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We Need Political Discussion, Not Partisan Division


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#21 Juthro

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 01:20 PM

Don't kid yourself I'm not reffering to myself.

I'm a pretty thick skinned old goat :excl:

 

:hug:

 

Well then, I think we are making progress, cuz I agree with about half of your last statement.   


Edited by Juthro, 06 July 2019 - 01:21 PM.

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#22 zenzen

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 04:11 PM

I have zero dog in politics.

Both parties are identical. You will have some outliers that show up thinking they can change things but once they get pulled into the machine they bend the knee to keep their power. Stop voting. Turn off your TV and enjoy what little time you have on this spinning ball of rock.





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#23 zenzen

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 04:48 PM

I am willing to accept discussion, but I won't change my opinion of the current administration.   I think they are in office by illegitimate means, I feel they are unjust, corrupt, and are immoral without conscious.  These are not things that I am undecided on, these are things that I bring from deep in my core.  The chances of changing my opinion on these core beliefs is zero, and when I feel my core beliefs are under attack, my first reaction is to attack back.

 

So basically I'm saying I accept your bid to talk about it, and I will try and behave in a civil manner. But I have doubt about your ability to keep it non partisan when people are divided as deeply on the issues as they are.

 

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attachicon.gifAADEvty.jpg

 

 

 

How many dead under Obamas watch with Drones?   How many children?  


Edited by zenzen, 06 July 2019 - 04:50 PM.


#24 zenzen

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 04:50 PM

Obamadrone.jpg



#25 Juthro

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 05:11 PM

Zenzen, your right, things happened in other administrations that were horrible and wrong.  But like the atrocities committed  against the Jews during WWII,  these things are history, and cannot be changed now.   Nor do they excuse the current administration of a single thing.  

 

And where was your bitching about those drone strikes back when they happened, or do you do it only now cuz it fits in to your argument?

 



#26 zenzen

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 05:44 PM

Every current administration becomes the historical administration. It’s all drama of life and it never ends. So get over it. Love this short life you have and stop worrying about humans that aren’t you and live your life. This admin will end. It will become a past one like FDR, regan, Clinton and bush and a new jack ass 1/2 the stupid nation will love and. 1/2 the stupid will hate. Be original and hate them all. Democrats and Republicans. Hate them all.


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#27 Juthro

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 06:10 PM

You keep telling me to hate them all, and I keep telling I DO.  I'm not carrying a banner for anyone.   

 

I'm accused of being a partisan, but that's not true.   A partisan describes someone who is a strong or fanatical supporter for a cause or party.  You all keep making the mistake of labeling me, and thinking that just because I don't agree with the ass hat in office,  that it must mean I love the ass hat on the other side of fence.  That is an incorrect assumption.  

 

And just because there were jackasses before him, and there will be  jackasses after him, doesn't mean that I'm going to be quiet and ignore what the current jackass is doing.

 

 

 

 

 


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#28 Thacan

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 06:11 PM

Getting the House to deal with the budget needs and fixing the immigration laws would go a long ways to solving the humanitarian crisis at the border.

 

Since the border crisis is being used as a political pawn don't expect anything to happen until after 2020 if then.

 

They'll use those on the border and dying across this country from the opiod crisis as political pawns for their own needs.

Let's see 70,000 people dying here a year and less than 20 in the last year on the border... I don't understand where our priorities lie.

 

How about the homeless in SF and LA?

You'd think the politicians in those districts would be doing something about it but they don't and keep getting re-elected.

 

How about Chicago gun deaths the home of our past Administration who had eight years to do something about it?

 

How about the Detroit water crisis from 2014 that remains unsolved?

 

It's all politics right or is it the media?

 

India, Indonesia, and China account for 85 % of the pollution problem in the world and the Paris Climate Accord gives them a 20 year pass while we get fucked into paying the big bucks. Sounds like politicians are the problem again to me or is it the one world order plan underway by a couple of ultra wealthy people that will enslave us all if we let them?

 

I seem to be good at killing threads so let’s try this one.

 

 

I agree with just about everything you said, but I have a few comments about USA energy use and “giving India, Indonesia, and China… a 20 year pass”.  After many years in the oil industry, I became so alarmed at what I learned that I purchased a Prius and have installed solar panels on my home.  The average American uses about 2 gallons a day of petroleum equivalent products, but the average Chinese and middle east Indian uses about 2 cups.  The US has what 350million or so people while India and China have over 3 billion people combined.  The US consumes about 25% of the world’s crude production every day or about 22.5 MBPD the last time I looked and has a disproportionate amount of pollution (on a per capita bases) compared anywhere else.  Up until  7 years ago, the US purchased about 45% of our crude oil from foreign countries, most of which we probably should not be doing business with because they, well, hate us and are corrupt.  Oil fields have a limited life and oil produced by fracking shale will not last forever.  And I won’t even start with the billions of tones of CO2 that are pumped into the atmosphere every hour.  I’m an old oil man that believes we really gotta change and using the excuse that it’s going to hurt us compared to India, Indonesia, and China is baloney; that and a bunch of other malarky that is dished out every day is big oil filling heads with BS and their pockets with $$.  I can say from first hand experience that the ONLY THING that matters to big oil is how much money they can pocket in the absolute shortest amount of time.  They do mostly follow the EPA laws too, but we are certainly seeing that completely dismantled by this administration.


