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My first attempt with grain


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#1 picapau

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 08:09 AM

Hey

 

So, I think it will be beneficial for me to have a spot to ask some questions about this process. I'm sure there are places here where the questions I pose have been answered multiple times....I'm just not proving all the quick in finding the info. There is a lot of it here!

 

I opted for bags, as I have mentioned elsewhere. Convenient as they are, so far, I'm already looking forward to making some cakes and possibly playing around with bird seed....soon.

 

I inoculated 4 one lb bags  of rye with B+ cubes about 13 days ago. At about 7 days I had growth in each bag.....and from what I understand about rye, it goes slooooow.

 

My first question/concern is about humidity during incubation. So far I'm going  with the idea that it's not super important. There is visible moisture inside each bag. I have the bags in a cardboard flat on top on the water heater with a space heater in the same area keeping the temp in the mid to upper 70's. I am fanning the space a few times a day also.

 

I'm in the high desert and it's still pretty cold yet...so that creates more need for supplemental heat.

 

My concern is the effect of humidity at this stage of colonization. It's been steady at 30%. ....but I'm concerned about the hater I'm using and the air possibly getting too dry outside the bags.

 

This morning I put an ultra-sonic humidifier with distilled water in the space to bump up the humidity. Is this necessary?

 

Is there an ideal humidity for colonization?  or a low threshold?

 

 



#2 DaveyJonez

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 08:50 AM

I'm by no means an expert but IME I've found it important to really make sure the outside of the grains are dry after your soak and simmer.. Also with large amounts of grains in bags you may need to pressure cook for a longer duration to ensure sterilization.. These are both mistakes I had to learn the hard way

#3 RutgerHauer

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 08:56 AM

I'm not sure you are asking about grain preparation - since DaveyJones seems to think so - or the humidity of the environment you have you bag colonizing in. If the bag of grains is properly hydrated, sterilized and sealed, a dry environment should not be an issue.

Edited by RutgerHauer, 13 April 2019 - 08:57 AM.

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#4 picapau

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 08:59 AM

I'm not sure you are asking about grain preparation - since DaveyJones seems to think so - or the humidity of the environment you have you bag colonizing in. If the bag of grains is properly hydrated, sterilized and sealed, a dry environment should not be an issue.

yeah, this was my question. 

 

Sorry if it was not clear enough.

 

Thanks for the input~


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#5 DaveyJonez

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 09:01 AM

I'm not sure you are asking about grain preparation - since DaveyJones seems to think so - or the humidity of the environment you have you bag colonizing in. If the bag of grains is properly hydrated, sterilized and sealed, a dry environment should not be an issue.

Oops sorry I was confused I didn't really read the whole thing.. I saw that it was moist inside the bag and had flashbacks
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#6 picapau

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 09:08 AM

 

I'm not sure you are asking about grain preparation - since DaveyJones seems to think so - or the humidity of the environment you have you bag colonizing in. If the bag of grains is properly hydrated, sterilized and sealed, a dry environment should not be an issue.

Oops sorry I was confused I didn't really read the whole thing.. I saw that it was moist inside the bag and had flashbacks

 

no worries.

 

I don't know that I ill play around with grain (rye) much going forward. I'm liking the idea of using BRF to colonize straw or bird seed.....some great info here on that. 

 

I assume from your comment that external moisture on the rye contaminated it?


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#7 DaveyJonez

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 09:11 AM

I'm not sure you are asking about grain preparation - since DaveyJones seems to think so - or the humidity of the environment you have you bag colonizing in. If the bag of grains is properly hydrated, sterilized and sealed, a dry environment should not be an issue.

Oops sorry I was confused I didn't really read the whole thing.. I saw that it was moist inside the bag and had flashbacks
no worries.

I don't know that I ill play around with grain (rye) much going forward. I'm liking the idea of using BRF to colonize straw or bird seed.....some great info here on that.

