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We Need Political Discussion, Not Partisan Division


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#1 Alder Logs

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 11:01 AM

No one has the whole picture, and what the political landscape is at any moment, in any era, is never seen from any single vantage.  Even completion of a university course isn't going to present an omniscient understanding.  The thing about partisans is, they must win allies and create adherents to their causes, about which they themselves may not be fully cognizant.   To the partisan, winning alone often becomes their drive. 

 

We here at Mycotopia opened religious and political discussion when we declared ourselves to be adults, having interests close to our hearts, beside those of our hobbies.   We saw that as a community we needed more to be wholly human in our expression.  So, we took the risk that we could open areas of discussion previously closed to us.  Closed by what?  Maybe it was a fear we might fail to conduct ourselves as respectful adults, and so, accepted rules as if we were children.  

 

For myself, doddering through this world I see, I want to know where I came from, and how I got to where I am now, knowing I didn't get here alone as a single individual expression of human life.  All the expressions created the totality of a world society.  How we did that is politics.   If I could choose a politics of my liking, it would be one that tended toward ending the kinds of divisions that could bring us to trying to eliminate each other over ideas.  

 

How we get our ideas becomes of great interest for me.   There are forces that have ideas of controlling what ideas will be allowed, and these controls are overt and covert.  And in that, what we don't know can hurt us.

 

Therefor, let us here and now strive to know what we can, even about forces which would choose to remain hidden.   When we start to try to fathom an unseen hand, let us not call each other, "conspiracy theorists," as even this term was popularized by conspirators wanting to remain unseen.   If we want anything approaching a democratic republic, the democratic part cannot work with power wielded from the darkness of secrecy.    Institutionalized secrecy is ruling the day, and the political theater becomes just that, a show for the masses.

 

The questions will be, who rules, and how?   Can we have this discussion? 

 

I would like to start here:

 

Who Rules the United States of America?

 

Part 1

[Direct Link]

 

Part 2


[Direct Link]


Edited by Alder Logs, 04 July 2019 - 11:20 AM.

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#2 Juthro

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 12:23 PM

I am willing to accept discussion, but I won't change my opinion of the current administration.   I think they are in office by illegitimate means, I feel they are unjust, corrupt, and are immoral without conscious.  These are not things that I am undecided on, these are things that I bring from deep in my core.  The chances of changing my opinion on these core beliefs is zero, and when I feel my core beliefs are under attack, my first reaction is to attack back.

 

So basically I'm saying I accept your bid to talk about it, and I will try and behave in a civil manner. But I have doubt about your ability to keep it non partisan when people are divided as deeply on the issues as they are.

 

post-136504-0-58253800-1562261019.jpg

AADEvty.jpg


Edited by Juthro, 04 July 2019 - 12:24 PM.

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#3 Alder Logs

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 12:35 PM

Even if the question is not whether Trump is an asshole, there is something else to consider, and that's how we got here.   The power of the two party system didn't stop it, but somehow made it happen.  The discussion in the videos above happened in the previous time a teevee star became president.   GE and Twenty Mule Team Borax, or their corporate ownership, got their mouthpiece, a one time union leader (Screen Actor's Guild), convert to corrupt capital and inside dealing, to the top of the heap.  The question isn't who the owners of two corporation were, but maybe how many corporations the same board members shared the tables of?   If we fail to see how power works the system, creates the system, we will continue to be bent over fifty five gallon barrels.   That's my opinion here.   Where is our effective in into a politics that changes the system that gives us such poor choices?   That might not be an easy question, but not getting a functional answer will guarantee we will have only the choice of getting used to our barrel.


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#4 Juthro

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 12:51 PM

I see your point, and respect it, Alder.  It is quite valid, and it needs addressed.  BUT, I feel it is more academic right at this point, as I'm more immediately concerned on how to deal with, and stop the humanitarian atrocities that this administration is committing, and those they are still trying to commit.


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#5 CatsAndBats

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 01:11 PM

I'm not making any promises.