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#29 Alder Logs

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 06:35 PM

Thacan, you made me think about this rap I wrote when Bill Clinton was the president.  It was an open letter in rap to that POTUS.

 

 

 

=====================

 

The Plain Green Rapper:
a rap mandate

©1993 by the Green Rapper

 

 

                    All we want is the world in a plain green wrapper
                and Mr. C., you could be our destiny's mapper
                    Please listen up Bill, you may not like what we're tellin'
                but messin' up our nest is what the good ol' boys are sellin'
                    While you're eatin' Mcburgers and runnin' your buns off
                great forests are fallin' and the topsoil just runs off
                    keepin' jobs for the loggers, the miners, and the ranchers
                and profits for the lawyers, the owners and the bankers
                    That's 'cause eco-nomics, is the science that is rulin'
                we been treating the ecologists like they are only foolin'
                    And, who are the champs in these games of crap and clutter?
                they're the makers and consumers of the guns and the butter
                    The top dog, biggest polluter on the scene
                is the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines

                    That's right, the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines

                    And though they're the worst poison in the natural world's demise
                agri-business beats them out by the factor of size
                    Now they want biotech & gene manipulation
                and atomic weapons' waste for food irradiation
                    They ruined all the soil that they poisoned, plowed, and plundered
                out across the lands where the buffalo thundered

                            / -- / -- / -- /

                    DuPont's CFCs took the ozone, here's a shocker
                they're sellin' you and me -- our ultra-violet blocker
                    Now NASA's gonna' fix it up but that's a pack'a lies
                'cause when the Space Shuttle flies, the ozone dies

                        when the Space Shuttle flies, the ozone dies

                    So we'll go to forest summits and we'll do negotiations
                but the business, as usual, is public relations
                    They wont fix it in their boardrooms, or out at their resorts
                it makes for bad financial statements and quarterly reports
                    It doesn't matter at their summer home, or out there on their yacht
                they never thought to give a damn with all the crap they got
                    So listen to us Bill 'cause we're talkin' to you man
                you swore up and down that we'd change what we can
                    Are you just one more of those empty promise givers?
                don't try to hand to us what's in Arkansas' rivers
                    Repairing the environment, of course will not be easy
                with what we inherit from the greedy and the sleazy
                    They've got chemicals, armaments, oil, medicine, and cash
                they'll own our dying planet and we will own their trash

                    and we will own their trash

                        and we will own their trash

                            / -- / -- / -- /

                    If we deny, while species die, we too will soon be goin'
                we'd best be wise, don't compromise, earth, air, and water flowin'
                    While Mother Earth's defenders put their bodies on the line
                we drive to work, and pay our tax, and hope we're doin' fine
                    So hear us Bill, the people's will, our votes are how you got there
                but if one in four was for Al Gore, without him you'd be not there
                    Now we see your strategy, with Al you played the E-card
                if it's all lies, and Nature dies, for Chelsea that could be hard
                    So, will you back the billionaires, or will you make 'em pay?
                will you stand up on your hind legs, will you seize the day?
                    Slow poisoned death all 'round the world, of course it isn't funny
                how sad the day, we had to say... we did it all for money

                    we did it all for money

                        we did it all for money

                            / -- / -- / -- /


Edited by Alder Logs, 06 July 2019 - 06:45 PM.

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#30 Thacan

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 06:41 PM

Alder Logs, genius man that is brilliant! :biggrin:



#31 Alder Logs

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 06:52 PM

Alder Logs, genius man that is brilliant! :biggrin:

 

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#32 Juthro

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 08:00 PM

 Love this short life you have and stop worrying about humans that aren’t you and live your life. 
 

 

Your compassion for your fellow man is somewhat underwhelming.  My guess is you will feel differently when it comes to be your turn in the barrell. 

 

And let's figure something out if we can.  If your position is to just ignore whatever is going on, and to not care about anyone else, then maybe you should follow your own advice and quite worrying about what I say, or feel.


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#33 roc

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Posted 06 July 2019 - 09:49 PM

 

Getting the House to deal with the budget needs and fixing the immigration laws would go a long ways to solving the humanitarian crisis at the border.

 

Since the border crisis is being used as a political pawn don't expect anything to happen until after 2020 if then.

