33 replies to this topic

[Cuboid]

 

....

Since switching to a low carb diet (I'm not good enough at it to call it a ketogenic diet truly) I am better than I was in a lot of ways, like in particular I don't carve carb's like I used to and don't get hungry between meals like I used to. Buuutttt..... I still get pretty wobbly if I am late having a meal or miss a meal. I would need to take a few days off work to try a fasting for 2 or 3 days. 

ketogenic diet seems to just be a fad that results in rapid weight loss but not healthy long term. See for example:   https://nutritionfac...-series-part-1/

 

It'd be a fad for me if I only did it for a couple of weeks and boasted about sudden weight loss. However ...

 

I've been low carbing for getting on for a year and whilst I did lose some weight initially I plateaued at 90% of my previous weight. The % body fat I have has remained the same. BUT and here comes the really important bit for me - my blood sugar is much lower and stable - no longer T2 diabetic AND my cholesterol has lowered significantly.

 

I think the problem we have with dietary recommendations is they tend to be one size fits all when humans are nothing of the sort. Lo carb or the more 'extreme' ketogenic diets may well not suite everyone but it sure suites me.

[August West]

Basically the body, or an aspect of it wants to detox for about 4o days. ...As stated previously, the way one feels goes up and down according to the toxins which are being released. ...The trick is to break the fast while feeling good, and not in the midst of a wave of toxins being unloaded. This requires attention and not imposing plans. Fasting is a serious business, and the longer it lasts the more so, which means there are rules that go with it, if one wants good results. If one doesn't care, about results of course one can do whatever one wants.

 

I would be curious to read some literature on what toxins are released from the body and what exactly is the meaning of detox in this context?

 

As an aside, I care not which direction these threads go in, that's up to all-you-all but just to be clear, the initial topic was intermittent fasting as opposed to long term. Carry on.

[ElPirana]

@shiftingshadows, you make some good points. With regards to your earlier point, I will be very careful what I eat once I break the fast. No plans to go eat a normal meal.

As stated previously, the way one feels goes up and down according to the toxins which are being released. This cannot be predicted. The trick is to break the fast while feeling good, and not in the midst of a wave of toxins being unloaded. This requires attention and not imposing plans.

^^ This is a good point. I hadn’t thought about adjusting the timing to end of the fast in this way, but it makes sense.

[shiftingshadows]

 

Basically the body, or an aspect of it wants to detox for about 4o days. ...As stated previously, the way one feels goes up and down according to the toxins which are being released. ...The trick is to break the fast while feeling good, and not in the midst of a wave of toxins being unloaded. This requires attention and not imposing plans. Fasting is a serious business, and the longer it lasts the more so, which means there are rules that go with it, if one wants good results. If one doesn't care, about results of course one can do whatever one wants.

 

I would be curious to read some literature on what toxins are released from the body and what exactly is the meaning of detox in this context?

 

As an aside, I care not which direction these threads go in, that's up to all-you-all but just to be clear, the initial topic was intermittent fasting as opposed to long term. Carry on.

 

 

Here are some results:  https://duckduckgo.c...=hd&va=u&ia=web

 

On a simple level many who have say a salt, caffeine, tobacco, or sugar addiction, and have had trouble becoming free of them, find that after a fast the cravings associated with them are gone: presumably because the associated chemicals have been eliminated by the body, just as when a person goes 'cold turkey' during a 'detox', except that it's easier to accomplish during a fast as all the body's energy gets focused on one task - if one rests while fasting.

 

See for example:

"The Pleasure Trap: Mastering the Hidden Force That Undermines Health & Happiness" Douglas J. Lisle (Author), Alan Goldhamer (Author) -- reviews here:  https://www.amazon.c...20165899&sr=1-1

Edited by shiftingshadows, 04 May 2021 - 05:17 PM.

[shiftingshadows]

some nice news on intermittent fasting:  https://www.scienced...10429123340.htm

[shiftingshadows]

@shiftingshadows, you make some good points. With regards to your earlier point, I will be very careful what I eat once I break the fast. No plans to go eat a normal meal.
 

As stated previously, the way one feels goes up and down according to the toxins which are being released. This cannot be predicted. The trick is to break the fast while feeling good, and not in the midst of a wave of toxins being unloaded. This requires attention and not imposing plans.

^^ This is a good point. I hadn’t thought about adjusting the timing to end of the fast in this way, but it makes sense.

 

 

I think this tip is from dr. Doug Graham (dr. stand for chiropractor in this case)

[clumsy]

Intermittent fasting (IF) is as good as continuous energy (calorie) restriction.

