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Fun with Hitchens


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#21 gonefishen

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 05:04 PM

It is a live call in show you can call and put your idea out for the world to hear if your confident enough. Or maybe I should say brave enough to have your beliefs held to the proverbial fire and see if they actually hold any water.

 

Knowing what I know about the show though I very much doubt they would put a whole lot of weight in a observation that a person thinks they have had while they're brain is knowingly altered on a drug. I tend to think using dmt and like substances help to perhaps see things from fresh angles but a gateway to the "truth" well I wouldn't go that far. For my 2 cents it's useful for alot of things but if i didn't know the answer to the meaning of life entering a trip I very much doubt my brain would some how acquire that information by putting "my brain on drugs".  Just my 2 cents...


Edited by gonefishen, 08 September 2019 - 05:16 PM.


#22 TVCasualty

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Posted 08 September 2019 - 06:51 PM

It is a live call in show you can call and put your idea out for the world to hear if your confident enough. Or maybe I should say brave enough to have your beliefs held to the proverbial fire and see if they actually hold any water.

 

Knowing what I know about the show though I very much doubt they would put a whole lot of weight in a observation that a person thinks they have had while they're brain is knowingly altered on a drug. I tend to think using dmt and like substances help to perhaps see things from fresh angles but a gateway to the "truth" well I wouldn't go that far. For my 2 cents it's useful for alot of things but if i didn't know the answer to the meaning of life entering a trip I very much doubt my brain would some how acquire that information by putting "my brain on drugs".  Just my 2 cents...

 

 

I know they wouldn't. And they shouldn't, because it would be entirely anecdotal and would not be valid in a scientific sense.

 

That said, our entire lives are "anecdotal."

 

The important thing is that we don't assume our own anecdotes are "the truth." I consider what I've experienced under the influence of psychedelics to be "puzzling evidence," which is not the same as Truth but not necessarily different from it, either. I guess it goes back to that old notion of seeking out those who are searching for The Truth but running like hell away from those who claimed to have found it.

 

This becomes a bit trickier to parse when we consider that ALL of our experiences are contexts where our brains were "on drugs." Most of the time it's one of the usual suspects, i.e., dopamine, serotonin, adrenaline, oxytocin, or endorphins (among others), which some label as "natural highs."

 

I have a few things in my own Puzzling Evidence file that are examples of things I knew after a mushroom trip that I had never learned elsewhere. There is more than one way that that can occur, however.


Edited by TVCasualty, 08 September 2019 - 07:38 PM.


#23 Alder Logs

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Posted 09 September 2019 - 02:17 PM

I decided to try just this, I put my washcloth over my face and put my face under the shower head.  That was enough to show me waterboarding.  I barely waterboarded myself.  No questions now.


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#24 TVCasualty

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 12:29 PM

That seems a much quicker and easier way to do it than Hitchens chose. Adding the rest of the stuff that was involved in his experience only enriches and deepens one's reflexive panic, I imagine.


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#25 Alder Logs

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Posted 10 September 2019 - 12:49 PM

I have never been one prone to panic (this is fairly typical of ADHD types), but when I did the shower/washcloth test, the effect was instant.   It was shocking to me.



#26 TVCasualty

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Posted 09 November 2019 - 03:44 PM

I found a video of Hitchens eviscerating a racist jackass that I personally used to harass when I was in High School back in Fallbrook, CA (my parents got us out of LA as soon as they could, lol). The Metzgers lived next door to one of my best friends, so this interview was especially satisfying to watch (Tom was a former Grand Wizard of the Triple-K and he and his son John founded the White Aryan Resistance when the Triple-K got too soft).

 

The Meztgers are scum, and I used to mess with them back in the day by calling their WAR (White Aryan Resistance) info-hotline and leaving totally fucked-up messages intended to make them paranoid. It was like calling an answering machine that had a 5-minute message about stupid Nazi stuff followed by a "beep" after which a caller could leave a message. Their followers stuffed neo-Nazi leaflets into our lockers at school periodically so I figured their hotline was fair game, lol. At the time they lived in a sad single-wide trailer that was surrounded by a 12-foot high razor-wire topped fence and patrolled by two vicious dobermans (the fence was 10 feet from the trailer as the lot was very small; it looked utterly ridiculous). They needed the security since lot of people fucked with them, as you might imagine.

