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GMOs and why they aren't inherently evil


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#21 Juthro

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 01:07 AM

Occurs to me if the argument is just what's inherently evil, then neither is glyphosate. There's as much evidence that it kills cancer cells as there is that it causes cancer.

 

Do I think more studies should be done, yes,  Do I agree with the above statement, no.

 

https://ehp.niehs.ni...0.1289/ehp.7340


Edited by Juthro, 09 June 2019 - 01:09 AM.


#22 jkdeth

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 03:36 AM

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC3749059/

#23 Myc

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 10:15 AM

Genetic modification is just a bad idea. 

Mankind has become quite clever at making novel materials which do not exist in nature - ( i.e. - Plastics). Now that we've had plastics for a few years...........what's the problem?  :dry:

Nevermind what we've learned from that. Let's move on to making novel chemicals which do not exist in nature - ( i.e. - methamphetamine, basified cocaine, bath salts, anti-depressants and other pharmaceuticals, ...).  Now that we've had these marvelous chemicals in the mainstream for a few years..............what's the problem?  :dry:

 

Based upon a cursory study of the above information.........

Now, let's take genes and splice them together making an novel organism which would never have naturally occurred .........

What could go wrong?


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#24 Juthro

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:25 AM

 

 

I'm not the only one who doesn't believe that Monsanto sponsored research.

 

Germany, France, Belgium, Columbia, Netherlands, Bermuda.... the list goes on.  All these countries have implemented bans on using glyphosate, because they believe that it causes cancer.

 

But if you think poor Monsanto is getting the short end of the stick here, please feel free to support them by putting as much round up in your morning coffee as you see fit, but none for me thank you.


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#25 HrVanker

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:35 AM

Funny how we all pretty much believe the same things on this [broadening] topic, yet we still gotta peck at each other.

Most of us have only slightly different views, or slightly broader mindsets, but we've basically all denounced Monsanto and/or glyphosate in one way or another.

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Edited by HrVanker, 09 June 2019 - 11:36 AM.


#26 Cuboid

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 12:06 PM

On the subject of whether glyphosate causes cancer or cures cancer: The difference between medicine and poison is almost always dosage.
Methotrexate is a very common anticancer drug. Should healthy individuals be exposed to it by spraying it on our food? (Rhetorical question, I hope that was obvious).

Look into DDT, IIRC it has a rather nonlinear dose response curve where levels much lower than those considered safe turn out to be not safe. I think it had something to do with being to low to trigger the bodies protective mechanics but chronic low level exposure still did damage.

(Edit: spelling)

Edited by Cuboid, 09 June 2019 - 03:22 PM.

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#27 Alder Logs

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 12:16 PM

DDT, like many toxins, bioaccumulates as it goes up the food chain.   We shouldn't forget this, as we must function to some degree as biological entities.  Even if fully spiritually realized, there's still these damned bodies to consider in the holistic view if we want at all to sustain the ride for ourselves and the species with which we interrelatedly share this planet. 


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#28 jkdeth

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 02:47 PM

Didn't really mean to turn it to glyphosate discussion. Overall I'm with the anti pesticide team. I just hope we realize that we live in an agenda propaganda driven world. You're not likely to hear objective viewpoints based on facts either way. Most of it profit based.

But its the same with GMO crops. People get angry and emotional and nothing gets gets actually learned.
I've been against GMOs since I saw the lies they told to get the products on the market. We were told that Round Ready soybeans were sterile, they would not cross pollinate and did not produce viable seed. (Another kind of bad, but that's a whole other thing).
That was a lie. They do cross pollinate and the harvested soybeans will grow. They don't well enough, but they do reproduce. Here's where the evil control bit comes in. When you purchase and plant those, your farm is licensed to do so. And they have an identifiable thermal signal. Aerial photography can identify a field of Round up ready soybeans.
Which brings up the question why? Why would they even be prepared to that? Because they knew they were lying about viability.
Now the problem is, they can cross pollinate with fields of non gmo soybeans. And now that field identifies as the Monsanto product in those aerial photographs. Monsanto then identifies you as an unlicensed farm and goes after you with huge fines.
I've seen all that first hand. In the late 90s.