 

post-147940-0-23449700-1562263844.gif

 

Hahaha!

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#6 roc

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 01:17 PM

Enjoy yourselves my friends!

 

I'll let you knock yourself out with this subject and hope someone has the time to moderate it as to not run off our visitors and new members.

 

I come to 'Topia for other reasons and it's nothing to do with polly ticks partisan or not.

 

We all have a choice and it'll keep these types of discussions to face to face relationships or forums dedicated to polly ticks.

 

Peace


Edited by roc, 04 July 2019 - 01:18 PM.

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#7 Thacan

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 02:12 PM

“Maybe each human being lives in a unique world, a private world different from those inhabited and experienced by all other humans. . . If reality differs from person to person, can we speak of reality singular, or shouldn't we really be talking about plural realities? And if there are plural realities, are some more true (more real) than others? What about the world of a schizophrenic? Maybe it's as real as our world. Maybe we cannot say that we are in touch with reality and he is not, but should instead say, His reality is so different from ours that he can't explain his to us, and we can't explain ours to him. The problem, then, is that if subjective worlds are experienced too differently, there occurs a breakdown in communication ... and there is the real illness.”

Philip K. Dick

"What you are seeing and hearing right now is nothing but a dream."

Don Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements


Edited by Thacan, 04 July 2019 - 02:13 PM.

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#8 Alder Logs

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 03:22 PM

My purpose here is not to settle the differences between TDS and TAS (Trump Derangement Syndrome and Trump Adoration Syndrome), but to find a mechanism which will hopefully not allow such a situation to arise again.   There are ways to see how we got here, but we can't let a perception of our particular here blind us.  We can't do anything without a historical grounding beyond, "the Russians did it!"  

 

The Democratic Party, with their friends in the media, tried to pull a fast one, or a few fast ones.  The leadership stacked the deck against its own populist candidate, one it desperately did not want in the first place, and pushed one particular candidate from the other party, believing even the worst candidate they could put forward (one with a verifiable record of criminality and corruption), and even if cheating was the only way to have that candidate, they could not possibly lose.  Well, they were not only corrupt cheats, but in the end, they were disastrously wrong.   Now, having learned nothing much, they are cheating their own party's voters again, relying on their connections in the same corrupt media

 

For a good intro into how this was/is, read, Listen Liberal, or, What Ever Happened To the Party of the People?, (written before the fact --2016) by Thomas Frank.


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#9 roc

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:29 PM

It's the 4th of July!

 

[Direct Link]



#10 Juthro

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:36 PM

Happy 4th

 

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#11 Juthro

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 04:50 PM

With due respect Alder, bringing up the democrats failures is about as productive as complaining about russian interference.

 

Both are old news, so can we move on to some current problems, like maybe how to  provide humanitarian needs to the prisoners at the border?


Edited by Juthro, 04 July 2019 - 04:50 PM.

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#12 roc

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 10:38 PM

Getting the House to deal with the budget needs and fixing the immigration laws would go a long ways to solving the humanitarian crisis at the border.

 

Since the border crisis is being used as a political pawn don't expect anything to happen until after 2020 if then.

 

They'll use those on the border and dying across this country from the opiod crisis as political pawns for their own needs.

Let's see 70,000 people dying here a year and less than 20 in the last year on the border... I don't understand where our priorities lie.

 

How about the homeless in SF and LA?

You'd think the politicians in those districts would be doing something about it but they don't and keep getting re-elected.

 

How about Chicago gun deaths the home of our past Administration who had eight years to do something about it?

 

How about the Detroit water crisis from 2014 that remains unsolved?

 

It's all politics right or is it the media?

 

India, Indonesia, and China account for 85 % of the pollution problem in the world and the Paris Climate Accord gives them a 20 year pass while we get fucked into paying the big bucks. Sounds like politicians are the problem again to me or is it the one world order plan underway by a couple of ultra wealthy people that will enslave us all if we let them?


Edited by roc, 04 July 2019 - 11:14 PM.