 

My friend said people even shot arrows through the fence into his trailer at night a few times, but mostly threw rocks. The archer was probably the cashier at the local Safeway who'd been offended when John (the baby-Nazi) refused to allow her to touch his groceries because she was African American but the people at the store said he'd used a different and extremely offensive term when referring to her (the incident made the local news due to the heated exchange it spawned).

 

But I'm not posting this just because it's a nostalgic trip through my memories of fucking with Nazis back in High School but because the concerns and issues raised are relevant again, or rather still as relevant as ever. And not only is it relevant, it is also an example of a very effective way to deal with them and make them look like the idiots they are, unlike the screaming matches that today's contentious interviews largely consist of.

 

[Direct Link]

 

Warning: Do NOT listen to it with headphones. There is a sound at 28:24 that will wreck your whole day, and maybe your hearing.


Edited by TVCasualty, 09 November 2019 - 03:47 PM.

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#27 TVCasualty

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Posted 31 March 2020 - 01:36 PM

Some people think I'm too strident in my opposition to the scourge that is religion.

 

Or that I'm being hyperbolic when I agree with Hitchens about how it poisons everything, since a "poison" is a tangible threat to our lives and health while many think of religion as merely being ideas and beliefs and so can't be equated with poison.
 
If nothing else, recent events are providing strong support for the contention that religion is bad for everyone's health, both individually and collectively.
 
They're so scientifically illiterate (and willfully so) that they're exposing themselves as the worthless, self-serving hypocrites they are while simultaneously being directly responsible for an untold number of otherwise-preventable deaths (and prolonged suffering among those who don't die) thanks to their own arrogantly-smug stupidity.
 
It's gotten so bad with these assholes that a County Sheriff even arrested a Pastor in Florida this past Sunday (for being a total dumbass, basically)! I'd expect that sort of thing if it were an Imam or some hippies having a picnic, but a Christian Pastor arrested in the South by a Republican Sheriff?!? Holy shit (so to speak), this really IS a different world now.
 
The rampant ignorance spawned by religion is even more fatal than usual these days. So pour yourself a steaming cup of sacred virus-curing cow urine and see for yourself:
 
Some recent examples (and dots worth connecting):

https://www.nytimes....ty-falwell.html

https://www.nytimes....oronavirus.html

https://www.nytimes....a-florida.html?

https://www.theatlan...ecurity/608986/
 
From the Atlantic article:
 

Other conservatives have framed protective measures as a threat not only to America’s rugged individualism but to masculinity. The Christian pastor Jonathan Shuttlesworth referred to social distancers as “sissies” and “pansies” who have been “neutered,” and described Christians who use hand sanitizer as having “fake faith” and “no balls.” Another minister said he would never close his church, because his congregants were not “pansies.”  Some politicians, including the lieutenant governor of Texas, and pundits, including Glenn Beck, have gone so far as to suggest that older Americans should be willing to risk death to preserve the economy.

 
 
Okay Mr. Beck, so how about you set the example and euthanize yourself? It would be a public service on multiple levels.
 
And besides being apparent that many theologians are obviously repressed homosexuals overly obsessed with male genitalia and have no regard or respect for women, they are also apparently immature and insecure to the degree that just about all of my friends' teenage kids are more rational, eloquent, informed, and mature than these fools (even the ones that aren't exactly stellar students, but at least none of them are so stupid as to fall for Creationism or that 6000-year old Earth lunacy).
 
[FYI: To view articles on The Atlantic or any other partially-paywalled site after using up your 3 free articles for the month just paste the link to this proxy to get around it: https://www.proxysite.com/ ]
 

This one features the most disturbing photo I've seen in years (and is the only time Trump has ever looked genuinely happy as far as I know), and I think it explains a whole lot more than it appears at first glance:

https://www.nytimes....ngelicals.html?
 