IF may also reduce belly fat.

Alternate day fasting is one variation, also the 16:8 diet, or the 5:2 diet. Even a 10 hour
per day fast might help with weight loss.
Intermittent fasting and periodic fasting are more natural than eating 3X per day.
Intermittent fasting is a less stressful way to shed pounds, as it was for these two ladies.
Intermittent fasting may raise metabolism.
Hunger is not usually a problem with fasting. When the body runs out of fuel for glycolysis, ketosis is switched on. Ghrelin decreases after a day.

IF works via mitochondrial hormesis.

IF works via optimized gene expression.
IF works via increased metabolism.
The blood levels of growth hormone may increase as much as 5-fold during a 2-day fast.

Shorter fasts also feature this growth hormone increase.
Higher levels of this hormone facilitate fat burning and muscle gain.

The main function of hormone-sensitive lipase is to mobilize stored fats. It is inhibited by insulin.

IF allows insulin levels to drop, allowing hormone-sensitive lipase to work.

There is no need, perhaps, to reduce caloric intake.
IF may result in less muscle loss than reducing caloric intake. If muscle is lost, the myonuclei
are not lost, so muscle is easily regained.

 

Fasting mice survived significantly longer than the full-fed mice, in spite of the fasting group having a heavier body weight than the control group. Fasting promotes multi-system regeneration, enhanced cognitive performance, and healthspan in mice The mean life span of the every-other-day (EOD) group of rats represented an 83% increase over that of the AL group. The optimum amount of fasting for rats appeared to be fasting 1 day in 3 and this increased the life span of littermate males about 20% and littermate females about 15%. The switch from glycolysis to ketosis can improve blood sugar regulation, increase resistance to stress, and suppress inflammation.

IF is also part of the Blue Zones dietary pattern.
Fasting can be for as little as 16 hours per day.

Longer fasts may best be done under medical supervision.

Exercise may help end a longer fast.

Intermittent fasting provides many benefits of calorie restriction, but may be easier to implement. Fasting has the potential to delay aging and help prevent and treat diseases.
The Fast Mimicking Diet (FMD) is one version of intermittent fasting. Do not dry fast.
The benefits of IF has been shown by many studies.

IF versus the age-related accumulation of lipofuscin
IF versus chronic diseases.
Intermittent fasting reduces chronic inflammation.
IF boosts intestinal stem cell's regenerative capacity, improves gut health.

IF works via RHEB-1 signalling.
IF works via optimized gene expression.
IF works via inhibition of HNF4-(alpha) protein.
IF works via sirtuins.
IF works via alpha-ketaglutarate.

IF reduces enzyme induced peroxidation via increased endogenous Coenzyme Q.
Fasting boosts endogenous antioxidants ergothionine and carnosine.
AMPK (see above) can prevent fasting-induced hypoglycemia
Dry fasts are dangerous and have dubious health benefits.

[August West]

 

 

Here are some results:  https://duckduckgo.c...=hd&va=u&ia=web

On a simple level many who have say a salt, caffeine, tobacco, or sugar addiction, and have had trouble becoming free of them, find that after a fast the cravings associated with them are gone: presumably because the associated chemicals have been eliminated by the body, just as when a person goes 'cold turkey' during a 'detox', except that it's easier to accomplish during a fast as all the body's energy gets focused on one task - if one rests while fasting.

 

See for example:

"The Pleasure Trap: Mastering the Hidden Force That Undermines Health & Happiness" Douglas J. Lisle (Author), Alan Goldhamer (Author) -- reviews here:  https://www.amazon.c...20165899&sr=1-1

 

 

Ok, I see. That's what I was thinking. I'm never quite sure what people mean by "toxins".Unfortunately, most of the provided search links aren't very rigorous and use a common, circular-type argument. They just keep using the word over and over: "It's good for eliminating toxins" or "Toxins get stored in fat" or "Toxins are stored in your blood cells". Only one of the links (admittedly,s I only perused them) mentioned anything remotely concrete: "heavy metals". Unfortunately no description of the metals. I would think most of these things, like caffeine, salt, sugar and tobacco are removed by the body's liver and kidneys without any special diet. One could literally remove them by not consuming them for the hours to days they stay in the body.

 

I mean no disrespect. I just have yet to see any compelling evidence (anywhere) that "detoxing" - a word hijacked from the world of addiction it would seem - isn't essentially a sales pitch in some form or other (I am not suggesting you're selling something). 

Edited by August West, 04 May 2021 - 11:02 PM.

