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drying and long-term storage protocol


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#1 ilikethings

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:12 PM

Drying and Storage:

 

I've been experimenting with various drying and storage methods.  The thought being to develop a long term storage protocol.  I've been in the new vaults looking around.  I picked up a Presto brand dehydrator.  I would generally slice or tear the fruits in half and place in dehydrator until "cracker dry."  and I placed a qp of fruit into ziplock bag after dehydration.  They have been stored like that for almost a year and kept well.  But I was still concerned about leakage with the ziplock so I picked up a Seal-a-Meal brand vacuum sealer.  It seems to have worked well so far. 

Here is where I'm at now. 

 

After harvesting fruits I place them on paper plates with fan for 24 hours (in an air conditioned room, i.e. removing moisture from air).  I then place them in dehydrator for 30-60mins (my unit does not have a temp control but I leave all the extra trays in to help space out the fruit from heat source and add open volume).  Then I place them in box with damp rid.  And here is where I come to the question(s).  I have read of people using damp-rid in two ways.  First is to simply place the "crystals" in a bowl and dispose of them as they become saturated or disappear (I'd like to see pictures of this).  Second is to place the "crystals" in a stocking (or sock as I did) and hang that stocking above a bowl so that as it becomes saturated with H2O, it drips into the bowl. 

 

When I have seen the "stocking over a bowl method" for removing moisture in basements, the stocking will eventually appear to have a covering of liquid water that drips into the bowl below.  In this bin pictured below, the sock has not yielded visible water (after 24 hours) but the fruits feel fully dry to the touch; very firm and crack with a nice snap sound.

 

Thoughts?

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#2 CatsAndBats

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:16 PM

Drying and Storage:

 

I've been experimenting with various drying and storage methods.  The thought being to develop a long term storage protocol.  I've been in the new vaults looking around.  I picked up a Presto brand dehydrator.  I would generally slice or tear the fruits in half and place in dehydrator until "cracker dry."  and I placed a qp of fruit into ziplock bag after dehydration.  They have been stored like that for almost a year and kept well.  But I was still concerned about leakage with the ziplock so I picked up a Seal-a-Meal brand vacuum sealer.  It seems to have worked well so far. 

Here is where I'm at now. 

 

After harvesting fruits I place them on paper plates with fan for 24 hours (in an air conditioned room, i.e. removing moisture from air).  I then place them in dehydrator for 30-60mins (my unit does not have a temp control but I leave all the extra trays in to help space out the fruit from heat source and add open volume).  Then I place them in box with damp rid.  And here is where I come to the question(s).  I have read of people using damp-rid in two ways.  First is to simply place the "crystals" in a bowl and dispose of them as they become saturated or disappear (I'd like to see pictures of this).  Second is to place the "crystals" in a stocking (or sock as I did) and hang that stocking above a bowl so that as it becomes saturated with H2O, it drips into the bowl. 

 

When I have seen the "stocking over a bowl method" for removing moisture in basements, the stocking will eventually appear to have a covering of liquid water that drips into the bowl below.  In this bin pictured below, the sock has not yielded visible water (after 24 hours) but the fruits feel fully dry to the touch; very firm and crack with a nice snap sound.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

I have an upside down crate with a damprid tub underneath and then put my dehydrator on top of that.


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#3 jkdeth

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 07:50 PM

Kinda way over done dude. Just dehydrator till cracker dry. The vacuum sealer is a good idea. Zip lock do always leak.
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#4 CatsAndBats

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 09:08 PM

Kinda way over done dude. Just dehydrator till cracker dry. The vacuum sealer is a good idea. Zip lock do always leak.

 

Are you discouraging the OP from being efficient and from experimenting?


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#5 jkdeth

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 10:12 PM

Nope. Experiment away. In one sense any combination of the above mentioned methods will get them to dry. The only thing that may make a difference is time. I feel most efficient is the fastest method that gets them to cracker dry.

I have fanned dried while waiting for the dehydrator to finish a batch.
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#6 peacefrog

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 04:47 AM

I have used both dehydrators and fan to desiccant chsmber methods in the past.