Incidentally, the NY Times changed the title of that article a few hours after it was published. The original title was less-diplomatic but arguably more-accurate: "The Road to Coronavirus Hell Was Paved by Evangelicals."


But wait there's more!!

 

The shady connections detailed in the following article are extensive, weaving through government and religious organizations and corrupt-as-fuck lawyers, etc..

 

In this case it was Michael motherfucking Cohen again, and as expected he was wrapped up in some really twisted religion/government/corruption/sex stuff, in this case involving a sexy pool boy that Mr. and Mrs. Falwell took a liking to and so brought along with them on their private jet as a boy-toy for some swingin' fun:

 

https://www.nytimes....ael-cohen.html?

 

Be sure to remove all of your clothes and immediately put them in a washing machine, then take a hot shower with lots of soap and scrubbing, and then put on clean clothes as soon as you finish reading that article. puke


Edited by TVCasualty, 31 March 2020 - 01:37 PM.


#28 Oneyedraven

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 01:24 PM

Tv
I throughly enjoy reading your writings here but
it sounds like you’re throwing the baby out with the bath water on religions as a whole.

There are and have been bad and good religious leaders.

Denying the (is all that is-ness) of religions as a whole seems counter intuitive to the psychedelic experience.

As many of us know first hand it is damn near impossible to “eff the ineffable” many of us here have had experiences with a source of being or “is-ness” .

That experience leads us to further explore that domain and help others to experience it as well.

Since the dawn of time whether it’s the ancient sumarians An and Enki, the Vikings Thor , or the Egyptian Ra - most religions strive to connect and help others others to align to this source of is- ness (via the religion of the time or culture)

Many of those paths include living a good life (ie good karma), treating others as you would be treated, and the understanding that sacrifice is part of
Life experience. Self Sacrifice IS what gives meaning to life. ( and no I don’t mean human sacrifice)

How many of us took a “normal”life for granted just a few weeks ago, and how much more will we enjoy the simple things like a store with fully stocked shelves and being with others when this is all over- that kind of sacrifice


No denying there are bad people, bad leaders, bad bosses, bad parents and bad children. And bad religious leaders
We have proof of that (billions of bodies)

One of the popular Christian sayings is God is love, which means the inverse is also true, love is God.

It sounds like you are more concerned about bad religious leaders than the idea of a group honoring a concept like love or sacrifice.


Edited by Oneyedraven, 01 April 2020 - 01:44 PM.


#29 TVCasualty

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 02:15 PM

I disagree in the strongest possible terms.

 

I see religion as anathema to spirituality to the degree that they are in direct opposition.

 

There are no religion-babies, only bathwater. Anything resembling a "baby" worth saving is only incidentally connected to religion; religious leaders are individuals and if they do good things then it's in spite of or incidental to their faith. The charitable works done in the name of religions do not need religions to be accomplished, and in fact when religions are involved in "helping" people they tend to be pretty fucked up and arguably make things worse (e.g. the fraud that is "Mother" Teresa is a glaring example).

 

That's also not taking into account the role religions play in directly creating so much need for charity work in the first place. As just one example, it would be very hard to quantify the level of unnecessary suffering and death (and number of abortions!) that have resulted directly from the Catholic Church's admonitions against contraception (or laws it lobbied to pass when they could get away with legislating their arbitrary notions of morality).

 

Hitchens makes a very compelling case (among other people), much more eloquently than I can.

 

I'll back off on my stridency once religions can be studied as historical phenomenons and are no longer actively encouraging potentially-fatal ignorance in the face of a global pandemic or are empowering their followers' ignorance and self-righteous arrogance by doing shit like opportunistically banning abortions as "non essential" health care, which is insane and as bad for women as religion has always been.


Edited by TVCasualty, 01 April 2020 - 02:17 PM.


