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Ultrasonic psilo extraction?


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#1 Billcoz

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 02:13 AM

Hey mushroom people, I don't have a phone with a camera still so I can't post pics, and I'm not really doing anything exciting as far as grows or myco stuff, but I wanted to make a post about this website for lab equipment I found advertising this "ultrasonic extraction device". It explains that ultrasonic extraction can be used to get "high psilo yield and fast extaction time", using ethanol or methanol.

 

There was a short video clip on the page showing a beaker full of a clear liquid with a metal apparatus of some sort sticking down into it, sitting on a tray. A hand appears and dumps in a bunch of what looks like wood shavings,. It's supposed to stand in for shrooms, that is what it is advertised and apparently designed for. The wierd hand comes in and dumps in about a few grams dry worth. The apparatus starts to "ultrasonically" stir the mixture, going very fast and making a high pitched screech noise that was loud as shit. I suppose it was acting as a centrifuge to push the solvent through the material, hopefully carrying all the magical shit out into the solution. Then it stops, not having chewed/chopped up the material any more than it was, it was just as course as when it started, then it panned to show the rest of the apparatus from the side.

 

The site was very pro and actually the for manufacturer for the machine, and had a lot more high end looking lab equip. The company is Hishler Ultrasound Technology, IDK if I should link to the site here, so I will copy the descriptions of the machine and it's uses below. 

 

It seems like this machine and others on the site are designed by them for the specific purpose of extracting drugs(LOL), even CBD from cannabis(!), and other chemicals/alkaloids from plants etc. It seems pretty high tech and legit I am not familiar with brands of this type of stuff(lab equipment). They list many other "sciency" uses for this and many fancy pieces of lab equip they make and sell. Also, they list a shit ton of applications for them. It's surprising to me that they advertise it for these purposes since it seems to be such high-tech equipment from a high-end lab equipment manufacturer. I might expect them to advertise it for cannabis(medical) but they specifically talk about mushrooms, I was like, "I'll be damned!".

 

IDK if this was the right forum to post this, if not it can be moved or whatever. I just thought it was awesome. I wondered if anyone has ever heard of this, or knows if it works to extract the psilly, or might it be bullshit(I doubt it, being such a pro ass site)? 

 

Here is the description of the machine from the website-

 

Ultrasonic Psilocybin Extraction from Mushrooms-

Psilocybin is the active substance extracted from hallucinogenic mushrooms. Ultrasonic extraction is often used to extract the psilocybin efficiently from mushrooms. Ultrasonic extraction gives high psilocybin yield in a very rapid extraction time.

 

Ultrasonic Isolation of Psilocybin-

Ultrasonic extraction of dried magic mushroom material works very well with ethanol or methanol as solvent. For best results, it is recommended to used dried mushroom. Before ultrasonication, the dried mushroom material should be ground to provide a large surface area for the mass transfer between the mushroom and solvent. The ultrasonic treatment breaks the cell walls of the mushroom so that the psilocybin and psilocin molecules are released into the solvent. The ultrasonic isolation method of active substances such as psilocybin is used to extract the compounds for medical as well as for analytical purposes.

 

Ultrasonic Extraction-

 

Ultrasound is known as the most simple and most versatile method for cell disruption and the production of extracts. High-power ultrasound waves are successfully used in the food, pharma and nutraceutical industry to isolate targeted compounds from plant and animal tissues. Typical applications include the extraction of flavour ingredients from foods (e.g. tomato, herbs, coffee, fruits, shellfish etc.) as well as the isolation of pharmaceutically and nutraceutically active substances (e.g. CBD from cannabis, high molecular weight polysaccharides from medicinal mushrooms, vitamins from vegetables etc.). One main advantage of ultrasound-assisted cell lysis and isolation the outstanding effectiveness of the extraction procedure, resulting in very high yields and fast extraction rates. Another advantages, which comes in play with food and medical substances, is that sonication is an non-thermal process. This means active compounds are not treated at high temperatures so that thermal degradation of the extracts is avoided – protecting the extracts’ bioactivity.

 

Ultrasonic Extraction Equipment-

 

Hielscher Ultrasonics supplies ultrasonic devices for the cell disruption and extraction on lab and industrial scale. For the extraction of lab samples and smaller batches up to 4L (or up to 50L/hr with flow cell), an ultrasonic lab homogenizer such as the UP200St (200W) or UP400St (400W) is powerful and efficient enough to fulfil the treatment. Besides extraction, the same ultrasonic device can be used for the preparation of emulsions or tinctures, e.g. to improve bioavailability and digestibility.


Edited by Billcoz, 10 May 2019 - 02:20 AM.