Now when I say the harvested will grow, they don't grow well enough to produce a crop. That's the other issue. The downfall of that control factor. We're fast on the path to reliance on the corporate monster to provide seeds for our food. Not only is it bad practice in general, if that fails, even right now, you'll see famine. With a focused effort we could probably get out from under that in a couple generations.

Very hard to do though. Those horrible round up ready soybeans, they yield easy 3 times the crop, with less expense and less work.
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#29 Alder Logs

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 03:32 PM

The "biotoxin" gene engineered into corn so that it makes the intestines of insects fall to pieces came before epidemic leaky gut syndrome in humans.  In whose quarterly economic report interest will it be to find out if it's a factor?  Meanwhile, that corn will be fed to every kind of meat/milk/egg source going, and likely will be in your tortillas, and it will be more than a few collaterally damaged butterflies and bees that will join the ranks of the uninformed non-consenting. 


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#30 jkdeth

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 03:43 PM

Love me some corn tortillas.

But yes I think we've really destroyed food quality at the very least.

If you talk to old chefs/cooks/bakers I think they'll confirm it. Standard off the shelf flour does not perform the way it did 40 years ago. What's available today is a substandard product.

#31 Juthro

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 07:26 PM

Didn't really mean to turn it to glyphosate discussion. Overall I'm with the anti pesticide team. I just hope we realize that we live in an agenda propaganda driven world. You're not likely to hear objective viewpoints based on facts either way. Most of it profit based.

But its the same with GMO crops. People get angry and emotional and nothing gets gets actually learned.
 

 

I'm sorry, but I dont think your argument rings true from both directions.

 

How does someone with an anti GMO stance not have an objective position here?.   Do you think not wanting food that has been genetically modified in a lab, and coated with pesticides is a radical propaganda driven stance?  And how do you feel that there is any chance of profit for taking an anti GMO stance?

 

And yes, admittedly I do get angry, and emotional when people tell me there is just as much proof roundup in my food will do me good as harm.   I have to think you must have been trolling with that statement, because I can't fathom an educated human buying into that. 



#32 jkdeth

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 07:49 PM

Proves my point. Can't be angry emotional and objective. And I'm just discussing. You've become antagonist and insulting.
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#33 Juthro

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 08:55 PM

First off, you don't get to discount my opinion just because I can get emotional.  That is as ridiculous as sayings glyphosate has medicinal properties. 

 

It's not personal, and I'm sorry if you feel I've insulted you.  Sometimes I go overboard, but again its not personal.   But for the record I also found the nature of your 'discussing' somewhat insulting.

 

This is a subject I take seriously, and I'm not going to keep my opinion to myself when its being discussed.

 

I'm not telling you to not express your thoughts or opinions.  But if your going to post something as controversial as saying glyphosate is as beneficial  as harmful when ingested by humans, you should expect some push back on that.

 

I like you brother, and I respect you, but that doesn't mean I'm going to agree with you.

 

 

 



#34 jkdeth

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Posted 09 June 2019 - 11:42 PM

I never discounted an opinion. Nor did call anything you said stupid, or trolling, or important you were uneducated.

Glyohosate may cause cancer. But that's the entire fact. There's no science that proves it does in fact cause cancer. Only that it may, and should be further studied.

Glyphosate may also kill cancer. That also is the entire fact. The no science that proves it will ever be an effective cancer drug, only that it may and needs further study.

That's what I said before.
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#35 crazy1

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 07:59 AM

Well, has anyone in this conversation thought about why Monsanto sold the Round Up patent/gene and all to Bayer just a year before all of these lawsuits started? They knew what they were in for.