 

They'll use those on the border and dying across this country from the opiod crisis as political pawns for their own needs.

Let's see 70,000 people dying here a year and less than 20 in the last year on the border... I don't understand where our priorities lie.

 

How about the homeless in SF and LA?

You'd think the politicians in those districts would be doing something about it but they don't and keep getting re-elected.

 

How about Chicago gun deaths the home of our past Administration who had eight years to do something about it?

 

How about the Detroit water crisis from 2014 that remains unsolved?

 

It's all politics right or is it the media?

 

India, Indonesia, and China account for 85 % of the pollution problem in the world and the Paris Climate Accord gives them a 20 year pass while we get fucked into paying the big bucks. Sounds like politicians are the problem again to me or is it the one world order plan underway by a couple of ultra wealthy people that will enslave us all if we let them?

 

I seem to be good at killing threads so let’s try this one.

 

 

I agree with just about everything you said, but I have a few comments about USA energy use and “giving India, Indonesia, and China… a 20 year pass”.  After many years in the oil industry, I became so alarmed at what I learned that I purchased a Prius and have installed solar panels on my home.  The average American uses about 2 gallons a day of petroleum equivalent products, but the average Chinese and middle east Indian uses about 2 cups.  The US has what 350million or so people while India and China have over 3 billion people combined.  The US consumes about 25% of the world’s crude production every day or about 22.5 MBPD the last time I looked and has a disproportionate amount of pollution (on a per capita bases) compared anywhere else.  Up until  7 years ago, the US purchased about 45% of our crude oil from foreign countries, most of which we probably should not be doing business with because they, well, hate us and are corrupt.  Oil fields have a limited life and oil produced by fracking shale will not last forever.  And I won’t even start with the billions of tones of CO2 that are pumped into the atmosphere every hour.  I’m an old oil man that believes we really gotta change and using the excuse that it’s going to hurt us compared to India, Indonesia, and China is baloney; that and a bunch of other malarky that is dished out every day is big oil filling heads with BS and their pockets with $$.  I can say from first hand experience that the ONLY THING that matters to big oil is how much money they can pocket in the absolute shortest amount of time.  They do mostly follow the EPA laws too, but we are certainly seeing that completely dismantled by this administration.

 

Well you got me on that one... CO2 emissions that is and of course that dirty filthy oil money greed!

I grew up in SW KS and have had my share of exposure to oil and natural gas with family tending wells and one uncle working for Haliburton and then heading up to Wyoming on his own as a tool pusher gone big time in Big Sky country.

You are dead on with our oil dependency and where it's headed.

I should have been a little clearer about Indonesia, India, and China in that they are the ones trashing the oceans with waste plastic and what oil and coal they do use is the most inefficient and filthy there is in the world thus their smog and emissions in relation to our contributions. I won't make excuses for us but we have been on a continuous improvement in efficiency and emissions unlike the 3rd world countries. We'll hope that we don't go backwards with Admin changes and keep on that track. We are at risk now indeed with what's happening.

I used to be anti-nuke but currently on the east coast we plug in our hybrid or Tesla in a nuke while we drive them around with Zero Emission stickers on them... how ironic. At least I'm not surrounded by coal fired generating plants like KS TX OK contributing to CO2 emissions like back home.

I did go back to a class reunion in SW KS and was excited as hell to see a lot of the Wind Farms as I flew in. We used to have a few but now it's 1000's but the locals also have the highest price energy in the country with the combined wind power, coal and natural gas. I got into a conversation with an old neighbor that came from old oil and gas money and asked what the hell was going on with costs. I thought man Wind power has got to be cheaper but got schooled on one thing and that was how efficient wind power is from an investors perspective. I had no idea and didn't believe him until I came home and studied it out my self. At 35-38 percent efficiency it takes a lot of subsidies to offset the cost and the energy is still high. Now I understand why Germany and Holland for two examples have such high taxation to supplement solar and wind power not to mention health care.

You are correct we have to do something and to go solar and wind we are going to have to upset the whole apple cart of the economic system we now operate under or we are toast if we keep relying on oil and fracking.

Anyway I've got to part for now but I agree with what you have pointed out. 

I had been back to SW KS a couple of years ago and was impressed to see the big conversion of all the tubing and pipe yards to wind generators (Seimens) until I learned that they are 38% efficient. 


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#34 zenzen

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 05:38 AM

Love this short life you have and stop worrying about humans that aren’t you and live your life.


Your compassion for your fellow man is somewhat underwhelming. My guess is you will feel differently when it comes to be your turn in the barrell.

And let's figure something out if we can. If your position is to just ignore whatever is going on, and to not care about anyone else, then maybe you should follow your own advice and quite worrying about what I say, or feel.