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#2 Billcoz

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 04:40 AM

This machine would not yield crystals or anything by reducing down the alcohol alone, that would take some real chemistry magic, since the psilo-molecules are bonded to some other crud in the shrooms that makes it hard to extract(that's my depth of chemistry knowledge lol). But, it would make a goo if evapped off, but who wants to spend hundreds on something you can do with a $20 bottle of everclear?

 

I wanted to post this because I recently did my first everclear extraction and have been looking for good ways to reduce my stash of "magic" down to a more managable amount of dried bulk, so I tried coorsMikey's psilly ethanol extract method, pretty simple, I didn't measure or anything. I just used a few grams, prolly 3-3.5 eyeballed to try it out.

 

I ground em up and covered with 151 proof everclear, since my state does not allow 190. I soaked it for 2 days, shaking every once in a while, then filtered through a coffee filter with a dust mask layered in it, and resoaked the mush crud for another 20 hours or so in new alc and filtered it. I reduced it down a bit to about a shot or a little more and hit it straight. Damnit it was fuckin' gross!

 

I tripped like a motherfucker for a few hours, way better than I expected for only ~3 grams, and I would think there would have been loss of active stuff in the bullshit after fitering. The liquid was dark "asparagus-piss" yellow and nasty, as I said, but the trip was super clear but short, and it seemed to hit me in about 10-15 mins, maybe less. It hit all at once and I had no :"stomach wiggles" or nausea, and it was really colorful and visual.

 

I was outside from evening to late because it was the first night that was sort of nice temp wise. All the trees/some flowers were budding and sweet spring smells were in the air. Spring is the best time of year to trip IMO. I get manic in spring, this is my psychedelic season.

 

So I'm trying to find ways to break down my bulk stash, not that I'd buy that really fuckin' expensive piece of lab machinery, I just wanted to share and see your guys'(girls' too) opinions and tell about my first extraction and the trip. Plus if anyone has any other extraction teks or links or other ways of downsizing the bulk of dried mushkers, please do share. I am planning to make a butt-load of honey as well, that's always awesome. 


Edited by Billcoz, 10 May 2019 - 05:14 AM.

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#3 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 10:55 AM

Here is the Solubility for Psilocybin taken from the PubChem website: https://pubchem.ncbi...ntal-Properties
 

Note that it specifically states that Psilocybin is difficult to get into solution in ethanol.  I suspect that the 25% water in your 151 proof everclear is what really pulled the actives out, then when you reduced it, they had nowhere else to go but into a concentrated solution of the alcohol.  It is very soluble in water as you can see - and it sounds like the effects are very similar to making a tea.

 

One other thing on the site that I did not copy was that the taste of pure psilocybin is stated to be "like ammonia" so your statement about it looking like piss, well apparently it tastes like piss as well!  :tongue:

 

3.2.4Solubility

Solubilities
Soluble in 120 parts boiling methanol; difficultly soluble in ethanol; practically insoluble in chloroformbenzene.
O'Neil, M.J. (ed.). The Merck Index - An Encyclopedia of Chemicals, Drugs, and Biologicals. 13th Edition, Whitehouse Station, NJ: Merck and Co., Inc.,2001., p. 1419


Solubilities
Soluble in 20 parts boiling water
O'Neil, M.J. (ed.). The Merck Index - An Encyclopedia of Chemicals, Drugs, and Biologicals. 13th Edition, Whitehouse Station, NJ: Merck and Co., Inc.,2001., p. 1419


Edited by SteampunkScientist, 10 May 2019 - 10:57 AM.

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#4 joeya

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Posted 10 May 2019 - 11:21 AM

Billcoz, I like the trip report! I'm sold on the idea of trying CoorsMikey's tek once I yield off of this current grow. I've got a kick ass back yard that would be a blast for tripping at night like this!


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#5 Billcoz

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 12:30 AM

 

Yeah, it sure did work, it may be the water doing most of the work but I think at least some goodies come out in the ethanol. I have been reading a lot of psilly-chem stuff here and on dmt-nexus but I don't do well remembering all the details. I do remember someone saying that it might be more soluble hot ethanol, but it seems methanol is what is really needed.

 

People talk about adding citric acid to the alc and getting the PH down to about 3, which does some "voo-doo" that makes the psillyness more soluble in it. Then it would have to be reduced and washed with some other solvent(acetone?) to defat. That was something an obviously experienced person was saying in a nexus thread. I will be reading up on it more & I'll read your pubchem link.