 

I have farmed my whole life, and I'm just shy of 50 now. And I remember when Round Up came out. Before then if you could get 55 bushels to the acre you were king of the hill. Now, if with all these "great" modifications, you're not getting 200+ bushels an acre you can't survive. Now that's with corn only. 

They have made modifications to soy beans as well. Problem to bumping yields up is they can't find the gene that aborts pods. I have seen some genetic modifications in seeds TOTALLY fail with massive crop loss. And hence a farmer going out of business and losing it all. 

 

We are on our way to going out of business because of big corporate farms, rising costs of inputs and the total lack of prices keeping up with the market. This is all because of the control over our food chain. As well as the total control over the growers.

 

The new Liberty Link herbicide is the next new greatest bestest thing!!!! And now there's been gene modification to have corn and beans Round Up and Liberty Link ready. And the saga continues...............

 

This has been and I know will continue to be a great thread. And as a producer on a larger scale, we HAD to use these products or go under. And at the time, we had no idea of these bad outcomes.

 

Guys, this is government control at its finest.

 

Now as some are moving towards Non-GMO type seeds things could change for a very small portion. But with the costs of everything going up at insane rates in some cases, these crops will have limited market and income. Yes, we all want the best for ourselves and families, but what happens when the cost is way out of our reach to get it?

 

Just firgured I'd add a little more for thought into this great conversation

 

Peace



#36 HrVanker

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 10:40 AM



Well, has anyone in this conversation thought about why Monsanto sold the Round Up patent/gene and all to Bayer just a year before all of these lawsuits started? They knew what they were in for.

Well, yeah... CYA.

Which is dumb that it's a legitimate strategy. If I shot someone today and sold my gun tomorrow... Somehow I feel like I'd still be investigated when the Police show up to ask questions.

As for soy bean aborts, is it a gene? Perhaps they can't process nutrients fast enough to support such a large load. Or perhaps they need more nutrients to support the large load. I'm not discounting the losses farms have taken, rather, the developer of such plants should have an idea before putting it to market... due diligence? Lol

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#37 Alder Logs

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 11:27 AM

Better living through chemistry (and gene splicing).  If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, there's no telling what it is.   But, it's probably someone's intellectual property.  I just keep thinking about the book: Edgar Cayce On Atlantis.


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#38 HrVanker

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 11:34 AM

Better living through chemistry (and gene splicing). If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, there's no telling what it is. But, it's probably someone's intellectual property. I just keep thinking about the book: Edgar Cayce On Atlantis.

I haven't heard of that book, but I'll make an educated guess that the game BioShock is loosely based on it: Scientist founds an underwater city for fellow scientists to conduct experiments with the interference of Gov't. Then gene splicing and other modifications happen, and all hell breaks loose.

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#39 Alder Logs

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 11:43 AM

The book: https://www.scribd.c...ON-ATLANTIS-pdf

 

The Edgar Cayce readings: https://www.bibliote...esp_cayce_3.htm



#40 Juthro

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Posted 10 June 2019 - 01:55 PM

I never discounted an opinion. Nor did call anything you said stupid, or trolling, or important you were uneducated.

Glyohosate may cause cancer. But that's the entire fact. There's no science that proves it does in fact cause cancer. Only that it may, and should be further studied.

Glyphosate may also kill cancer. That also is the entire fact. The no science that proves it will ever be an effective cancer drug, only that it may and needs further study.

That's what I said before.

 

Remember the  context. This is a thread about GMO's, and we were discussing the fact that the commercial purpose of most  GMOs is to let the basic foods at the start of the food chain be coated with toxic chemicals, like glyphosate.  

 

My point being that even if glyphosate was found to have some real clinical use (and I don't think it will), that it doesn't discount the fact that it is also a likely carcinogen. 

 

The context of your statement, given where it was, seemed to not only to support the GMO's, but to accept the fact that we are dosing the entire population, newborn to geriatric, with potential cancer causing chemicals  as OK, due to a potential niche medical benefit.






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