The dehydrator method is the quickest but fan drying for 2-3 days or until rubbery dry, then desiccant chamber to finish them off, works just as well IME.

As far as the desiccant crystals getting full of water, it will happen overtime. But as long as you have the fruit pretty darn dried before placing them in the chamber, it will take a few batches before this happens. If you stick in freshly harvested fruit in a desiccant chamber, then they will fill with water very fast and will form a hard block on the surface that will not absorb anymore. Until you remove that layer and/or replace with fresh desiccant, you are pissing in the wind.
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#7 roc

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 09:37 AM

Are you peeps using heat on your dehydrators to dry?



#8 CatsAndBats

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 10:17 AM

Are you peeps using heat on your dehydrators to dry?

 

Yup. I have one like the OP, no temp control. I clocked it at ~150 with my infrared thermometer. The damp rid underneath seems to take about an hour off my dry time.



#9 mad420pumpkinz

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 02:24 PM

I just went to put some dehydrated shrooms into my jar of aborts lil stuff and the shrooms already in the jar were moist and a gettin squishy..the oxygen absorbers didnt work...no more dessicant pack around either...
Threw everything back in the dehydrater.... Any tips? My jar w 1.5oz and silica packs etc is fine

#10 jkdeth

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 02:32 PM

With no other option stick em in the freezer. I'd imagine if its just aborts and such you're gonna eat those babies as soon as you get an appropriate amount. Thing about O2 absorbers is they require a certain level of moisture to work, but they don't do much to maintain a dry environment.

#11 roc

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 05:23 PM

I just went to put some dehydrated shrooms into my jar of aborts lil stuff and the shrooms already in the jar were moist and a gettin squishy..the oxygen absorbers didnt work...no more dessicant pack around either...
Threw everything back in the dehydrater.... Any tips? My jar w 1.5oz and silica packs etc is fine

The little 2 gram desiccant paks I use can be thrown in the oven or microwave and dried or recharged as they call it.

Use them over and over again.


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#12 Commienerd

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 10:54 PM

I've dried them before and zip locked them (now I have a foodsaver), but they would eventually stop being magic. It was weird. What's the typical shelf life of dried magic mushrooms?

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#13 ilikethings

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 08:50 PM

Thanks for all the feed back, input, and discussion!

 

@CatsAndBats: I like the vertical design you describe for a small footprint drying system.  I noticed when I would use electric dehydrator the dried fruits would some time come out with odd yellow bruising.  They were still effective.  Nice to learn that your IR test came out at 150f.

 

@peacefrog: I too have found that pre-drying with fan till rubbery (or even post-rubbery if done in a room with modern air conditioning) helps in whether you send them to either an electric dehydrator or a chem.-dehydro for crispy finishing.

 

@jkdeth: I agree it may be overdone.  I’m still working out the details!

 

I am trying to keep some fruits in a dehydration-limbo where they are in a chamber and become dehydrated but are not removed and placed in long term storage until all the fruits from the lot of cakes have been gathered.  The purpose of which is to gather hard base-line data for future nutrient tests.


Edited by ilikethings, 02 July 2019 - 08:58 PM.


#14 mad420pumpkinz

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 03:19 AM

I posted in my grow thread but then remembered this thread.
I got these..but are they safe to keep in with the shrooms (already dried of course)
7cd1bc749733ff2d936aba4697328306.jpg9551f30f89830b9474257448aa1d2859.jpg

#15 Jinroh

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 08:04 AM

Nice thread guys,
I ended up here searching for information on hot vs. cold dehydration. I have been reading so many different opinions on this subject (not just on this site). I am lucky enough to have a commercial-grade dehydrator that can cold or hot dehydrate with very fine heat controls that can adjust to within one degree F. The information I am trying to find is if the heat degrades the potency of the fungi. Some opinions I have read say the heat speeds up the degradation of the chemicals so cool is better. Other ideas indicate heat is ok, and the faster the shroom is dried, the more stable the chemicals become since they dried quickly. So basically I am going in circles here.


Edited by Jinroh, 23 August 2019 - 08:05 AM.