I assume from your comment that external moisture on the rye contaminated it?
Well, like I said I'm no expert but it was probably either that or not pressure cooker for long enough.. My bags started out fine and then I lost them to wetness. But I'm told the wetness was probably bacterial slime... Maybe I shouldn't comment so much when I don't know anything lol!
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#8 picapau

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 09:23 AM

 

 

 

I'm not sure you are asking about grain preparation - since DaveyJones seems to think so - or the humidity of the environment you have you bag colonizing in. If the bag of grains is properly hydrated, sterilized and sealed, a dry environment should not be an issue.

Oops sorry I was confused I didn't really read the whole thing.. I saw that it was moist inside the bag and had flashbacks
no worries.

I don't know that I ill play around with grain (rye) much going forward. I'm liking the idea of using BRF to colonize straw or bird seed.....some great info here on that.

I assume from your comment that external moisture on the rye contaminated it?
Well, like I said I'm no expert but it was probably either that or not pressure cooker for long enough.. My bags started out fine and then I lost them to wetness. But I'm told the wetness was probably bacterial slime... Maybe I shouldn't comment so much when I don't know anything lol!

 

i don't mind the comments on my thread at all.

 

i have one prior cultivation experience.... and it was  successful. I imagine I just had some luck.   I don't know much more than what I've read otherwise....so, I'm interested in all the opinions and such.

 

most of my experience is on the medicine journey itself....ego-death TEK?  lol


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#9 RutgerHauer

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 09:47 AM

I had some trouble with rye as well. Popcorn works for me, have never done BRF. If you have something that works for you, I think it is wise to stick with that for a while.
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#10 DaveyJonez

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 09:53 AM

Ego death tek: just go with it
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#11 Microbe

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 11:12 AM

Rye is a excellent grain to use (i prefer whole oats) and if its growing slow its either genetics, cool temps, extreme hot temps, too much moisture, or contaminated.

As far as excess moisture on the grains causing contamination, this is not possible assuming proper sterilization. Contamination is a result of the organism that contaminated the grains rather it be bacteria or mold and again if proper sterilization was achieved, then it was introduced via inoculate, breech in the filter/bag/lid, or operator error.

If you were to completely submerge grains in water and seal the lid making it air tight and sterilize properly, the oats or eater will never contaminate and if all the O2 was evacuated, the grains will remained unchanged for centuries assuming not disturbed such as viciously shaking them.

My point is moisture does not result in contamination but instead acts as a super highway for bacteria and more aggressive fungi like molds to move throughout the substrate very aggressively. Think of water as being a super highway for the competitor to travel through.

Now excess moisture is a problem and even though we ise high efficiency filter patches, it does not stop everything and spores are dirty by nature so there will always be competition so by eliminating excess moisture sets the target fungi up for success.

I probably babbled on longer then i should have about this but i felt i would have came off as a dick if i just said moisture doesnt cause contamination. Its very detrimental for sure.

Using cakes to inoculate straw will work but will be much more labor intensive depending on the method you want to use them especially if you want to expand or extract the mycelium. Its easier to expand 1 jar of grains into 10 more jars of grain versus expanding 1 cake into 10 cakes even if you were to milk or extract the mycelium.
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#12 picapau

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 11:46 AM

I had some trouble with rye as well. Popcorn works for me, have never done BRF. If you have something that works for you, I think it is wise to stick with that for a while.

I'm not having trouble yet....but knock on wood.

 

I agree about sticking with something that works. I guess I'm in the process of that.


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#13 DaveyJonez

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 11:57 AM

Rye is a excellent grain to use (i prefer whole oats) and if its growing slow its either genetics, cool temps, extreme hot temps, too much moisture, or contaminated.

As far as excess moisture on the grains causing contamination, this is not possible assuming proper sterilization. Contamination is a result of the organism that contaminated the grains rather it be bacteria or mold and again if proper sterilization was achieved, then it was introduced via inoculate, breech in the filter/bag/lid, or operator error.

If you were to completely submerge grains in water and seal the lid making it air tight and sterilize properly, the oats or eater will never contaminate and if all the O2 was evacuated, the grains will remained unchanged for centuries assuming not disturbed such as viciously shaking them.

My point is moisture does not result in contamination but instead acts as a super highway for bacteria and more aggressive fungi like molds to move throughout the substrate very aggressively. Think of water as being a super highway for the competitor to travel through.