 

Don't take any of my ramblings as me saying I know any of it to be true, I have a passing interest in extraction but the everclear thing works plenty good for me. Plus it can just be evapped down to the goo, and then purified further with chem-magic if one wants to go into the science.

 

This would be a good thread to post any psilo-chemistry knowledge anyone might have to add. I'll be trying to learn how it all works and post my findings/ideas/results(if any) here.


Edited by Billcoz, 11 May 2019 - 12:32 AM.

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#6 Cuboid

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 04:39 AM

" but it seems methanol is what is really needed" - probably worth reminding folks Methanol is highly toxic to humans. Don't risk ingesting methanol if you value your internal organs and eyesight ...
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#7 joeya

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Posted 11 May 2019 - 09:03 AM

I wonder if the butane extraction methods used to make hash oil would have any use with psilocybin? I understand cannabis extraction a lot better, I don't know enough yet about psilocybin to guess what translates from the cannabis world to the mushroom world though. It will be fun learning and experimenting!


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#8 Billcoz

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 12:36 AM

Great point about the toxicity of methanol, *DO NOT INGEST METHANOL*, I'd hate for someone to read my words and hurt themselves because I didn't mention that. Methanol would be used to extract it and then evaporated COMPLETELY before the psilo is safe for consumption.

 

As for butane, I remember reading someone suggest that it might work but methanol would still be superior. I think it's be worth trying, since butane evaporates so easily and quickly. Another warning, BUTANE IS DANGEROUS as it is highly flammable and explosive, and needs to be used under a fume hood or outdoors, away from any sparks or flame, even a stronger static spark can cause a huge explosion, please be careful.


Edited by Billcoz, 12 May 2019 - 12:47 AM.

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#9 Billcoz

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 12:45 AM

I forgot to say that I was reading on dmtnexus more, and a lot of the actual chemists that post on there do talk about using ultrasonic, and other high tech doo-dads to extract psilocybin in methanol/ethanol. I thought that was interesting, the cetrifugal/supersonic action would help push the alkaloid-carrying solvent out of the flesh of the scrooms. 



#10 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 09:58 AM

Let's not forget that much of the alcohols available to the average person found outside of the liquor store are DENATURED!!!

This means poison has been added, to be simplistic. Those poisons are there to prevent you from drinking, or selling the alcohol, because then Uncle Smiley can't get his tax buck...so he'd rather kill you than see you make money from alcohol sales.

These adulterants may stay in your extraction... Just don't do it unless you know your starting materials completely.
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#11 Billcoz

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Posted 12 May 2019 - 05:21 PM

Yeah the laws take revenue into account more so than human health, sort of like like with health care in the US, which is a profit driven "market" prioritizing money over human health, but that's all I'll say here about the politics. Your point is a good one steampunk, it seems like it's manslaughter to poison a drink and then dare people to consume it, fucking assholes. Well okay, not so much "dare", but to put poison in a drink specifically because you know there are people who simply cannot resist a drink, because of one of the most powerful physical/mental addictions/chemical dependencies there is with humans, also knowing that young people who can't but it might ignore warnings, that is at the very least gross negligence, or possibly involuntary, or even voluntary manslaughter, IMO.


Edited by Billcoz, 12 May 2019 - 05:25 PM.

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#12 Billcoz

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 03:35 PM

I was reading some stuff a while back in a sort of "chemistry oriented" forum on another site that was interesting. A forum member there was reluctantly giving clues to how they actually went about extracting psilocybin from shrooms and was kind of talked into giving an answer by others there.

 

It was actually pretty simple, though dangerous, well as dangerous as making BHO from cannabis(dangerous enough that you can blow yourself up lol). She basically said you can blow the stuff that is stuck to the molecule(fats/proteins/sugars) that makes it so "difficultly soluble" in ethanol, just like you would with cannabis, with butane *DO NOT TRY THIS, IT'S EXPLOSIVE*.

 

The sugars/proteins that are attached to the 'cybin molecule(a zwitterion) come off with the butane flowing through the pulp in the extractor tube, leaving the magic in the pulp, so unlike bho, you discard what comes out with the butane.

 

Then methanol, or even ethanol can be more easily used(according to that forum member) to extract the psilocybin, this is where the "ultrasonic separation/agitation" could be used to more efficiently extract the goodies.

 

Then she said something about chromatography, that was all the details she gave or that I remember.

 

I am not a chemist, I have made bho before but it was very nerve wracking, seeing as how explosive it is(I did it outside), and I've made mesc from san pedro, and deems from mhrb, but psilo would be cool, but not really practical to extract to high purity.

