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Voodoo Tek Alive And Well


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#21 hogwild

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Posted 27 May 2006 - 11:13 PM

i could see someone using an iv type of thing to hydrate a cake, but certainly not using sugar water. The iv would simply be a larger version of a straw or Inner reservoir tek. Give it a try and let us know what the results are.

#22 Hippie3

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 07:17 AM

i tried straws
didn't like them
besides there are drawbacks to
leaving standing water in a straw
for several days in warm environ
namely bacteria.
plus the straw prevents water from being absorbed
along the entire length of the hole
so just seeps out the end
actually absorbing less water but taking longer
that is why
i invented the 'voodoo' method
of sinking a 'well' into the cake,
it absorbs along the entire length quicker
and triggers more pinning near the holes
than you see with straws.

#23 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 09:19 AM

I've kicked the idea of a wicking system of some kind around, but have yet to come up with anything that sounds highly beneficial without also being a huge PITA or major contamination vector.

Inner reservoir cakes are kind of like that. They work great, but they are assholes to make and deal with.

Gotta say, though, I like the cleanliness of Voodoo over DEC (if not the straw refilling). I'm pretty lazy!

#24 morg59

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 11:15 AM

Im not talking about just re-hydrating the cake... Im wanting to replenish the cake with nutrients to extend the cakes flushes indefinately. The reason we throw out the cakes after 4 or so flushes is that the nutrients are depleted not beacuse the cakes are dehydrated. If I could drip in some kind of nutrient replacement there would be no reason to have to get the pressure cooker out, buy more vermiculite, wait for them to colonize, ect... All you would have to do is make an initial set of cakes, set them up on some kind of nutirent replacement drip and sit back and harvest over and over...

#25 mullugh

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 11:26 AM

i think this is genetically impossible, but may work for a little while if contams dont get in on the act... nice dream though!

#26 OZ

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 11:40 AM

morg, the myc is weak and wont fruit anymore, thats why we throw out cakes. The cakes arent CLOSE to nutrient deficiency by the time we toss them

#27 morg59

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 05:03 PM

If the cakes are not close to deficency why dont we adjust the recipe to have more more verm and less BRF so they hold moisture better?

#28 encapsulated

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Posted 28 May 2006 - 06:32 PM

BB was saying that he would like to find a way to give the cake more nutes without introducing contams and he also said he did the vodoo tek instead of the DEC tek right? well if you did the vodoo tek and you didnt want to have the karo water or whatever liquid nutes be exposed to the air what about puttin a blob of silicone over one end of the straw and having the other end of the straw fit nicely and airtight (so to speak) down in the cake so no contams can land on the nute solution and then you can use a syringe to inject karo water or whatever nute liquid you would like into the cake and the straw would be sealed off from the air so it couldnt get contammed?.....Let me know what you guys think!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#29 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 08:57 AM

Re-introducing nutrients won't solve the problem of senescence. Google that word and do a little quick reading, this will all make a lot more sense.

The mycelial mass knows how old it is and simply ages and slows down after a while, fruiting less and less and becoming more and more suceptible to contamination the slower it gets. The next time you have a "spent" cake, dissect it under some decent light. You'll be able to see the undigested nutrients still inside, especially if you examine it with a loupe or magnifying glass.

The wicking/slow dripping system I've been trying to get right in my head would only add pure water, in an effort to keep the cake's hydration level as close to maximal as possible throught it's life.

The cakes my FOAF has done have been both DEC and Voodoo style. Truth is, FOAF prefers nuggets or casings, considering cakes to be a huge PITA. That's opinion, only...some people love cakes...FOAF just isn't one of them!

The thing is, though, simply pumping nutrients in on one side and pulling mushrooms off the other side is not your only concern. After a few months, the mycelia itself will be very old and will slow down just like an old person. Cubensis is a very "fast living" mushroom - fast to grow, fast to fruit AND fast to get old/senesce.

*KIND* of like marijuana, your Cubies grow up to a big plant real quick, pump you out some beautiful fruits and then die off. You can't keep harvesting buds off the same flowering plant forever and you can't harvest shroomies off the same cake forever. Mycelia and plants are very different in specific function, but very similar in "birth, growth, reproduction, death" concepts.

