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Penis Envy Enigma?


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#1 Akari

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 04:46 PM

So, my interest is piqued. I found these on a myc group on Facebook. The poster said they were Penis Envy Enigma. Said they were a Penis Envy/B+ cross strain. Yet when I look this up I find next to nothing. Also, I've done some research here, and the room seems split. How exactly do you make a cross strain?



#2 Akari

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 04:46 PM

So, my interest is piqued. I found these on a myc group on Facebook. The poster said they were Penis Envy Enigma. Said they were a Penis Envy/B+ cross strain. Yet when I look this up I find next to nothing. Also, I've done some research here, and the room seems split. How exactly do you make a cross strain?

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#3 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 05:04 PM

The likelihood of them being a true cross is pretty low. IMO.

Is this the guy who 'nocced his jars w/ one strain, no growth for 6mo, then shot it up w/ the other strain?

Mushroom reproduction is kind of weird. To selectively breed, you need to isolate spores. This is really difficult, even w/ a microscope. Then after you have single spore (monokaryotic) cultures, you have to introduce them to each other and hope that they are of compatible mating types. There are more than 2 mating types, and I forget just how many there are...

Anyway, that's in a lab setting. If you're some guy who shot up jars and had no growth for 6mo. Then the same jar was shown to be suitable for growth after a second round of spores has been introduced, the logical assumption should be that the first syringe was a dud.

If you're just looking for something different, give it a go. Just make sure you're paying a fair price for spores.

Here's a link to a thread I created on the subject of selectively breeding cubensis. Lots of good info from some devoted people. One day I hope to come back to the to the topic: https://mycotopia.ne...a-group-effort/

Edited by HrVanker, 02 June 2019 - 05:22 PM.

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#4 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 05:29 PM

These don't look like the ones I was thinking of in your other thread.

It's possible that is a genetic mutation, but it could also be chemical contamination (lysol, or other cleaning products). Really the only way to find out is to keep growing them from spores and/or clones to see what happens. Has the OP done this?

I would be interested if he has. The remind me of blue and white turkey-tails!

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#5 Billcoz

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 06:31 PM

Hmm, that is weird shit lol. I doubt the claim of a "cross strain". From what I've read someone would have to isolate individual spores from each and that would be extremely tedious even with proper equipment. The spores selected would have to be genetically compatible to germinate, and not all genetic pairs will even fruit. From what I've read, rattlesnake venom has been used to create "hybrids", here is a quote from someone who claims to have done this, I believe PE6 strain was the result.

"HYBRIDIZATION TECHNIQUE:

Petri dishes of this R7 agar medium are inoculated with mycelium from two different strains of the Cordyceps genus. These different strains when inoculated together onto one petri dish will normally grow towards each other until they almost meet, at which point they form a zone of inhibition, where neither strain can grow. Eventually, one strain may prove stronger than the other and overgrow the plate, but they will remain genetically distinct; two different cultures residing in the same petri dish.

With the addition of a sufficient quantity of snake venom to the agar, we found that what happens is the two cultures grow towards each other until they meet and form their mutual zone of inhibition. This period of inhibition is short lived however, for in only about 2 or 3 hours the colonies each start sending out mycelial strands into this no-mans land, the zone of inhibition. These strands grow together and exchange nuclear material through their venom-weakened cell walls. They form a hybrid strain at this point of mutual contact. A new strain, one that is distinctly different from either of the parent strains. Within about 4 hours after first forming the zone of inhibition, the hybridization is complete and the colonies resume rapid growth towards each other. They become three colonies rather than the original two. There then exist in the same plate the original two colonies and a genetically distinct third…The Hybrid.

A section of the newly formed hybrid is carefully removed from the original zone of inhibition at the precise time that the colonies begin to fuse. That is during hour 3-4 after the initial meeting of the colonies. The hybrid is transferred to a new petri dish containing normal (non-snake venom) agar.
Our quick method of determining hybridization is to inoculate a new dish containing normal agar with all three strains, the original two and the suspected hybrid. If the hybridization has in fact taken place, these are now three distinct colonies, and will form a mutual three-way zone of inhibition. If hybridization has failed to occur, then the suspected hybrid will readily fuse with either one or the other of the original colonies. This proves that our suspected hybrid is not genetically distinct from the original and we start anew.