 

I do not recommend anyone do this, the idea just interested me, not because I want to try it, just that you would think there would be an easier way to extract psilo, without all the "chromatography" etc. Reading about it, you'll find that  10-15 years ago or so people were still claiming to get crystals from ethanol extracts that were psilo, then people learned that they were not truly active and those people were actually full of poop. The posts I read for the info I gathered were from 2017, from serious chemists who did not recommend this extraction either, but still, it's interesting to me that the molecule is such a botch to dislodge and get pure psilo, not that it's at all necessary to get the full experience from shrooms.


Edited by Billcoz, 19 May 2019 - 03:39 PM.


#13 coorsmikey

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 09:01 PM

Separate the organic material from a methanol extraction ( which the ultrasonic may help with) and you can get crystalline.



#14 Billcoz

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 11:11 PM

I want to add a link to the vid with the "Hielscher' extractor machine I was talking about https://www.hielsche...53x0480.mp4?_=1



#15 Billcoz

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Posted 23 May 2019 - 10:55 PM

I was thinking about something, lemon tek bsupposedly converts the 'cybin to 'cin. If one were to do a lemon tek, then use naphtha or something to extract the converted psilocin, then evap the solvent. The psilocin could possibly be vaporized. 

 

This is not really something I am interested in attempting(any time soon), it was just an idea I had and I wanted to share it, what do you all think?



#16 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:54 PM

You have to do that evap in a nitrogen or carbon dioxide purged vacuum, because p-cin reacts very quickly with oxygen and turns into blue dye. You could do that with a mason jar, some tubing and one of those vacuum pumps from harbor freight. Then just put some dry ice in the jar.

On the other hand you can also evap the pysocybin as it is, and drink it with lemon juice so it converts in your stomach faster. And it's much more stable dry. I would keep it in deoxiginated grain alcohol for storage for any amount of time.

Edited by SteampunkScientist, 25 May 2019 - 02:59 PM.


#17 coorsmikey

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 06:24 PM

I have my doubts that the naptha would pull any psilly unless it was a base, Isn't lemon acidic?



#18 Billcoz

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 11:46 PM

You have to do that evap in a nitrogen or carbon dioxide purged vacuum, because p-cin reacts very quickly with oxygen and turns into blue dye. You could do that with a mason jar, some tubing and one of those vacuum pumps from harbor freight. Then just put some dry ice in the jar.

On the other hand you can also evap the pysocybin as it is, and drink it with lemon juice so it converts in your stomach faster. And it's much more stable dry. I would keep it in deoxiginated grain alcohol for storage for any amount of time.

Yeah I think it would be completely oxidized in like 24 hrs or less.

 

I have my doubts that the naptha would pull any psilly unless it was a base, Isn't lemon acidic?

Yeah, I think your your right. I was reading some stuff and someone gave a over-simplified method of basically the same idea, he mentions using naphtha or other solvents to freeze precipitate psilocin crystals after an a/b.

 

That was where I got the thought of psilocin in naphtha, but had got it confused. Here's the quote from his(benzyme from dmt-nexus) post-

it's an a/b to first convert psilocybin to psilocin, then to free base. freeze precip with light naptha, or dcm, maybe even heptane. the latter would be most desirable, since it would be easier to cold filter them, and recrystallize if needed. 

the crystals melt quickly in dcm, it's just odd that they crash out in cold dcm. wrong.png 

logP of dcm is 1.5, psilocin is 2.1.


Edited by Billcoz, 26 May 2019 - 12:13 AM.


#19 SteampunkScientist

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Posted 29 May 2019 - 04:57 PM

The thing is, both p-cin and p-bin are very soluble in plain old water (minus the dissolved oxygen). So, for my money and time, a tea extraction works best - and you could always freeze dry it to powder if desired. 


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#20 Billcoz

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Posted 30 May 2019 - 11:58 PM

The thing is, both p-cin and p-bin are very soluble in plain old water (minus the dissolved oxygen). So, for my money and time, a tea extraction works best - and you could always freeze dry it to powder if desired. 

I am really just interested in the "theory" of the process, rather than actually doing this. I thought it was cool that, being that psilocybin can be converted to psilocin, then extracted as freebase and possibly vaporized, which would possibly be(and I've read that it IS) along the lines of the intensity of effects of vaped DMT.

 

I do feel the same, that it is not very practical, and that for my time and money it's better to do something like a tea. However, the "lemon tek" for me is much better, much more "psychedelic" effects and less bodily sensations, since the 'cybin is converted to 'cin before ingestion/digestion. If I were to get the urge to see how well vaped free base psilocin compares to DMT I'd probably go for it, you know, for science!


Edited by Billcoz, 30 May 2019 - 11:59 PM.

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