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#13 roc

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 10:48 PM

My purpose here is not to settle the differences between TDS and TAS (Trump Derangement Syndrome and Trump Adoration Syndrome), but to find a mechanism which will hopefully not allow such a situation to arise again.   There are ways to see how we got here, but we can't let a perception of our particular here blind us.  We can't do anything without a historical grounding beyond, "the Russians did it!"  

 

The Democratic Party, with their friends in the media, tried to pull a fast one, or a few fast ones.  The leadership stacked the deck against its own populist candidate, one it desperately did not want in the first place, and pushed one particular candidate from the other party, believing even the worst candidate they could put forward (one with a verifiable record of criminality and corruption), and even if cheating was the only way to have that candidate, they could not possibly lose.  Well, they were not only corrupt cheats, but in the end, they were disastrously wrong.   Now, having learned nothing much, they are cheating their own party's voters again, relying on their connections in the same corrupt media

 

For a good intro into how this was/is, read, Listen Liberal, or, What Ever Happened To the Party of the People?, (written before the fact --2016) by Thomas Frank.

Well said!

 

Problem is that those that have not gotten treatment for their derangement syndrome are oblivious to the old saying "Time tells all" and they'll keep going down the same path most like Lemmings do.


Edited by roc, 04 July 2019 - 10:49 PM.

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#14 Juthro

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 10:54 PM

Getting the House to deal with the budget needs and fixing the immigration laws would go a long ways to solving the humanitarian crisis at the border.

 

 

 

So would the house's first bill that was humanitarian only, with out the pork the senate added to their version.

 

And what the hell has the current administration done for any of those homeless people, and how does the fact they even exist excuse the fact that we are locking entire families up without basic amenities?


Edited by Juthro, 04 July 2019 - 11:06 PM.


#15 Juthro

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 11:40 PM

 

My purpose here is not to settle the differences between TDS and TAS (Trump Derangement Syndrome and Trump Adoration Syndrome), but to find a mechanism which will hopefully not allow such a situation to arise again.   There are ways to see how we got here, but we can't let a perception of our particular here blind us.  We can't do anything without a historical grounding beyond, "the Russians did it!"  

 

The Democratic Party, with their friends in the media, tried to pull a fast one, or a few fast ones.  The leadership stacked the deck against its own populist candidate, one it desperately did not want in the first place, and pushed one particular candidate from the other party, believing even the worst candidate they could put forward (one with a verifiable record of criminality and corruption), and even if cheating was the only way to have that candidate, they could not possibly lose.  Well, they were not only corrupt cheats, but in the end, they were disastrously wrong.   Now, having learned nothing much, they are cheating their own party's voters again, relying on their connections in the same corrupt media

 

For a good intro into how this was/is, read, Listen Liberal, or, What Ever Happened To the Party of the People?, (written before the fact --2016) by Thomas Frank.

Well said!

 

Problem is that those that have not gotten treatment for their derangement syndrome are oblivious to the old saying "Time tells all" and they'll keep going down the same path most like Lemmings do.

 

 

So does calling me a lemming not qualify as name calling because its so stupid that it's hard to find offence, or because it comes from the geriatric mod squad, and we think they may have forgotten the rules they were bitching to me about just today?

 

I could have swore you said you were to old and smart to waste your time in these threads, Roc.  And now your just turning nasty because you don't like the facts I've laid out, and you don't have any real arguments to counter them with.



#16 ElPirana

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Posted 05 July 2019 - 05:08 PM

Rather than asking “who rules, and how?”...the more pertinent question may be....what is our capacity to change the power structure and how we might go about doing so? Of course these questions imply that we actually understand the power structure in the first place. I’ve got some big doubts about any of it, although I would love for it to change.
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#17 roc

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 10:14 AM

 

 

My purpose here is not to settle the differences between TDS and TAS (Trump Derangement Syndrome and Trump Adoration Syndrome), but to find a mechanism which will hopefully not allow such a situation to arise again.   There are ways to see how we got here, but we can't let a perception of our particular here blind us.  We can't do anything without a historical grounding beyond, "the Russians did it!"  