Once a hybrid is confirmed, it is tested for growth parameters. If it appears to be a vigorous and hardy grower on our substrate of choice, we grow out a quantity of mycelium, harvest it and analyze it for active ingredients. Through repeated testing in this way we were able to create the hybrid strain shown in Plot 6; a hybrid strain that is easily grown in solid substrate culture, with a potency greater than any other cultivated strain and at least equal in potency to the highest quality wild Cordyceps. "


Edited by Billcoz, 02 June 2019 - 06:33 PM.


#6 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 06:48 PM



...snake venom... [/background]


I believe that someone famous in the community (RR, Stamets, etc.) Brought a red-spore cubie back from the dead with snake venom as well. It was used to weaken the spore walls so that if there was ANY viability in these presumed dead spores, they would have a chance.

Using snake venom to hybridize Cordyceps strains is interesting, but I'm not sure it applies to most of what we do. The mushrooms that we play with are in a different phylum than Cordyceps, thus I suspect they reproduce a bit differently. I'll find out later.

My suspicion with cubes, is that there is no point in using venom if you have a monokaryotic (single spore) culture. And if you use it with dikaryotic mycelium, you could end up with some weird stuff... like 3 nuclei in some cells, 1 in others, the wrong numbers of chromosomes, etc. That is, unless there is some force (osmotic pressure, etc) that enforces equivalent exchange of genetic material.

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#7 Billcoz

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:01 PM

 

...snake venom... [/background]


I believe that someone famous in the community (RR, Stamets, etc.) Brought a red-spore cubie back from the dead with snake venom as well. It was used to weaken the spore walls so that if there was ANY viability in these presumed dead spores, they would have a chance.

Using snake venom to hybridize Cordyceps strains is interesting, but I'm not sure it applies to most of what we do. The mushrooms that we play with are in a different phylum than Cordyceps, thus I suspect they reproduce a bit differently. I'll find out later.

My suspicion with cubes, is that there is no point in using venom if you have a monokaryotic (single spore) culture. And if you use it with dikaryotic mycelium, you could end up with some weird stuff... like 3 nuclei in some cells, 1 in others, the wrong numbers of chromosomes, etc. That is, unless there is some force (osmotic pressure, etc) that enforces equivalent exchange of genetic material.

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I think that was the technique used to create PE6, or one of the PEs, can't remember the whole story.



#8 Akari

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:46 PM

Did some more research. The guy made the cultures himself!

#9 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:47 PM

Did some more research. The guy made the cultures himself!

Any info on how? Has he grown a generation or two past whatever event caused the "mutation?"

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#10 Akari

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 07:56 PM

This will be the enigma thread, I was added to the group. I'll share all I learn with you guys. If I get a culture, I'll do a full thread, but that'll be in the distant future.
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#11 jkdeth

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:16 PM

Hybrids within cubensis aren't unobtainable, just advanced. PE6 was a hybrid. AA+ was a hybrid. Mikeys ARX is a hybrid. Pastywhyte from that "other" site created a hybrid called Rusty Whyte.

However, concerning the thing presented as enigma, nah. Just screwed up genetics. I'd trash anything that looked like that.

#12 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:23 PM

Hybrids within cubensis aren't unobtainable, just advanced. PE6 was a hybrid. AA+ was a hybrid. Mikeys ARX is a hybrid. Pastywhyte from that "other" site created a hybrid called Rusty Whyte.

However, concerning the thing presented as enigma, nah. Just screwed up genetics. I'd trash anything that looked like that.

Out of curiosity, why throw it out? Keeping it as a pet project to see what it does over time sounds like fun.

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#13 Akari

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:25 PM

They've reproduced multiple generations. They've been eaten. They have the potency of PE. The "strain" never stabilized, so the fruits genetics are unpredictable. There's a whole community of guys growin em though. All from the single progenitor and his friends. The weird fruit has been cloned through at least 7 generations, though sometimes it produces PE or B+. That's all I know now. It's entirely experimental.

