


Btw coz that was an awesome write up

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Edited by Dimitri2teachme, 08 April 2019 - 09:35 AM.


#14 raymycoto

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 10:25 AM

My $0.02

 

I've tried many times but no or marginal 'luck' with resterilizing grain jars or bags. This is the reasoning.

  • Resterilizing causes additional carmelization or chemical changes in the grain. This is a relatively bad thing. I doubted this at first but I've done side by side identical jars and inoculations on resterilized jars that were just old and they grew but more slowly by about a week.
  • If your myc is not growing then possibly and probably something else is, even if it's occult, like bacterial. While resterilizing will kill everything, I believe that there are metabolites or toxins that are left behind that will blunt the growth of the myc. Similarly, I have done resterilization of bacterial ridden jars and bags then noc'd with excellent LC and had absolutely no growth for weeks until it contaminated again. Don't know how else to explain it but that's my explanation.

Sorry, long winded discussion to say - don't waste your time and your inoculant on reprocessed grain. Grain is ultra cheap if you buy it in bulk from tractor supply, for example. You might be able to reuse your bags, however. I reuse my mushroom bags as long as they are intact  even though they start looking a bit beat up.

 

You might assay the grain hydration in your bag and send that info to the vendor. If it shows that it is, say, 35% for ex, even after inoculation then that is clearly bad on the part of the vendor.

 

How to do - weigh a portion of the grain of around 20-50 grams. Place it on a tray or foil in the oven at 200F for a few hours and use convection if you have it. You might be able to use a dehydrator on high if you have it. Have not tried that way. Then re-weigh the grain when it is totally dry. If you have any doubts about dryness, weigh it, then dry some more, then re-weigh and note changes - or not.

 

Water wt = wet wt - dry wt - Call it W

Grain wt = dry grain wt - Call this G

Percent hydration (in mycology terms, not baking or some other ways of expressing hydration) = W / (W+G) x 100

 

A good grain jar would be in the mid to low 50s. A grain bag of 2 qt should be a bit lower, perhaps low 40s to high 40s.

 

Stamets has a discussion of the various size containers and optimal hydration. I believe it has to do with the fact that smaller quantities will dry out faster than the larger ones. I can look it up again sometime.

 

So, do this and report to us what you found. Maybe save the bags, get some dry grain, reprocess in a PC.

 

I have worked repeatedly to determine ways to do a reliable single container (bag or jar) tech and I'm now liking that tech more than precooking grain. I can give you my current 'best practice' for that tech. It's evolving but I've been decreasing the water and now I find I am getting better results with lower hydration in my jars, in the high 40's.  There are many here who have been doing this 10 longer than I have, however.



#15 raymycoto

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 10:39 AM

Those plastic 1.5 pint tubs will work but there may be trouble with long term storage, unlike grain jars which seal and maintain a vacuum and can last more or less indefinitely. Those tubs won't be vacuum sealed.

 

I would do this if you use them. Let them cool in the PC with the PC top closed and put some sort of filter or cloth soaked with alcohol over the PC vent so it will only suck clean air. Else unfiltered air gets into the PC then into the plastic tub. Remove the tubs, sealing the lids quickly and tightly. Use promptly or at least refrigerate if not used in a day or so. They could certainly work with some precautions. The tubs I've seen like that are all type 5, PP, plastic.



#16 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 11:40 AM

Those plastic 1.5 pint tubs will work but there may be trouble with long term storage, unlike grain jars which seal and maintain a vacuum and can last more or less indefinitely. Those tubs won't be vacuum sealed.

I would do this if you use them. Let them cool in the PC with the PC top closed and put some sort of filter or cloth soaked with alcohol over the PC vent so it will only suck clean air. Else unfiltered air gets into the PC then into the plastic tub. Remove the tubs, sealing the lids quickly and tightly. Use promptly or at least refrigerate if not used in a day or so. They could certainly work with some precautions. The tubs I've seen like that are all type 5, PP, plastic.



These are indeed pp5 plastic, made sure of that haha. I have heard as long as you put a vent in the lid of the tub with polyfil it wont crush or anything. That would solve the problem of dirty air entering the pc, as any air entering the tub will pass through polyfil. I could be wrong. I appreciate those tips on hydration. That was lovely. I will use that equation to test my bags, and I will also use the equation to test my grain before I innoculate.

#17 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 11:44 AM

Those plastic 1.5 pint tubs will work but there may be trouble with long term storage, unlike grain jars which seal and maintain a vacuum and can last more or less indefinitely. Those tubs won't be vacuum sealed.

I would do this if you use them. Let them cool in the PC with the PC top closed and put some sort of filter or cloth soaked with alcohol over the PC vent so it will only suck clean air. Else unfiltered air gets into the PC then into the plastic tub. Remove the tubs, sealing the lids quickly and tightly. Use promptly or at least refrigerate if not used in a day or so. They could certainly work with some precautions. The tubs I've seen like that are all type 5, PP, plastic.



These are indeed pp5 plastic, made sure of that haha. I have heard as long as you put a vent in the lid of the tub with polyfil it wont crush or anything. That would solve the problem of dirty air entering the pc, as any air entering the tub will pass through polyfil. Kindof like the no pour agar tek, but with grain. I could be wrong. I appreciate those tips on hydration. That was lovely. I will use that equation to test my bags, and I will also use the equation to test my grain before I innoculate.


#18 raymycoto

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 12:45 PM

Keep in mind that polyfill is mostly a gross filter, nowhere near sub micron. But that's a good tip. I have a bunch of those tubs and maybe I'll try them sometime. I wonder if you glued some Tyvek (teflon) filter over a hole in the top if that would provide enough flow for PC? I suspect not. That would be a good filter for air exchange for incubation but I bet it might still collapse with the more rapid gas exchange of sterilization.



#19 Dimitri2teachme

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 01:14 PM

Keep in mind that polyfill is mostly a gross filter, nowhere near sub micron. But that's a good tip. I have a bunch of those tubs and maybe I'll try them sometime. I wonder if you glued some Tyvek (teflon) filter over a hole in the top if that would provide enough flow for PC? I suspect not. That would be a good filter for air exchange for incubation but I bet it might still collapse with the more rapid gas exchange of sterilization.


Hmm.... Micro pore tape is used in all the other no pour teks... I just figured since polyfil was what they used on your typical quart jar, that was what i should use. I suppose I should substitute polyfil with micropore?

#20 raymycoto

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Posted 08 April 2019 - 01:23 PM

You are probably about the same either way. Keep in mind that micropore may lose permeability during sterilization. I noted that on some of my jars as they suffocated with old micropore I left on the lids. I had also sprayed the tops at one point with alcohol so that may also have gummed up the pores in the tape. So, my advice when using MP tape is always to apply new tape when out of the PC. It's doesn't take much tape.


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