46 replies to this topic

[HrVanker]

A couple years ago I had two nice cuttings. I let them grow for a season, and they did rather well. Eventually they got too much rain, and I had to cut them down. I cut about 4ft (didn't weigh it) in two sections. One section I sliced and dried, the other was made into a tea. I canned the tea in a Mason jar. I still have both the dried stuff and the tea.

I'm thinking about pulverizing the dried chips and adding them to the tea, waiting a few days and then extracting. My goal is a broad spectrum extraction, since bridgesii supposedly has some extra alkaloids to offer.

Any tips or teks to offer? I am familiar with the traditional A/B and STB extraction. But as I recall, A/B is highly recommended for mesc extraction.

[pharmer]

if you grind the chips and add them to the tea you'll need to basify the amended tea to break down the powder and free up the target

 

if it were me I'd go straight to basing the tea/powder combo for a couple weeks, then xylene, then the salting step

 

if you're really patient you can defat the tea (only) before basing it. the powder will still have to be made into a tea, which can then be defatted, or go to the basing step and bypass the defat.  defatting cleans things up and makes all subsequent steps cleaner and easier.

[HrVanker]

if you grind the chips and add them to the tea you'll need to basify the amended tea to break down the powder and free up the target

if it were me I'd go straight to basing the tea/powder combo for a couple weeks, then xylene, then the salting step

if you're really patient you can defat the tea (only) before basing it. the powder will still have to be made into a tea, which can then be defatted, or go to the basing step and bypass the defat. defatting cleans things up and makes all subsequent steps cleaner and easier.

Will an STB create a gooey product? Also, I'll have about a week to finish the project. Will a second week of steeping increase the yield significantly?

In the last paragraph, are you saying to de-fat only the tea then add the powdered chips, if I go that route?

[pharmer]

it is premature to defat the powdered cactus until it has been boiled. it needs to be broken down by the boiling before defatting will work. adding powder to defatted tea will just add fats back into the tea.

 

if the mix gets gooey add water and sodium chloride and/or heat

 

things are often boiled in proper labs to accelerate a chemical process. so if you're short on time the base step can be sped up with heat

[HrVanker]

it is premature to defat the powdered cactus until it has been boiled. it needs to be broken down by the boiling before defatting will work. adding powder to defatted tea will just add fats back into the tea.

if the mix gets gooey add water and sodium chloride and/or heat

things are often boiled in proper labs to accelerate a chemical process. so if you're short on time the base step can be sped up with heat

Right, that's why I asked for the clarification. It seemed odd to de-fat and then add fresh material. Lol

I've read that sulfuric acid is good at breaking down cellulose. If I used that as my acid for the de-fat, Do you think that would help to speed things up as well?

[pharmer]

acids don't defat. non polars do.  xylene is a non polar. acids and bases are very polar.

[HrVanker]

acids don't defat. non polars do. xylene is a non polar. acids and bases are very polar.

Right, but when you de-fat, you acidify the mixture and pull with a solvent. Correct?

[Norman]

You could either start an A/B on the chips, add the tea after the boil and then defat and extract or you could start an STB on the chips and add the tea to that, making sure that the pH didn’t drop too much before extracting. If you wanted to defat the tea first you could, though I don’t see much point since you’ll still have fat from the chips to deal with.
I’m not a fan of STB for cactus since the lack of a defat makes the extraction even more of a pain in the ass and I definitely would not boil the basified solution.
As far as broad spectrum I don’t know though I’ve always heard that bridge should just be eaten or drunk as tea rather than extracted in order to be appreciated.
I’ve never heard that about sulphuric acid but I’m intrigued. Could come in handy if true.

[HrVanker]

You could either start an A/B on the chips, add the tea after the boil and then defat and extract or you could start an STB on the chips and add the tea to that, making sure that the pH didn’t drop too much before extracting. If you wanted to defat the tea first you could, though I don’t see much point since you’ll still have fat from the chips to deal with.
I’m not a fan of STB for cactus since the lack of a defat makes the extraction even more of a pain in the ass and I definitely would not boil the basified solution.
As far as broad spectrum I don’t know though I’ve always heard that bridge should just be eaten or drunk as tea rather than extracted in order to be appreciated.
I’ve never heard that about sulphuric acid but I’m intrigued. Could come in handy if true.

As for the sulfuric acid and cellulose, I believe that's how they make "flash cotton." And a quick search for "sulfuric acid cellulose" brought up a couple articles on the matter.