#30 Alder Logs

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 03:03 PM

No institution, having done bad acting, should ever be allowed a "but we're so much better now" pass.   Maybe people should get more than one strike, but institutions?  No.   Gangs, whether their identities are based in territory or a writing of a history, are gangs, coming together for advantages that no individual can easily stand up to.  That's why the gangs stay together.   It's self preservation and advantage that makes for their being.   They all want each of us to be their bitches.



#31 August West

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 03:39 PM

One of the popular Christian sayings is God is love, which means the inverse is also true, love is God.

FWIW, the inverse of this saying is not inherently what you've suggested. It's as simple as if I said, "All hammers are tools so all tools are hammers". It's especially the case with something as personal as Christian belief. At least a hammer is a tangible object. But perhaps I digress?
 



#32 Alder Logs

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 04:08 PM

Christianity: Sorry, Jesus, we have repeatedly fucked up, trying to immortalize a story of you.  Therefore, seeing over millennia, that we never seem to get the job done without seriously fucking it up, we see it's high time we completely disbanded all Christian sects, in effect, making them cease to be.  I know it can't make up for all the harm done, so this is the least we can do and still be able to look in our mirrors.   I hope, in your omniscient wisdom and power, you will smite any who insist on keeping going what we now see was always never better than a scam, at the levels of organization.  There can be no good in keeping it going, as we, in all honesty can now see.  Once again, sorry Lord.  


Edited by Alder Logs, 01 April 2020 - 04:11 PM.


#33 Oneyedraven

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 05:16 PM

One of the popular Christian sayings is God is love, which means the inverse is also true, love is God.

FWIW, the inverse of this saying is not inherently what you've suggested. It's as simple as if I said, "All hammers are tools so all tools are hammers". It's especially the case with something as personal as Christian belief. At least a hammer is a tangible object. But perhaps I digress?

Depends on your perspective, from the nails’ point of view all tools are potential hammers.

#34 Alder Logs

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 05:18 PM

Or nail pullers?


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#35 Oneyedraven

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 05:46 PM

No doubt, there are many paths to enlightenment


Edited by Oneyedraven, 01 April 2020 - 09:18 PM.


#36 TVCasualty

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Posted 01 April 2020 - 10:26 PM

It sounds like you are more concerned about bad religious leaders than the idea of a group honoring a concept like love or sacrifice.

 

I had to think about that for a minute before responding.

 

What I realized is that one of the things that infuriates me about organized religion is how it often corrupts and perverts the idea of a group honoring a concept like love or sacrifice and turns it into a vehicle for serving the interests of those at the top of whichever religion one chooses to look at.

 

Sometimes that's in the form of personal enrichment (I need a private jet for Jesus!), sometimes it's for a political agenda, and most of the time it's for both.

 

It seems to be a natural consequence of the peculiar hierarchies that the people who made up the various religions put in place, almost like they were co-opting the best of our nature by design and through greed and selfishness turned it into a manifestation of the worst.

 

There are plenty of genuinely good individuals who embody empathy and compassion who are also religious leaders (and would be regardless of their religious beliefs, I'd guess), but the nature of religion itself and they way it's organized facilitates profound atrocities when such leaders are ...not so compassionate or empathetic.

 

 

Another thing that kind of pisses me off is the fact that some of these oh-so-loving groups are going to be partly responsible for the untimely deaths of people we love in this pandemic (all of us will probably lose at least one by the time it's over). But at the same time, they're also spreading it far and wide among and within their congregations and most of them are in the high-risk category. The scale of basic scientific ignorance in the United States (among other places) that causes this kind of madness is unconscionable, and ironically most dangerous to those who promote it the loudest.

 

Maybe this pandemic eventually decimating the ranks of the the hard-core, intransigent True Believers (and in particular their leaders) who keep gathering too close is how the spirit-that-moves-in-all-things will save us from a world where several competing Theocracies that preach Messianic belief systems and possess Apocalyptic weapons (apologies to Hitchens) inevitably get too pissed off at each other and push The Button, rendering our entire species extinct in minutes?