#14 jkdeth

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 08:31 PM

I just wouldn't propagate obvious damaged genetics. And I don't believe its a hybrid.

#15 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 09:00 PM

I just wouldn't propagate obvious damaged genetics. And I don't believe its a hybrid.

I don't know about OP, but I think the rest of us are on the same page regarding hybridization. And with the new info about it producing B+ or APE from clones, it sounds more like the different mycelial colonies were tangled up in the original grow, not hybrids.

Sure the genetics are not stable, and it doesn't produce anything like we've seen before. But that doesn't make it harmful. PE, APE, Albino fruits, cristate cacti, etc. Could all have been construed as damaged genetics.

Actually, these monstrosities do remind me of cristate deformation.

Edit: Method of growing future generations wasn't actually mentioned. Clone? MS? Both?

Edited by HrVanker, 02 June 2019 - 09:03 PM.


#16 jkdeth

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 09:19 PM

Honestly I'm on the fence believing any of it. And honestly PE genetics are trashed. They don't perform like they did 15 or so years ago. ( give or take a few years). PE6 was a hybrid, attempting to improve the genetics.
I like albinos, but really I haven't seen a true albino yet. If it produced a spore print, it isn't albino. Its Luecistic. And that's just a color change.
I won't grow PE either. I might grow PE6.
I'm assuming anyone who thinks progating this is perfectly fine, also has no issue with GMOs or lab grown meat.

#17 HrVanker

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Posted 02 June 2019 - 09:33 PM

Honestly I'm on the fence believing any of it. And honestly PE genetics are trashed. They don't perform like they did 15 or so years ago. ( give or take a few years). PE6 was a hybrid, attempting to improve the genetics.
I like albinos, but really I haven't seen a true albino yet. If it produced a spore print, it isn't albino. Its Luecistic. And that's just a color change.
I won't grow PE either. I might grow PE6.
I'm assuming anyone who thinks progating this is perfectly fine, also has no issue with GMOs or lab grown meat.

I'm making a thread about my GMO feelings, so as not to hijack this thread.

But in short: My issues with GMOs are far more legal/business related than consumption concerns.

And this mushroom might actually be a natural occurrence. Like every mutation that brought us from a single cell organism to whatever we are today. We are a product of millions of years of genetic modification, at the mercy of happenstance.

Edit: I had a syringe of APE from sporedepot I believe. No color to the spores/gills. No visible spores whatsoever.

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Edited by HrVanker, 02 June 2019 - 09:38 PM.


#18 joeya

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 07:18 AM

The best information I've come across on how to cross shrooms was a post on here some years back from workman, the driving force behind one of the best spore suppliers out there. It's is archived at https://mycotopia.ne...oomspsilocybin/   

 

Although advanced, it seems to require more caution than any unique particular skill. I plan of giving it a try in the near future myself. 


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#19 HrVanker

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 08:14 PM

The best information I've come across on how to cross shrooms was a post on here some years back from workman, the driving force behind one of the best spore suppliers out there. It's is archived at https://mycotopia.ne...oomspsilocybin/

Although advanced, it seems to require more caution than any unique particular skill. I plan of giving it a try in the near future myself.

Here is a very pertinent and interesting post from Joeya's linked thread (it's very long):
Spoiler


And it disproves some of my notions about mushrooms all together! This would have come in handy way back when Cats and I were arguing about how genetically distinct colonies in an MS grow interact!

Edited by HrVanker, 03 June 2019 - 08:21 PM.

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#20 coorsmikey

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 08:37 PM

 

The best information I've come across on how to cross shrooms was a post on here some years back from workman, the driving force behind one of the best spore suppliers out there. It's is archived at https://mycotopia.ne...oomspsilocybin/

Although advanced, it seems to require more caution than any unique particular skill. I plan of giving it a try in the near future myself.

Here is a very pertinent and interesting post from Joeya's linked thread (it's very long):
Spoiler


And it disproves some of my notions about mushrooms all together! This would have come in handy way back when Cats and I were arguing about how genetically distinct colonies in an MS grow interact!

 

Aaaaannnnnnd then someone throws a wrench in the spokes. https://mycotopia.ne...01#entry1337101


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