[Coopdog]

Only read the OP but seemed like good info. Looking forward to reading all the comments too :)

[shiftingshadows]

....

....

I mean no disrespect. I just have yet to see any compelling evidence (anywhere) that "detoxing" - a word hijacked from the world of addiction it would seem - isn't essentially a sales pitch in some form or other (I am not suggesting you're selling something). 

 

.     As you say specific chemical data seems lacking. Perhaps the best we can do is to take caffeine and tobacco for example.  Caffeine is not a toxin like arsenic, yet people have a hard time quitting and when they do, often get headaches, so it's not entirely a benign substance. In the case of nicotine it is toxic, often produces worse withdrawal reactions than caffeine and is often harder to quit. In both cases fasting facilitates the ending of all desire for these substances. Why? Because the body has been returned to the purer state of those who never consumed these harmful and addictive substances. So I don't agree that the word 'detox' was hijacked, the processes are simply similar and accelerated by fasting IMO.

.     Metabolism actually has 2 components: "Anabolism and catabolism are the two broad classes of biochemical reactions that make up metabolism. Anabolism is the synthesis of complex molecules from simpler ones. These chemical reactions require energy. Catabolism is the breakdown of complex molecules into simpler ones." For instance skin cells are replaced at a high rate. So the body constantly has waste aka toxic by products to eliminate even if not eating. People who snack all day and eat late at night build up waste, according to those who think toxins are a major source of disease. Fasting is not mainstream, and so I guess it's hard to find the hard data you want. Of course fasting is free and anyone who is reasonably healthy can experiment with it, and find lots of anecdotal evidence, and some books, & videos on the subject.

.    Both all these sources, and my own experiences confirm, to my satisfaction that there is something to the theory of toxemia and that one way fasting works is by eliminating toxins. Today in America, water only fasting is not popular or well understood, yet the information is interesting and knowledge of fasting has been known to native cultures for thousands of years.

.    This does not mean I discount entirely the germ theory of disease   , I got both my 1st & 2nd shots of vaccine.   

Edited by shiftingshadows, 05 May 2021 - 08:47 AM.

[FLASHINGROOSTER]

I might need to develop an acronym for these health conversations. I like to start out by saying Everyone's body is different and they will find different things that may or may not work for them

 

I would have to agree that to an outsider it appears that the word detox was hijacked for marketing purposes.  It is quick visual imagery that convinces someone there is a poisonous substance in their body and for whatever reason it can't be eliminated unless you take my supplements or follow my guide, or drink my detox drink, all for the low low price of 49.95 plus tax.

 

I may be missing the point but the two examples you used (Tobacco and caffeine) are drugs so they would certainly align with the idea of detox and addiction but not the elusive toxins like plastic particles in your body

 

It is made to feel like they are selling something that would work far and above your bodies natural ability to filter out the "bad stuff"

 

Seems to me they are mostly reaping the benefits from fasting and slapping a price tag on it

[shiftingshadows]

...

 

Seems to me they are mostly reaping the benefits from fasting and slapping a price tag on it

.    Certainly most everything gets commercialized in the USA these days. I have no desire to devote a lot of energy to defending fasting, or theories as to how it works. Although many have done so.

 

.    My original interest in the subject came from reading about a protestor that did it, decades ago, who turned me onto Gandhi, about whom I then read a lot. So my start wasn't even an interest in health. 

 

.    Only a bit later did I discover Herbert Herbert M. Shelton ( 1895 -  1985), and natural hygiene, Paul Bragg (1895-1976), Dick Gregory, Arnold Erhart, and various others, among them Arnold DeVries, who’s book can be found for free online here. It is a good short book and may answer many questions posters here have.

https://jeune-et-ran...fr/devries.pdf 

 

.    Now days US Doctors will not recommend, fasting at home beyond about 3 days, as a tiny percentage of people could have serious complications, and the American public now is very unhealthy, and often foolish. 

 

.   But Paul Bragg, did 10 day fasts several times a year and recommended them, in his book. Of course people were healthier then before junk & fast food franchises were a staple for Americans and when food came more often from local family farms.

 

.    Loren Lockman, may turn some off as he runs an expensive fasting retreat out of country. But if one wants to learn from video and images, he is rather knowledgeable, and the videos are free.

https://www.youtube....lockman fasting

 

.   There were no resources like free pdfs & videos, when I started out. As regards plastic nano particles, there is now so much pollution on the planet, I doubt anything can (or ever could) rid us of it all. It is now well known there is an arsenic problem with US rice grown in the south, and much fish is not safe for pregnant women to eat regularly, and the list goes on and on... so IMO it's not about some sort of ideal perfection, it's simply about remedial action and doing one's best.