 

The Democratic Party, with their friends in the media, tried to pull a fast one, or a few fast ones.  The leadership stacked the deck against its own populist candidate, one it desperately did not want in the first place, and pushed one particular candidate from the other party, believing even the worst candidate they could put forward (one with a verifiable record of criminality and corruption), and even if cheating was the only way to have that candidate, they could not possibly lose.  Well, they were not only corrupt cheats, but in the end, they were disastrously wrong.   Now, having learned nothing much, they are cheating their own party's voters again, relying on their connections in the same corrupt media

 

For a good intro into how this was/is, read, Listen Liberal, or, What Ever Happened To the Party of the People?, (written before the fact --2016) by Thomas Frank.

Well said!

 

Problem is that those that have not gotten treatment for their derangement syndrome are oblivious to the old saying "Time tells all" and they'll keep going down the same path most like Lemmings do.

 

 

So does calling me a lemming not qualify as name calling because its so stupid that it's hard to find offence, or because it comes from the geriatric mod squad, and we think they may have forgotten the rules they were bitching to me about just today?

 

I could have swore you said you were to old and smart to waste your time in these threads, Roc.  And now your just turning nasty because you don't like the facts I've laid out, and you don't have any real arguments to counter them with.

 

And this is usually how it goes... it turns nasty doesn't it and people feel insulted.

It's a two way street with Lemmings on both sides and only a few in the center.



#18 Juthro

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 12:56 PM

 

 

 

My purpose here is not to settle the differences between TDS and TAS (Trump Derangement Syndrome and Trump Adoration Syndrome), but to find a mechanism which will hopefully not allow such a situation to arise again.   There are ways to see how we got here, but we can't let a perception of our particular here blind us.  We can't do anything without a historical grounding beyond, "the Russians did it!"  

 

The Democratic Party, with their friends in the media, tried to pull a fast one, or a few fast ones.  The leadership stacked the deck against its own populist candidate, one it desperately did not want in the first place, and pushed one particular candidate from the other party, believing even the worst candidate they could put forward (one with a verifiable record of criminality and corruption), and even if cheating was the only way to have that candidate, they could not possibly lose.  Well, they were not only corrupt cheats, but in the end, they were disastrously wrong.   Now, having learned nothing much, they are cheating their own party's voters again, relying on their connections in the same corrupt media

 

For a good intro into how this was/is, read, Listen Liberal, or, What Ever Happened To the Party of the People?, (written before the fact --2016) by Thomas Frank.

Well said!

 

Problem is that those that have not gotten treatment for their derangement syndrome are oblivious to the old saying "Time tells all" and they'll keep going down the same path most like Lemmings do.

 

 

So does calling me a lemming not qualify as name calling because its so stupid that it's hard to find offence, or because it comes from the geriatric mod squad, and we think they may have forgotten the rules they were bitching to me about just today?

 

I could have swore you said you were to old and smart to waste your time in these threads, Roc.  And now your just turning nasty because you don't like the facts I've laid out, and you don't have any real arguments to counter them with.

 

And this is usually how it goes... it turns nasty doesn't it and people feel insulted.

It's a two way street with Lemmings on both sides and only a few in the center.

 

 

So whos getting their knickers in knott now, lol.

 

Do you need a hug?  :hug:


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#19 roc

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 01:00 PM

Don't kid yourself I'm not reffering to myself.

I'm a pretty thick skinned old goat :excl:

 

:hug:



#20 Alder Logs

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 01:01 PM

If we make it that those who try to not have a dog in the fight must defend that, as their dog, how to not let the partisanship take over the discussion?   It makes analysis impossible.  No analysis is going to be perfect for everyone, but we just have to let the discussion work past and around the dog fight.  I don't want to lose this arena of thought, so I will fight to keep it, even if it means throttling those voices who insist on attacking every dog but their own.   We must check our guns at the city limits, if it's the only way to clean up Dodge.


Edited by Alder Logs, 06 July 2019 - 01:02 PM.

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