Try a litttle experiment. The next time you have a cake go spent, tear it open in the glove box and remove a little bit of clean myc from inside the cake. Throw the clean myc in a new jar or petri dish and watch it grow. The myc will be super SLOW compared to the original culture. Also, unfortunately, the older and weaker the culture gets, the more suceptible it becomes to contamination.

Loss of nutrients/moisture isn't the reasons cakes/casings eventually get "spent." FOAF let a case go for almost four months. It still occasionally spit out a shroom or two, but "old age" harvest was NOTHING compared to it's first 4-5 flushes. FOAF has tried cleaning/crumbling spent subs/cakes to new bulk substrate. The result was very slow growth with a high liklihood of contaminantion.

It is important to have a continously rotating source of fresh myc to keep your projects functioning at maximum efficiency. It is also important to go back to spores every six months or so, as clone cultures (even when you keep them cold and work from masters) will also age and slow down over time.

#30 beebopboy

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 02:13 PM

Write us a report why dont ya! :lol:

JK

I love those long ass write-ups

#31 Lazlo

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 04:10 PM

I'm not so sure of that. I know of 2 commercial farmers that have been using the same isolates for over 20 years. Rotating the isolates on different agar mediums like PDA, MYA, MEA, PDY, exc. One of them forces his isolates to eat a slurry made from ground up Crickets to really keep the isolate going strong.

#32 night_ryder

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 04:31 PM

conflicting evidence, one says myc can't continuously grow from the same isolate over time, the other says some farmers have been for 20yrs.

#33 Lazlo

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 04:38 PM

Mr. Peele says that a simple culture swap of MEA and PDA will surfice.

#34 beebopboy

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 11:42 PM

Well thats growing new mycelium networks, not replentshing old ones.

#35 beebopboy

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Posted 29 May 2006 - 11:46 PM

Ive tried to spawn spent cakes before with poor results. It could have something to do with the mycelium cell's life cycle. Growing phase, fruiting phase, death? It makes sense because an isolate is never told to fruit

#36 encapsulated

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 12:23 AM

I only posted that b/c he was talking about giving liquid nutes via vodoo tek and i thought that that would solve the problem of the liquid nutes being open to contams that is all i didnt say it would work or anything i was just merley saying that would solve the liquid nutes being in the open air...... not that nay of you said i said it would solve the problem :)

#37 Raul del Angelo

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 02:47 PM

BB Thank you for your discussion of senescence.
I have wondered why we didn't value our spent
cakes. It would seem that in the life cycle of
mushrooms outdoors that the spores that drop
from the fruits would recolonize the old mycelium
and utilize the remaining nutes and the old would
die off, as opposed to the old just refruiting each
year.

So it would seem the real value of the spent cakes
we throw in the compost pile is the spores that
have collect on them and the remaining nutrients that
in the spent materials.

Got to readjust my thinking.

Peace, Raul

#38 OZ

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 03:45 PM

if i was to get some crazy fruiting substrain, i would clone it once, and then use that 1 plate to make like 30 more, so i could use that 30 to innoc grain and then use that ect... so no matter how many times he grows that, it is still from the mother clone

#39 BuckarooBanzai

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Posted 30 May 2006 - 04:46 PM

Dig it. Make one big jar of clone liquid culture (or one big plate) then throw it in the fridge once fully colonized. As you are ready to use it, pull some from the master, grow it out, and then fruit it. Keep the master as young as possible by keeping it in the fridge (or drying the myc out and putting it into suspended animation).

Once a year or so, you should swap the nutrient source the master culture is using, to keep it vigerous. Never use antibiotic medias with master cultures as atibiotics can weaken them.

Never make a clone of fruit grown from a clone source - it invites genetic defects. Go back to the master whenever you are ready to grow again.

A master culture can be kept quite hardy for many years using this technique (that's what the "big boys" who do this for a living do). Vacutainers work quite magnificently for this...




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