I’m 51 years old. I don’t hate humans but I’m not going to lose sleep over them as well. Some are great and some are power hungry and suck. Every president we have ever had has sucked one way or another. They all have abused their power at one time or another. That’s just what power is. I don’t lose sleep over it. I would love for everyone to strip government of its power by not caring about it. Stop giving it power when your “guy” is in office and think the next guy won’t abuse that new level of power. Trump is the fault of all Obama minions. Obama wAs the fault of the Bush minions. It just grows and grows in power with each swing of what people think is “change”. It’s not change. It’s the same old story over and over. And it’s boring.


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#35 roc

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 09:05 AM

 

 

Love this short life you have and stop worrying about humans that aren’t you and live your life.


Your compassion for your fellow man is somewhat underwhelming. My guess is you will feel differently when it comes to be your turn in the barrell.

And let's figure something out if we can. If your position is to just ignore whatever is going on, and to not care about anyone else, then maybe you should follow your own advice and quite worrying about what I say, or feel.

I’m 51 years old. I don’t hate humans but I’m not going to lose sleep over them as well. Some are great and some are power hungry and suck. Every president we have ever had has sucked one way or another. They all have abused their power at one time or another. That’s just what power is. I don’t lose sleep over it. I would love for everyone to strip government of its power by not caring about it. Stop giving it power when your “guy” is in office and think the next guy won’t abuse that new level of power. Trump is the fault of all Obama minions. Obama wAs the fault of the Bush minions. It just grows and grows in power with each swing of what people think is “change”. It’s not change. It’s the same old story over and over. And it’s boring.


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Would you run and hide during the upcoming Civil War or stay and fight?


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#36 TVCasualty

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 10:09 AM

I can't see how a civil war would be possible in the U.S..

 

A chaotic implosion, sure, but IMO the social cohesion necessary for there to be clearly defined 'sides' in any such conflict is lacking here. There can't be a conflict based on geography like the first U.S. Civil War since the opposing sides number more than two and they're all mixed up together throughout the country.

 

In our first Civil War, two large and cohesive abstract constructs that were anchored in and partly defined by geography slammed into each other like battering rams until one side gave up. In what seems likely to come next, many small and disparate abstract constructs are intermingled and dispersed equally with no geographical delineation (relatively speaking, that is). A lack of defined territories would make the necessary logistical support for a conventional large-scale conflict impossible, so any eruption between or among the various groups involved would seem to me to manifest more like an explosive chemical reaction in a beaker where the entire mix erupts simultaneously, possibly shattering the metaphorical beaker and definitely making one hell of a mess to clean up.

 

I don't get the sense that there's such a thing as "American culture" anymore, if there ever was. "America" is a collection of disparate sub-cultures forced to live together, and some of them get along and some don't, to put it mildly. I guess our society is a fractal structure consisting of how all those sub-cultural interactions play out in real-life.

 

Thanks to Chaos Theory we know that such large-scale complex systems are subject to the Butterfly Effect (if not ruled by it), so the inescapable conclusion that I'm forced to draw here is that not only does nobody have their hands on society's steering wheel, there is no steering wheel. Which means it's all just a ride (in the Bill Hicks sense). All the rest may be merely a function of projection and cognitive dissonance, but I have no way to tell for sure since I'm just as subject to projection and dissonance as everyone else.

 

So hang on tight, and enjoy the show!


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#37 roc

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 11:20 AM

TV you are probably right.

There are small pockets where state militias are still alive and well that could try and take a stance against those that attempt to overthrow them but the government would probably come in and put them down.

Another possibility is race based or city folk versus country folk but again the government would prevail.

Maybe a coup is DC would be the closest thing. Organize and roll into DC like Mad Max. If that want to blow it up then fine we me.

 

Slap me in the face and wake me up... we have already allowed our government to take us over just like they did to the Native Americans.


Edited by roc, 07 July 2019 - 11:22 AM.

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#38 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 11:28 AM

Just minutes ago, I heard of what was called a "Mad Max" event happening in India over water shortages.  Whether you accept or discredit the idea of geoengineering of the weather, I think this weekly digest of international news is an extremely valuable source of interdisciplinary reportage.  I give it my fifty five minutes of listening every week.   Just as with my listening to news from Jimmy Dore, it may not be everyone's cup of tea, with whatever biases we bring to it.  So, for those who have the ears to listen, there is this:

 

[Direct Link]



#39 Juthro

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 10:24 PM

I don't see a civil war happening again in the US, at least not one like the last one, with two clearly divided sides. 

 

But I don't think that it's impossible that the central government could collapse (with or without help) at some point in my lifetime.  If that happened, I could see  the US breaking up into several regions.  But I don't see where a coup, or some kind of revolution would be able the wrest enough power to seize control of the entire country without significant warfare and chaos on more then one front.


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#40 Alder Logs

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Posted 07 July 2019 - 11:38 PM

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