Now excess moisture is a problem and even though we ise high efficiency filter patches, it does not stop everything and spores are dirty by nature so there will always be competition so by eliminating excess moisture sets the target fungi up for success.

I probably babbled on longer then i should have about this but i felt i would have came off as a dick if i just said moisture doesnt cause contamination. Its very detrimental for sure.

Using cakes to inoculate straw will work but will be much more labor intensive depending on the method you want to use them especially if you want to expand or extract the mycelium. Its easier to expand 1 jar of grains into 10 more jars of grain versus expanding 1 cake into 10 cakes even if you were to milk or extract the mycelium.

I appreciate the clarification! Thank you
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#14 picapau

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Posted 13 April 2019 - 12:01 PM

Rye is a excellent grain to use (i prefer whole oats) and if its growing slow its either genetics, cool temps, extreme hot temps, too much moisture, or contaminated.

 

That  post was great info for me, thanks!

 

Moisture as the medium for bacteria makes sense.

 

As for the BRF to straw stuff, I was thinking of crumbling and layering a few cakes into a bed of pasteurized straw...or birdseed ....

 

I am just trying casing for the first time. I'm doing Hippies casing for dummies method...cause I'm a dummy ;)  But it seems wise to me, once I have something colonized, to keep it going rather than germinate news spores each time. So, I may try a grain to grain procedure if my current bags are successful.

 

If I have the grain going I can just use it and there would be no real reason to do the cakes....other than I'm just going to do some for the fun of it.

 

I forgot how much fun this is and how having it all in the house with me is like being on a multi-week micro-dose.

 

 

 

Birdseed and straw are attractive ideas to me. I'll also look into the popcorn method when I get a sec.


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#15 picapau

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Posted 16 April 2019 - 09:16 PM

Ha....this is funny. When I did a run on BRF years ago, I had no forum or anyone to ask questions  questions of. Now, I am hyperfocused on every little detail.

 

Anyway, with my 4 bags of grain all have started growing. I had the temp a little too cool and it was slow going. Over the past 3 days I have maintained 75-80 degrees. 

 

2 of the bags are starting to take off while the other two are lagging. The two that are lagging have very little moisture visible on the inside of the bag compared to the other two that are thriving.

 

Basically, it appears that two of my bags are not as moist.  I don't know how dry/moist they are in terms of whats ideal. They are sealed bags with air filters and self-healing injection sites.

 

grain_instructions_5-1_filter_breathe.jp

 

That ^ is the bag.

 

Questions for anyone willing to consider:

 

What are tell tale signs that the bag may be too dry?

 

Is there any remedy for this if that should be the case?

 

 

TIA

 

 

ETA: if there is any copy-write issue with photo, please delete it or let me know and I will


Edited by picapau, 16 April 2019 - 09:18 PM.


#16 Microbe

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 03:42 PM

Ha....this is funny. When I did a run on BRF years ago, I had no forum or anyone to ask questions questions of. Now, I am hyperfocused on every little detail.

Anyway, with my 4 bags of grain all have started growing. I had the temp a little too cool and it was slow going. Over the past 3 days I have maintained 75-80 degrees.

2 of the bags are starting to take off while the other two are lagging. The two that are lagging have very little moisture visible on the inside of the bag compared to the other two that are thriving.

Basically, it appears that two of my bags are not as moist. I don't know how dry/moist they are in terms of whats ideal. They are sealed bags with air filters and self-healing injection sites.

grain_instructions_5-1_filter_breathe.jp

That ^ is the bag.

Questions for anyone willing to consider:

What are tell tale signs that the bag may be too dry?

Is there any remedy for this if that should be the case?


TIA


ETA: if there is any copy-write issue with photo, please delete it or let me know and I will

Condensation is a good indicator and a simple method to use but may not always be accurate. If the bag temp and ambient air temps are close then you may not see any condensation. You can pinch a piece of grain through the bag and after experience can determine rather its dry, perfect, or wet. If your looking at colonization and specifically cubes, if you have growth it may appear very translucent and you can see the grains through the mycelium. It can grow a little whispy and depending on the types of grain used it could have a slight hue to it. Light color grains the colony will appear almost clear while darker grains could make the colony appear more grey.