#16 Mush2Learn

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 10:23 PM

Nice thread guys,
I ended up here searching for information on hot vs. cold dehydration. I have been reading so many different opinions on this subject (not just on this site). I am lucky enough to have a commercial-grade dehydrator that can cold or hot dehydrate with very fine heat controls that can adjust to within one degree F. The information I am trying to find is if the heat degrades the potency of the fungi. Some opinions I have read say the heat speeds up the degradation of the chemicals so cool is better. Other ideas indicate heat is ok, and the faster the shroom is dried, the more stable the chemicals become since they dried quickly. So basically I am going in circles here.

I did a lot of reading on this as well, decided to use heat. I use about 120-130 mostly because I don't want to heat my house too much. I think upwards of 165 (common dehydrator temps) is totally safe.

I came to this conclusion because it's the side that seemed to have the best scientific backing. Psilocybin and psilocin don't start breaking down until over 300 degrees F from what I've read, but oxidation occurs with moisture. So logically 165 degrees doesn't hurt the actives, and results in a quicker dry, thereby reducing the amount of time the dying cells are influenced by moisture. The argument for a no heat dry seems to be based on older more anecdotal information. Read and research and make your decision..

I have only used heat to dry, so can't say if my fungus would be better dried any other way, but it is still very potent and is better than any fungus I've bought at any time. So I will continue using a heated dehydrator for my drying.

That being said I used a desiccant identical to the one with pictures above for storage. Dry &dry brand, ordered on Amazon. It was cheap, comes in small packets. And can be "recharged for multiple uses by putting it in the oven or microwave. I don't have a microwave so I plan on researching my packs by dehydrating them in my dehydrator.

Edited by Mush2Learn, 23 August 2019 - 10:28 PM.

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#17 Jinroh

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Posted 23 August 2019 - 10:51 PM

 

Nice thread guys,
I ended up here searching for information on hot vs. cold dehydration. I have been reading so many different opinions on this subject (not just on this site). I am lucky enough to have a commercial-grade dehydrator that can cold or hot dehydrate with very fine heat controls that can adjust to within one degree F. The information I am trying to find is if the heat degrades the potency of the fungi. Some opinions I have read say the heat speeds up the degradation of the chemicals so cool is better. Other ideas indicate heat is ok, and the faster the shroom is dried, the more stable the chemicals become since they dried quickly. So basically I am going in circles here.

I did a lot of reading on this as well, decided to use heat. I use about 120-130 mostly because I don't want to heat my house too much. I think upwards of 165 (common dehydrator temps) is totally safe.

I came to this conclusion because it's the side that seemed to have the best scientific backing. Psilocybin and psilocin don't start breaking down until over 300 degrees F from what I've read, but oxidation occurs with moisture. So logically 165 degrees doesn't hurt the actives, and results in a quicker dry, thereby reducing the amount of time the dying cells are influenced by moisture. The argument for a no heat dry seems to be based on older more anecdotal information. Read and research and make your decision..

I have only used heat to dry, so can't say if my fungus would be better dried any other way, but it is still very potent and is better than any fungus I've bought at any time. So I will continue using a heated dehydrator for my drying.

That being said I used a desiccant identical to the one with pictures above for storage. Dry &dry brand, ordered on Amazon. It was cheap, comes in small packets. And can be "recharged for multiple uses by putting it in the oven or microwave. I don't have a microwave so I plan on researching my packs by dehydrating them in my dehydrator.

 

 

I agree. Most of the recent information I have read indicates hot dehydration is the way to go if available. And the oxidation via moisture is the real enemy of the chemical. I have done more research on the alkaloids themselves more than the mushrooms. Once I get my growing technique perfected (a year or so down the line), I plan to extract and crystalize the chemicals and stabilize them from oxidation. I will do this with HPMC (Hypromellose) capsules which are 300 times more resistant to moisture than gelatin capsules. I also plan to mix in a little magnesium oxide to the crystals as a desiccant. Then store the caps in a vacuum container in my freezer. That should keep for several weeks. (I hope). I want to do this mainly to avoid stomach upset and reduce the amount of mass that I will need to consume. For the time being, I will take them the time tested way of tea. The process of crystallization is not nearly as complicated as I thought it would be. In my case, the hardest part is obtaining 200 proof UN-denatured grain alcohol. I know I can get by with 190 proof Everclear, but that is not sold in my state. Funny thing is I found the 200 proof right on eBay. LOL
It is not cheap, but neither is most alcohols of that strength.