I already powdered the chips and boiled them for a couple hours, so it seems like defatting the whole solution is the route I'll go.

I've also heard that it should not be extracted as well, but I needed to store the cactus. I suppose I could drink the tea, but I'd like some way to quantify the dose I'm taking, so extraction seems to be the way to go, this time. IIRC, someone here (years ago) did a broad spectrum extraction on bridgesii and ended up with a light brown sugar colored powder. I'm at work, but I'll see if I can find it tonight.

[Norman]

Flash cotton is made with nitric acid - hence nitrocellulose - but you’re right on about sulphuric. Looks like a worthy avenue to explore.
I’m curious to know just what whoever it was did to make their extraction broad spectrum.

[HrVanker]

Flash cotton is made with nitric acid - hence nitrocellulose - but you’re right on about sulphuric. Looks like a worthy avenue to explore.
I’m curious to know just what whoever it was did to make their extraction broad spectrum.

That's right, nitric acid. Thanks for the correction!

After some searching I can't seem to find the thread I was taking about. The closest I found was a Phineas thread: https://mycotopia.ne...line-Extraction (I'm going to have to read up on his xylene+toluene recommendation)

The color of that product is a little lighter than what I recall, but similar texture. However, none of the photos are the one I specifically remember. And I see no mention of anything similar to "full-spectrum extraction." I'll keep looking though, it's gotta be out there!

EDIT: @Defiance points out that w/o cleaning the final product, that it's an extraction of all alkaloids present. Sounds like what I'm looking for. But Phineas specifically defats using HCL as the acid, and salts with H2SO4... he knows his shit. I wonder why he made that decision.

Edited by HrVanker, 18 August 2019 - 01:04 AM.

[Norman]

I don’t know why he uses HCl vs sulphuric either though I don’t think it really makes much difference in the initial boil since the alks are likely in salt form in the cactus in the first place. Adding acid is just a precaution to make sure everything stays acidic.
Thinking about it, I’m not sure either if the small amount of sulfuric used would give you that cellulose breakdown either or if it would be a good thing since broken down cellulose could just end up gumming up your extraction.
I think he mentioned somewhere that the xylene/ toluene mix was because he ran out of one and switched to the other at some point. They’re very similar, xylene being just toluene with an extra methyl group.

[HrVanker]

So, it seems that big box stores don't sell xylene or toluene. All the thinners are mineral spirits or low VOC solvents.

Does anyone have experience with limonene? Is it easy to work with? Can I defat with it?

[Boebs]

I just bought xylene from home d a few days ago.
If you cant find it there try a paint store like Shermam wills
I used it for it's intended purpose lol..

[HrVanker]

I just bought xylene from home d a few days ago.
If you cant find it there try a paint store like Shermam wills
I used it for it's intended purpose lol..

Home Depot in another state 45min away sells it as well. So I'm wondering if it's a state law thing. I'll check Sherwin Williams though.

[pharmer]

Years ago people in California were saying they couldn't find xylene or toluene or many other VOC's. If memory serves they were banned by the state when pushed by environmentalists. I doubt the condition has reversed itself.

 

many VOC's are just byproducts of gasoline refining.

 

people use it to degrease auto parts before recycling. you know, for the planet.  people like how much better the parts degrease and how quickly the parts dry off after the degreasing.

Edited by pharmer, 19 August 2019 - 12:51 PM.

[Juthro]

If your in a state that will sell them, a lot of auto parts stores (like NAPA) cary automotive paints and solvents like xylene.

[Norman]

So, it seems that big box stores don't sell xylene or toluene. All the thinners are mineral spirits or low VOC solvents.
Does anyone have experience with limonene? Is it easy to work with? Can I defat with it?

That thread you linked to earlier has some discussion of limonene with ofne of the guys from the Nexus. I’ve heard that it works but it doesn’t seem to be the wonder solvent it was thought to be when people first started using it.

[HrVanker]

So, it seems that big box stores don't sell xylene or toluene. All the thinners are mineral spirits or low VOC solvents.
Does anyone have experience with limonene? Is it easy to work with? Can I defat with it?

That thread you linked to earlier has some discussion of limonene with ofne of the guys from the Nexus. I’ve heard that it works but it doesn’t seem to be the wonder solvent it was thought to be when people first started using it.

I had seen mention of it there. But I didn't see defatting with it specifically mentioned.

I haven't made it to any other stores yet (dog sitting a young puppy), but I'll check. Do you have any thoughts on using naptha? I have a feeling it may be easier to come by.

[Norman]

Probably fine for defat no good for extraction.