As far as a remedy there isnt much you can do as far as grain spawn. If you have some decent mycelium mass you can attempt to extract it using sterilized water and transfer it to some fresh hydrated and sterilized grains to start new bags but you need to be very comfortable with your process or confident that your donor bag isnt contaminated.
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#17 Microbe

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Posted 20 April 2019 - 03:55 PM

Im a little confused and maybe the statements ran together unintended but i have to ask but how are you connecting casing to keeping a culture going and not having to germinate new spores?

I agree 100% if you can get a good culture going and isolate it, then hands down this trumps the roulette game of germinating spores. There are many ways of keeping a culture going and some better then others. I reccomend distilled water storage with a back up copy on a master slant followed by agar plate but one can use grain jars as well or brf or even liquid culture while grain jars are probably the easiest and when done properly, you can keep a culture alive and healthy for at least 90 days on grain before having to transfer to a new jar but it is the hardest on the colony as far as aging or Senescence.

With that being said you can transfer from grain jar to grain jar for decades and never see the colony completely succumb to senescence and i assure you it will out live you. Might be slow and fruit poorly years from now but it will be alive.
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#18 picapau

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Posted 22 April 2019 - 11:12 PM

Thanks for all the info Microbe!

 

I haven't had internet for a bit.

 

Jar to jar is how I am looking at chaining it together.  But i'll look further into what you have shared t see if I can pull of some of the other methods you mentioned.

 

My bags are looking good, by the way....as you stated the condensation inside was not a clear depiction of the actual moisture in the grain. I moved to heat up a few degrees and the bags are taking off.

 

Thank again~


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#19 picapau

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Posted 13 July 2019 - 07:04 PM

I have been without reliable internet for some time but been intending to update for the sake of recording my experience. I also have a couple of questions for anyone who might read this.

 

first off...I am not impressed with the bag method. It sounded cool and easy but I am just having no real success get the 2.5 lbs of substrate to fully colonize. It's been a long time and I quit keeping track of actual time passed as I've been busy with two chambers of cakes and taking my first spore prints. Which I am thoroughly enjoying!

 

Both bags seemed to stall at about 80%-90% colonization. So, I left one to keep going. I broke the other one up  and cased it in a simple vermiculite casing in a deep baking pan and covered it with foil. Just seeing if it will go out of the bag.

 

1st question:  after about 8 days I lifted the foil to check it and found some little spots of fluffy white stuff that wasn't mycelia.  I doused it with H2O2 and re-covered it and it hasn't returned. Still not seeing the mycelium braking the casing yet after 10 days.

The question I have is whether or not the white fluff is a deal breaker? Before I sprayed it, I pushed a spot of it with a gloved finger and it liquefied. There might have been 6 little spots of it. I'm not super down with posting photos....but the fluff was pure white...so, hopefully that is enough to give someone an idea.

 

The other bag is still not fully done and I am about ready to bust it up and case it anyway.

 

 

My cakes are doing very well. I did 8 b+...8 golden teacher...and 8 treasure coast.

 

I'm not a real fan of the teachers based on their mass. Maybe they will be worth it on the consumption side of things.

 

The other two strains are really dense.

 

I 've taken spore prints of each strain. Thanks to Billcoz for a tek he posted here somewhere on that.

 

My question about the cakes:

 

The last time I grew  them I had no idea about dunking. My cakes then did 3-ish flushes and each flush was less than the preceding one.

 

I dunked all these current cakes before and between the first two flushes (currently in the middle of the 2nd flush) and I am getting more on my 2nd flush than the first. (about half again as much) Is this common?

 

I let the cakes sit outside of the chamber in a pot for 24 hrs before the second dunk.

 

Is it possible I could have gotten more from the first flush? I had them at 75-78 degrees for the first flush but have since moved them to mid-80's for the second flush.

 

 

Any thoughts or data is appreciated.

 

I love this forum and all the info...it's incredible....and I'm super stoked to see if I can pull off some clean syringes and keep it rolling.


Edited by picapau, 13 July 2019 - 07:07 PM.

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