Edited by shiftingshadows, 05 May 2021 - 04:33 PM.

[August West]

....As you say specific chemical data seems lacking. Perhaps the best we can do is to take caffeine and tobacco for example.  Caffeine is not a toxin like arsenic, yet people have a hard time quitting and when they do, often get headaches, so it's not entirely a benign substance. In the case of nicotine it is toxic, often produces worse withdrawal reactions than caffeine and is often harder to quit. In both cases fasting facilitates the ending of all desire for these substances. Why? Because the body has been returned to the purer state of those who never consumed these harmful and addictive substances. So I don't agree that the word 'detox' was hijacked, the processes are simply similar and accelerated by fasting IMO.

 

I believe data doesn't exist because "toxins" doesn't really have a concrete meaning. Caffeine and especially nicotine are indeed serious substances. But, as I said, those and just about everything else one puts into their body are gone within hours (caffeine) to a few days (nicotine). Our body is designed to remove "waste", whether one fasts or not. If things aren't being consumed, they won't be "adding up" in the body. If you fast for a day, caffeine is gone. Three days, nicotine is gone (or nearly). Basically, "fasting" from those substances, eliminates them. Alternatively, one could eat pepperoni sticks every hour on the hour and, as long as they didn't consume nicotine or caffeine, they'd be free of those two substances.

 

I mean no disrespect by this but, the idea that fasting "facilitates the ending of all desire for these substances" is a dubious claim and hints at a lack of understanding about the nature of addiction.

 

...For instance skin cells are replaced at a high rate. So the body constantly has waste aka toxic by products to eliminate even if not eating. People who snack all day and eat late at night build up waste, according to those who think toxins are a major source of disease. Fasting is not mainstream, and so I guess it's hard to find the hard data you want. Of course fasting is free and anyone who is reasonably healthy can experiment with it, and find lots of anecdotal evidence, and some books, & videos on the subject.

.    Both all these sources, and my own experiences confirm, to my satisfaction that there is something to the theory of toxemia and that one way fasting works is by eliminating toxins. Today in America, water only fasting is not popular or well understood, yet the information is interesting and knowledge of fasting has been known to native cultures for thousands of years.

.    This does not mean I discount entirely the germ theory of disease   , I got both my 1st & 2nd shots of vaccine.   

As I indicated above, within nutrition, "waste" is that which the body does not use. Plenty of "useful" substances get unused by the body. That doesn't make them toxic. Until toxic is defined, linking it to that which the liver and kidneys remove naturally is redundant. Toxic just sounds more urgent.

 

Fasting may not be mainstream but it's not lightly studied. There is plenty of rigorous science on the benefits and drawbacks of fasting but I have yet to come across anything concrete in the literature about "toxins". I don't pour over this literature as a matter of habit so I could've missed something. Ime, people who talk about fasting to eliminate toxins are trying to sell you something. Sometimes it's only a lifestyle that they'd prefer to see you follow. Other times it's a product.

 

As I've said several times, I mean no disrespect by any of this. I find the use of language important in discussing most things and I can be pedantic to a fault.

 

And yes, terrain theory is very compelling. I have not done the work to understand whether it should have one the day over germ theory but I don't doubt that the argument should continuously be revisited. Far too much money behind Pasteur at this point to turn back now.
 

 

[shiftingshadows]

The controversy is alive and well
https://duckduckgo.c...=hd&va=u&ia=web
From my point of view
the matter is easily resolved.
It is just like mushrooms and sex
(or actually anything, like for
example even the taste of a banana))
if one hasn't experienced them
all one has is theory
which is great for arguing,
(or convincing others of minor points),
but useless for getting any benefit,
from either mushrooms, sex, bananas or fasting, etc.

 

I understand the skepticism,

in view of the money to be made

from "detox", and such baloney as

"mucoid plaque " See for example:

https://duckduckgo.c...=hd&va=u&ia=web

https://duckduckgo.c...d&va=u&ia=web. 

 

But as the free pdf referenced above (& below) makes clear, this does not apply

to water only, supervised, fasting. Precisely because true fasting is difficult

for the average urban person, there are all sorts liver flushes, smoothie diets,

and juice fasting, etc. etc.

https://jeune-et-ran....fr/devries.pdf

 

https://duckduckgo.c...earlydeep":"a"}

 

this one is perhaps better formatted

https://www.soilandh...ies.fasting.pdf

Edited by shiftingshadows, 06 May 2021 - 11:07 AM.