 

It would be none too soon since the U.S. seems poised to slide into some kind of theocratic Dark Ages v2.0, too many other countries are already there, and the most logical thing for a True Believer in a Messianic religion to do if given the chance would be to press that button and bring about the End Times so they can get to Heaven ASAP.



#37 August West

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 12:00 AM

Depends on your perspective, from the nails’ point of view all tools are potential hammers.

Well I'm definitely not paying you to frame my house if you're driving nails with a screw driver.
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#38 Oneyedraven

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 09:17 AM

With the nail / hammer reply my goal was to point out it depends on how you define “hammer” and from which perspective. Our society’s definition of hammer would be very different than say prehistoric man definition of hammer. And from which perspective is hammer defined?

That being said, in reference to the God=love and love=God.

In particular when the English term “God” is broadened to the understanding of “God”- as the (energy) that extends to all of reality. (ie The is-ness of reality)
For the (energy) of reality to continue to exist love (positive energy) at its most basic understanding must be present. As “positive” energy creates and “negative” energy destroys.
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#39 Oneyedraven

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 09:53 AM

TV

I do agree with you that the human condition applied to a spiritual organization does tend to corrupt the very good that the organization was supposed to represent.

But not always - meaning I wouldn’t consider the Mother Theresa’s of the world the same as the Tammy Fays or Jim Bakers.

Which is one of the reasons I (try) to look to the older (thousands of years) religions and their established beliefs rather than the current leader of a religion or sect.

Just as I wouldn’t condemn democracy/Republics (as a concept) based solely on the current leadership in the US.
Similarly I would not condemn the ideal of a group of humans honoring love and sacrifice based solely on their current leadership.

To me the intriguing thing about Christianity is it introduced the concept of the divinity of each individual, not being dependent on your birth identity but your existence alone. The idea that
Each individual is divine and created in Gods image is what eventually gave birth to the idea that each human has
Rights, rights that are (God given) which underpins our current global understanding of human rights and democracy.


FWIW - For western religions anyway I look at
Judaism as the “how to” instructions for
How a society is to live and prosper and Christianity as the “why” or ideals explanation.

Either way defined religion or not the Archetypes and stories portrayed in Religions as a whole pervade through all of human history as being true.

Edited by Oneyedraven, 02 April 2020 - 10:01 AM.


#40 Alder Logs

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Posted 02 April 2020 - 11:13 AM

If this Love/God, or God/Love is some character, He/She probably looks at repeated attempts at establishment of religions and says, "These goddamned people; what are you going to do?   Everything good that comes up in their experience, they gotta set up a committee."

 

I empathize with wanting to have a good gang, but try to see where it leads.  We have to start overlooking shortfalls in order to keep the scams going.  If having any sort of gang weren't a lie in the first place, we wouldn't need the lies to keep them going.  Hey, this Jesus story is up there on a par with the Moses story, maybe we've got something here. Pretty soon it's, These guys have a Muhammad story they say supplants the guys with either the Moses or the Jesus story. 

 

What if I say there was this Shiva cat and I got in really tight with his kid, you know, the one with the elephant's head; He really greases the skids for me.  Maybe I should ask Him to just wipe out all those other stories' adherents because they don't believe in what I wish to believe. 

 

No, I say, don't believe anything to be more, or other, than it is in this present instant.  And for sure, don't be naming what it is, as this present instant is too big and unlimited for that.  To see it as anything in conceptual terms is to see it as it's not.  Personal identities, and religious stories, are all bullshit.   Nothing is what we, or anyone else, thinks it is.  Are you able to see it, short of about ten grams all at once on a good night? 

 

When all the bullshit is blown away, and there are no words to explain what is beheld in the presence of an all-encompassing NOW, that's WHAT IS.   Writing a book about It is never going to be It.   Doing a dance about It ain't going to be It.

 

It is What Is, right fucking NOW!  

 

Taking It at any remove is to miss It.  Yet, we try as we might, and someday, down some road, we come back to going to war for our particular version, versus someone else's version.  It comes back to holy wars, slavery, caste systems, and basically, living the lie of separation from What Is. 

 

Sad, when we could all just be.


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