 


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#18 ilikethings

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 12:58 AM

I have updated my drying and long term storage protocol.  I now only use the box fan prior to dehydrator where I am waiting for more fruits to harvest the following day or two to fill one or two full trays in dehydrator. 

 

The fan seems to reduce moisture content by at least 50 – 60% in one day (and up to 75% by day 2...or whatever the humidity level of the space they are in) and I have noticed no issue with potency when leaving fruits in front of fan for a day or two while waiting for slower fruits to finish out the flush/fill a dehydrator tray.  If the fruits go directly from cake to dehydrator, I find it takes at least 2hrs to become cracker dry.  I then place in the pictured “damp rid” box until a sufficient amount accrues for long-term storage in a vacuum sealed bag.

 

I have been experimenting with the pictured gelcaps.  I’m very intrigued by the Hypromellose capsules described by Jinroh.  What I can say is that the gelcaps don’t like to be touched by bare hands while filling (use gloves) but they take noticeably longer for stomach acid to break down.  The caps delay the onset by an additional 25 minutes.  So expect to wait 45min instead of the normal 20min onset with just powdered fruits mixed in liquid.

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#19 Calba

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 08:54 AM

Is there any evidence that time spent in the fridge rather than a box fan reduces the potency if both end up in a dehydrator in the end anyway in order to get them cracker dry?

I'm just wondering if them being in the box fan while waiting for the rest of the flush to finish is a necessary step and any superior on terms of potency to simply refrigerating them?

Given their destiny is the dehydrator anyway?

Hope that made sense.

#20 ilikethings

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Posted 25 August 2019 - 11:07 AM

Well I can't speak with regard to potency per se, I nonetheless think that little to none of the actives will be lost in either short-term storage/stasis.  I can say that you should do something to reduce moisture content of the harvested fruits while waiting for the rest of fruits to be ready to harvest--where you are waiting for a full dehydrator load.  If you just leave freshly harvested fruits out in a room with little to no air movement, those fruits will start to rot and turn all mushy.  The reason I suggested placing them in front of a continuously running fan over the fridge is because I don't think the fridge does anything to reduce the moisture content--it merely keeps them cool and will slow down the decay/rotting process. 

 

Although a fridge works on a similar principle as an air conditioner, the actual fridge chamber is not having the humidity removed like that of a room with air conditioning.  We have all seen fresh mushrooms kept in fridges in general commerce but since your end goal to dry for longer storage, keeping them in front of a fan will accomplish the same thing as fridge but with the added benefit of reducing much of the moisture prior to dehydrating--meaning that you will not need to run the dehydrator as long--that is unless you are mixing the earlier fruits with the fresh picked fruits and placing them all in dehydrator immediately after harvesting the final fruits from the flush.  Doing that would still require the full dehydrator session.

 

Another option I have used is to place the fruits your intending to keep in stasis on a tray and place against a south facing window.  The sunlight will remove a lot of moisture.  and placing a fan by them in addition to the sunlight will get them pretty damn dry in a couple days.  Or if your super concerned about it, just bite the bullet and run the dehydrator with a partial load.  Be sure to plan ahead in terms of the actual storage method post-dehydration.  That is the issue that cause me some anxiety, i.e. the dehydrated fruits will rapidly (over several hours) become re-hydrated when exposed to humid air and then the decay process/chance of mold attack starts back up.  I highly recommend a vacuum sealer.  A lot of these drying and storage issues are also geographically relative.  I used to be in a place with very high humidity but in locations with less humid air, it may not be such an issue.

 

I hope this helps!


Edited by ilikethings, 25 August 2019 - 11:13 AM.

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